Beech C23 Sundowner 4-1-1

Ventucky Red

Ventucky Red

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
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Display name:
Jon
Hi,

Thoughts and/or impression these birds?

Thanks
 
Well built. Big, heavy, comfortable. No speed demon. I've had the one in my avatar since 1999.

Check out Beech Aero Club. It is an excellent resource, and there is more knowledge there than you could ever want.

The reputation is that parts are hard to source. But so far I've never had a problem. There are some specific parts which need replacement, and there are STC'd sources for most of them. And, if you APIA is okay with OPPs, you have more options.

They are a great trainer and very stable instrument platform. It's very hard to get them to stall, most just mush downwards. I have never seen a tendency to spin in mine.

The baggage compartment is bigger than my 182. The rear seats can be removed, individually or together, without tools. The engine is usually an O-360-A4K, which is a very reliable powerplant.

Put 2 full 5-gal soft plastic water jugs in the back, watch you airspeed and you will never have a problem landing them. Plus, you'll never be thirsty...
 
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Flew a Sundowner for nine years, loved it. My bride and I traveled everywhere from OC MD to Rapid City SD , south to Waco TX , and NE to Maine. Fun travel machine, roomy, easy keeper, and flight planned for 110 knots all day long. Second what Les mentioned, Join the Beech Aero Club for the most info and the mouse hunt document before buying. https://www.beechaeroclub.org/bac-visitors/
 
If you check out Beech Aero Club, you will likely find someone in your area who has one and is willing to give you a ride. I've done that for local pilots.
 
I did my private training in one. They are built very solid. Slow and steady was great for me as a student.
 
My first plane. "forgiving" may not apply to landings, which desire a certain amount of airspeed accuracy to avoid a porpoised landing (or just land with power all the time :D )

I never saw more than 850fpm in climb unless I was stupid light.

Roomy and 2 doors are great. ~110kts at 10gph is less so.
 
Last summer I purchased a 1969 B23 Musketeer. This plane is basically a Sundowner with only one door, having the same 180hp Lycoming O360 and the same airframe.

Personally, I think the baby Beeches get a bad rap sometimes. The early Musketeers, with the smaller engines, are a bit underpowered but the later planes aren't bad at all. The performance is pretty close to a Cherokee 180 of the same vintage. I'm seeing true airspeed around 120 knots or a little more, and the Cherokee 180 has a book number of 124 knots in cruise. Not a huge difference.

A few points to keep in mind:

- The Beeches are a bit nose heavy. Pay attention to the CG location. There's an aft ballast weight available for installation, or you can just throw some weight into the baggage area. If you don't, they'll cruise nose high and be slower. They'll also be difficult to land and in extreme cases can run out of elevator authority.

- Unlike a Cherokee, the Beeches do not tolerate a wide range of landing speeds. Be at your target airspeed on final and they'll land just fine, especially if your CG isn't at the forward limit (see above). If you're not on speed coming over the fence, shove in the throttle and go around.

- The Beech has 60 gallons of fuel capacity. If you're comparing range and useful weight, but sure to compare apples to apples. The Cherokee 180 only has 50 gallon capacity, so run the numbers with only 50 gallons in the Beech to get a true comparison. Pundits like to simply say, "With full tanks,..." but a filled Beech will have 60lbs more fuel.

- I spent a lot of rental hours in Warriors and Cherokee 140s. In my opinion, the Beech handles better in the air with greater sensitivity to its controls. On the ground, the Beech's nosewheel steering isn't very effective, though, so expect to do most of your turning with assistance from the toe brakes.

- Beech has a reputation for solid, well-built, quality airplanes. That reputation is deserved and is reflected in the baby Beeches just as in the higher end models.
 
I was talking this morning to a new arrival at our airport that has a '73 Sundowner. He says is a ground lover. I've met him a couple of times and seen the plane in the hangar but never seen it fly. If I understood him correctly he's still in training for a certificate.
 
Perhaps, but the 5 gal plastic jugs are my automatic fire suppression system. ; )

The Lil Beeches are nose heavy, but no more so than my 182. I have 10 gal of water in the back of that, too.

I added the Aft Ballast Weight. There were two that were optional extras at purchase. I believe an 11 lb and 22 lb variety. The 11 lb is most common now, and is an OPP. People rave over it, and it does help cure the nose heavy attitude. Bonus points for lightweight starters and alternators.

Nosewheel steering works fairly well, but the cables and parts are rare and expensive. Always lead with the brakes and hold with the pedals. Replacing brake linings is a lot easier and cheaper than redoing the nosewheel steering.

The key is, as said above, speed on touchdown. They will punish you if you're too fast or too slow. I think they are a little more tolerant of speed variations at 2/3 flaps, if you have a little extra runway.
 
LesGawlik said:
Well built. Big, heavy, comfortable. No speed demon. I've had the one in my avatar since 1999.

Check out Beech Aero Club. It is an excellent resource, and there is more knowledge there than you could ever want.

The reputation is that parts are hard to source. But so far I've never had a problem. There are some specific parts which need replacement, and there are STC'd sources for most of them. And, if you APIA is okay with OPPs, you have more options.

They are a great trainer and very stable instrument platform. It's very hard to get them to stall, most just mush downwards. I have never seen a tendency to spin in mine.

The baggage compartment is bigger than my 182. The rear seats can be removed, individually or together, without tools. The engine is usually an O-360-A4K, which is a very reliable powerplant.

Put 2 full 5-gal soft plastic water jugs in the back, watch you airspeed and you will never have a problem landing them. Plus, you'll never be thirsty...
Click to expand...
Please recommend VFR pattern airspeeds/ flap settings for the Sundonwer. Thanks.
 
Cookie2 said:
Please recommend VFR pattern airspeeds/ flap settings for the Sundonwer. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I have a B23, very similar to the C23 (Sundowner). I use an approach speed of 75-80mph (65-70 knots) and land with full flaps. Typically, I slow to about 100mph on downwind, pull power back abeam the numbers, and put in the first notch of flaps. On base I put in the second notch and slow to 90 mph. I then judge when to put in the third notch, often on final. On final I get it slowed to a little under 80 mph. I try to be slightly over 75mph crossing the fence with the engine just a little over idle. Touchdown is usually a bit under 60mph with the stall horn sounding.

Various variations for wind and traffic, of course.

Be sure to raise the flaps before braking.
 
Owner of a '67 Musketeer going on nine years now. Pretty much second what everyone else has said. They are fine planes similar to the performance of a Warrior but roomier.

My additions to the conversation:
> Abeam the numbers I am 90kts and put first notch of flaps in. Base is 80 kts with two notches. Final is at 70 kts.
> On longer runways, two notches of flaps is just fine. Three notches if I want a steeper decent.
> I find carrying just a bit of power into the flair then gently pulling to idle just as I round out makes for a nice smooth landing.
> If you bounce a landing (and you will) do nothing. Freeze your controls movements and let the plane settle down again. Overcontrolling on a bounce can get you into trouble.
> Ballast in the baggage area is a must as an aft CG improves performance and lightens the control forces. I use this size box (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pen-Gear...t-11-L-x-7-5-W-x-5-5-H/584619863?from=/search) and fill to the top with sand. Each box is 30lbs and they don't take up much room. I carry between 3-5 boxes plus tools.
> Vortex generators markedly improve low speed and landing characteristics.
> I can carry two big guys of front, keep the CG at a reasonable place with baggage ballast, and still carry 35 gals of fuel.
 
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Papa Pilot said:
If you bounce a landing (and you will) do nothing. Freeze your controls movements and let the plane settle down again. Over contolling on a bounce can get you into trouble.
Click to expand...

You get one bounce for free. On a second bounce, don’t try to save the landing; shove in the throttle and go around. Porpoising, collapsed nose gear, and a prop strike await otherwise.
 
Half Fast said:
I have a B23, very similar to the C23 (Sundowner). I use an approach speed of 75-80mph (65-70 knots) and land with full flaps. Typically, I slow to about 100mph on downwind, pull power back abeam the numbers, and put in the first notch of flaps. On base I put in the second notch and slow to 90 mph. I then judge when to put in the third notch, often on final. On final I get it slowed to a little under 80 mph. I try to be slightly over 75mph crossing the fence with the engine just a little over idle. Touchdown is usually a bit under 60mph with the stall horn sounding.

Various variations for wind and traffic, of course.

Be sure to raise the flaps before braking.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Makes sense.
 
Papa Pilot said:
Owner of a '67 Musketeer going on nine years now. Pretty much second what everyone else has said. They are fine planes similar to the performance of a Warrior but roomier.

My additions to the conversation:
> Abeam the numbers I am 90kts and put first notch of flaps in. Base is 80 kts with two notches. Final is at 70 kts.
> On longer runways, two notches of flaps is just fine. Three notches if I want a steeper decent.
> I find carrying just a bit of power into the flair then gently pulling to idle just as I round out makes for a nice smooth landing.
> If you bounce a landing (and you will) do nothing. Freeze your controls movements and let the plane settle down again. Overcontrolling on a bounce can get you into trouble.
> Ballast in the baggage area is a must as an aft CG improves performance and lightens the control forces. I use this size box (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pen-Gear...t-11-L-x-7-5-W-x-5-5-H/584619863?from=/search) and fill to the top with sand. Each box is 30lbs and they don't take up much room. I carry between 3-5 boxes plus tools.
> Vortex generators markedly improve low speed and landing characteristics.
> I can carry two big guys of front, keep the CG at a reasonable place with baggage ballast, and still carry 35 gals of fuel.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Great info.
 
Half Fast said:
You get one bounce for free. On a second bounce, don’t try to save the landing; shove in the throttle and go around. Porpoising, collapsed nose gear, and a prop strike await otherwise.
Click to expand...
Copy that. Thanks.
 
Half Fast said:
You get one bounce for free. On a second bounce, don’t try to save the landing; shove in the throttle and go around. Porpoising, collapsed nose gear, and a prop strike await otherwise.
Click to expand...

:biggrin:
 
BillTIZ said:
Unless you like flat spotting tires. I think "Raise Flaps Before Braking" is a placard on the panel.
Click to expand...

It is. And I screwed up not long after getting the plane and flat spotted a tire. The placard is for real.
 
LesGawlik said:
Well built. Big, heavy, comfortable. No speed demon. I've had the one in my avatar since 1999.

Check out Beech Aero Club. It is an excellent resource, and there is more knowledge there than you could ever want.

The reputation is that parts are hard to source. But so far I've never had a problem. There are some specific parts which need replacement, and there are STC'd sources for most of them. And, if you APIA is okay with OPPs, you have more options.

They are a great trainer and very stable instrument platform. It's very hard to get them to stall, most just mush downwards. I have never seen a tendency to spin in mine.

The baggage compartment is bigger than my 182. The rear seats can be removed, individually or together, without tools. The engine is usually an O-360-A4K, which is a very reliable powerplant.

Put 2 full 5-gal soft plastic water jugs in the back, watch you airspeed and you will never have a problem landing them. Plus, you'll never be thirsty...
Click to expand...
Hello my friend. I use 50lbs lead bail bag and works great. Here some photos of my bird.
 

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