Before a part 61 school run its business, is that school checked by FAA?

7

78joy

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Messages
2
Display Name
Display name:
78joy
Hi everybody,
I have a question on definition of pt 61 school.
I thought that the name of pt 61 school is not official name and such name is used to distinguish from FAA certified school(pt 141, 142 schools). But I am getting doubt of what I thought.
Is pt 61 school certified by FAA as the school runs its business under pt 61 rule? Does anybody know? Thank you.
 
78joy said:
Hi everybody,
I have a question on definition of pt 61 school.
I thought that the name of pt 61 school is not official name and such name is used to distinguish from FAA certified school(pt 141, 142 schools). But I am getting doubt of what I thought.
Is pt 61 school certified by FAA as the school runs its business under pt 61 rule? Does anybody know? Thank you.
Click to expand...

No certification or approval by the FAA. They may come around later if something goes wrong but in the FAA's books there is no entity like a 'part 61 flight school'.

You don't even have to be a CFI to open a flight school. All you need is a stack of business cards, a lease with the airport, a leased plane and a leased soda machine.
 
Last edited:
weilke said:
No certification or approval by the FAA. They may come around later if something goes wrong but there is no entity like a 'part 61 flight school'.

You don't even have to be a CFI to open a flight school. All you need is a stack of business cards, a lease with the airport, a leased plane and a leased soda machine.
Click to expand...
I disagree vehemently. Soda machine optional. Coffee and place to pee mandatory.

And while you don't have to be a CFI, it's usually a good idea to have one of those leased too.

IOW, @78joy, @weilke is absolutely correct. The FAA does not certify or approve flight schools that teach under Part 61 rules.
 
weilke, Mark, thank you both!
 
You can compare an independent CFI or FBO giving flight instruction under Part 61 rather than having an air agency certificate under 141 to an independent A&P or FBO providing aircraft maintenance under the A&P's Part 65 certificate rather than having an air agency certificate under 145. In both 141 and 145, the business entity itself is certificated after going through an approval process by the FAA. This puts the business under a planned surveillance program by the FAA. However, not being an air agency or not being employed by one does not exempt the independent A&P or CFI from surveillance. The FAA does do ad hoc surveillance of these individuals. The FAA does know who these folks are. Also a CFI and an A&P with IA are subject to a renewal process. So there is oversight.

However one should note that an independent CFI or A&P on the whole can provide as quality of a service or better as does the 141 or 145 and usually do so at a better price. Plus the independents can provide more flexibility in how it does things which can be beneficial to the user.
 
And here I thought a vending machine with stale popcorn was mandatory....

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::biggrin:
 
Luckily pt61 schools can run without government interference and pounds of red tape. I've done, and given, all my instruction pt61
 
I've recieved all my instruction (except military) and ratings (except military) under part 61 and I instruct under part 61. No problem.
 
midlifeflyer said:
And while you don't have to be a CFI, it's usually a good idea to have one of those leased too.
Click to expand...

Having a CFI for the flight school owner only creates the risk of wasting his time on instruction when it could be better used on marketing and customer relations.
 
weilke said:
Having a CFI for the flight school owner only creates the risk of wasting his time on instruction when it could be better used on marketing and customer relations.
Click to expand...
Marketing and customer relations? In an aviation business, especially an FBO flight school? What is this, a fantasy? :D
 
midlifeflyer said:
Marketing and customer relations? In an aviation business, especially an FBO flight school? What is this, a fantasy? :D
Click to expand...

And right there is one of the reasons why most aviation businesses suck.
 
At least one 61 school I know of has regular inspection visits/audits (?) by TSA folks. Auditing who was trained and the ID stuff I suppose. I don't have details.
 
weilke said:
Having a CFI for the flight school owner only creates the risk of wasting his time on instruction when it could be better used on marketing and customer relations.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the start-up flight school business doesn't pay well enough to have multiple CFI's on staff as well as the owner doing marketing and customer relations. It's a balance... but our little flight school is making it work!

PS, not interference with the FAA. We have a part 91 LOA for sightseeing so that involved a little paperwork but other than that the FAA hasn't said/done/inspected anything. The airport has minimum standards which must be followed though and I believe those are based on FAA guidance.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Unfortunately the start-up flight school business doesn't pay well enough to have multiple CFI's on staff as well as the owner doing marketing and customer relations. It's a balance... but our little flight school is making it work!

PS, not interference with the FAA. We have a part 91 LOA for sightseeing so that involved a little paperwork but other than that the FAA hasn't said/done/inspected anything. The airport has minimum standards which must be followed though and I believe those are based on FAA guidance.
Click to expand...

Depends on how you do it, I did quite well.

Also the sightseeing is a whole nother animal.
 
denverpilot said:
At least one 61 school I know of has regular inspection visits/audits (?) by TSA folks. Auditing who was trained and the ID stuff I suppose. I don't have details.
Click to expand...

The FBO I instruct at part time also gets audited. I think it is pretty safe to assume they get the audit because their business is easy to see and easily targeted, compared to the independent CFI that teaches in his own airplane out of his T hangar or customer owned planes.
 
denverpilot said:
At least one 61 school I know of has regular inspection visits/audits (?) by TSA folks. Auditing who was trained and the ID stuff I suppose. I don't have details.
Click to expand...
Standard reasons for TSA flight school audits are the ones you mentioned and confirming the CFIs are up to date on their annual TSA recurrent training.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Standard reasons for TSA flight school audits are the ones you mentioned and confirming the CFIs are up to date on their annual TSA recurrent training.
Click to expand...

I thought the standard reason was to justify their existence?
 
78joy said:
Hi everybody,
I have a question on definition of pt 61 school.
I thought that the name of pt 61 school is not official name and such name is used to distinguish from FAA certified school(pt 141, 142 schools). But I am getting doubt of what I thought.
Is pt 61 school certified by FAA as the school runs its business under pt 61 rule? Does anybody know? Thank you.
Click to expand...

Short answer is no.

A CFI or CFII can provide instruction to a student or pilot under part 61. There is no requirement for there to be a school, a company or an airplane. Its a method of instruction where the student and the instructor meet and go do their thing with whatever structure and regimentation that the instructor and student agree upon. The only regulations involved are that the instructor have a pilots certificate and an instructor rating, and that the PIC for the flight ensures the airplane is airworthy (typically the instructor for the instructional flight). The only inspections that occur in this setting are typically for cause (an accident, or a complaint) or a random ramp check. If I was an instructor, and you were a student, and we had access to a plane, and the plane's owner was ok with it, we could go conduct part 61 training. And you could use any other instructor you wanted, and fly anyone else's planes you could get permission for.

Part 141 and other "formal" schools are regulated, regimented, and have a bunch of rules that organize how training is supposed to progress. By attending one of these formal, regulated schools, the pilot can accomplish certification with less required hours/instruction (in theory), and if the students are veterans they can use their GI bill to pay for it (which is not allowed for part 61). I believe most of these schools have their own in-house examiners as well for the checkride.. but I am not certain.

Part 61 is come and go as you want kind of structure. Part 141 and formal schools are more of a full time, scheduled, regimented process.
 
Whether the place you fly is 61 or 141 really doesn't matter as much as how competent your instructor is. I've seen good and bad at both places. 141 gets you thru with less hours (which always isn't a good thing) and quite often they have their own DPE on staff (which always isn't a good thing). What seems to be a prevalent problem these days is a lot of instructors will start you out and then leave for the regionals when they have their hours. Know several students who are working with their 4th and 5th instructors because of this. Can't impress enough on the ability of the instructor to teach--that should be your main concern -- not 61 or 141. Both teach flying.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Standard reasons for TSA flight school audits are the ones you mentioned and confirming the CFIs are up to date on their annual TSA recurrent training.
Click to expand...

I just realized I will get the great joy for supreme happiness of annual TSA training soon. Oh goodie. Does it come with a capsule of cyanide in case I decide I want out? LOL.
 
denverpilot said:
I just realized I will get the great joy for supreme happiness of annual TSA training soon. Oh goodie. Does it come with a capsule of cyanide in case I decide I want out? LOL.
Click to expand...
It's really so silly as to be worthless. You can literally take the exact same course every year and it all comes down to noticing someone who doesn't appear to belong and having the sense to differentiate between "Hi, can I help you?" and calling the cops.

The "good news" is some organizations that provide online CFI renewal courses, like Gleim and King, not only include it in the course, but provide it separately as a freebie, so you can at least get differing takes on the same theme.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's really so silly as to be worthless. You can literally take the exact same course every year and it all comes down to noticing someone who doesn't appear to belong and having the sense to differentiate between "Hi, can I help you?" and calling the cops.

The "good news" is some organizations that provide online CFI renewal courses, like Gleim and King, not only include it in the course, but provide it separately as a freebie, so you can at least get differing takes on the same theme.
Click to expand...

Sounds about as useful as the corporate "security awareness" courses. Of course, the last place I was at that mandated those, they walked the CEO out in handcuffs... So I guess we know where the real threat was... LOL.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top