Beating the airlines

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
realistically what sort of aircraft do you need to beat the airlines door to door.

let's say you live 1 hour from the major airport and 15 minutes from your aircraft. trip length is 1000 miles.
 
WAY too many variables.

I can almost beat the airlines to Palmdale in a car, with all the overheads. A purple 737 saves me about 15 minutes. I can beat them by hours if I don't insist on a nonstop, or if I fly to LAX.

Now, that's only 350 miles, rather than 1000, but you can see where the variables come from.
 
A Malibu and willingness to pee in a container.
 
You need to take flight planning into consideration, as well as the fact you can be productive in the back of an airliner. Even sleeping is productive, as is reading a book.
 
Loaded question, but major hub to major hub, 1,000 miles, airline probably wins. But throw in a connection, with a destination that doesn't have a direct flight from your departure location? You might beat the door-to-door time in a 172.
 
Sundancer said:
Loaded question, but major hub to major hub, 1,000 miles, airline probably wins. But throw in a connection, with a destination that doesn't have a direct flight from your departure location? You might beat the door-to-door time in a 172.
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Exactly. Relation to hubs and the number of connections is everything.

In the Twin Beech at 150 kts, I can beat the airlines almost anywhere east of the Mississippi......but I live in Norfolk which is apparently the end of the known universe of hub and spoke systems.
 
Just completed a similar flight a few weeks ago in my 182. distance was 900 miles. I weighed my options vs flying commercial. Here are my numbers. First set is for commercial:
Distance to major airport: 2:10
time at airport before flight: 1hr
flight time: 2:40
time from de-planing after landing at major airport to destination: 1hr
total = approx. 6hrs 50 minutes

Numbers flying my 182:
Distance to local GA airport where plane is based: 10 minutes
flight time with 1 fuel stop: 7:40
time to destination after landing at local GA airport: 5 minutes
Approx total time: 8 hrs

Less money to fly GA as well when you consider passengers
 
MtnMarcus said:
Just completed a similar flight a few weeks ago in my 182. distance was 900 miles. I weighed my options vs flying commercial. Here are my numbers. First set is for commercial:
Distance to major airport: 2:10
time at airport before flight: 1hr
flight time: 2:40
time from de-planing after landing at major airport to destination: 1hr
total = approx. 6hrs 50 minutes

Numbers flying my 182:
Distance to local GA airport where plane is based: 10 minutes
flight time with 1 fuel stop: 7:40
time to destination after landing at local GA airport: 5 minutes
Approx total time: 8 hrs

Less money to fly GA as well when you consider passengers
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Aren't you being a little unrealistic about your times in the 182? 10 minutes from your door to taking off? 5 minutes from landing to your destination?

I'll compare Denver to San Francisco in the work airplane. After getting the call we have one hour to get there and one hour to take off, so a total of two hours. On the airline it's a one hour drive to DEN and two hours to get on the airplane, for a total of three hours. The flight times are approximately the same. So I would save one hour, in an airplane that is approximately the same speed as an airliner. The main difference is that we are unscheduled and can go when we want, whereas on the airline, you need to fly when they do.

Living in a hub and flying to a hub makes a big difference with airlines.
 
Everskyward said:
Aren't you being a little unrealistic about your times in the 182? 10 minutes from your door to taking off? 5 minutes from landing to your destination?

I'll compare Denver to San Francisco in the work airplane. After getting the call we have one hour to get there and one hour to take off, so a total of two hours. On the airline it's a one hour drive to DEN and two hours to get on the airplane, for a total of three hours. The flight times are approximately the same. So I would save one hour, in an airplane that is approximately the same speed as an airliner. The main difference is that we are unscheduled and can go when we want, whereas on the airline, you need to fly when they do.

Living in a hub and flying to a hub makes a big difference with airlines.
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no not really that why I said Approximately. If you wanna split hairs, maybe add 10-20 additional minutes.
 
MtnMarcus said:
Just completed a similar flight a few weeks ago in my 182. distance was 900 miles. I weighed my options vs flying commercial. Here are my numbers. First set is for commercial:
Distance to major airport: 2:10
time at airport before flight: 1hr
flight time: 2:40
time from de-planing after landing at major airport to destination: 1hr
total = approx. 6hrs 50 minutes

Numbers flying my 182:
Distance to local GA airport where plane is based: 10 minutes
flight time with 1 fuel stop: 7:40
time to destination after landing at local GA airport: 5 minutes
Approx total time: 8 hrs

Less money to fly GA as well when you consider passengers
Click to expand...
But what about flight planning and loss of productivity?
 
Door to door hours are rarely better via any GA flight over commercial when you factor in everything involved. The time you are "buying" however by flying GA is the flexibility and availibility to be on your own schedule and not the airlines and get into exactly where you need to go.

For something to be reasonable to be viable against a 1000 mile trip you would need something in the 200kt range. I have a 182 and at 130 knots my cut off is about 500 miles when spam cans make more sense than GA...and not always then.
 
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I think the shorter the flight the easier it is to beat the airlines.
a 2 hour drive to the hub, then security time, you probably have nearly a 4 hour jump on the airlines. and yes a change of aircraft with the airlines gives a big advantage personal aircraft.
I was asked this question by a A36 owner, that will be supporting his kid in university of Mt. at Butte.
I think he can beat the airlines even when they have service in Butte.
 
Sundancer said:
Loaded question, but major hub to major hub, 1,000 miles, airline probably wins. But throw in a connection, with a destination that doesn't have a direct flight from your departure location? You might beat the door-to-door time in a 172.
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Did just that, a couple of weeks ago.

My wife wanted to use her UAL miles to fly from Portland to Phoenix (a little over 1000 statute miles) to visit our son who was having foot surgery. The only itinerary she could "afford" with her miles involved a 5:45 AM departure from PDX and a long layover in SFO. So we left our Vancouver WA home at 4:00 am to drive her to PDX; our son picked her up at PHX, battled 20 miles of afternoon freeway traffic, and they arrived at his home in Avondale at 3 PM = 11 hours elapsed, door-to-door.

I flew the 172 to Goodyear AZ to join her a few days later, but made an overnight stop along the way. On the way home, though, I left our son's home at 5:30 AM, and drove the rental car the short distance to KGYR. I was off the ground at 6:20 AM and flew home to Vancouver WA with three fuel stops (only 40 gallon capacity to feed a 180-hp O-360). 7.9 hours on the tach, and I walked into our Vancouver condo at 4:15 PM = 10 hours 45 minutes elapsed, door-to-door.

Sure, she could have bought a more expensive ticket and beaten my time handily. But I had more fun and got some nice photos. Oh, and I was carrying a lot of baggage that would have been difficult (and expensive at UAL's prices) on the airline.
 
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Kritchlow said:
But what about flight planning and loss of productivity?
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route was super easy to plan. watched the weather leading up to the day of departure and a quick check the day of. Actually got some enroute weather which i had never done before. Regarding productivity, I had some great bonding time with my 13 yr old son, so yes very productive in my book. I am not one of those people who can work on a commercial flight. I am 6'2" and have a hard enough time fitting in my seat let alone trying to open a laptop!
 
MtnMarcus said:
route was super easy to plan. watched the weather leading up to the day of departure and a quick check the day of. Actually got some enroute weather which i had never done before. Regarding productivity, I had some great bonding time with my 13 yr old son, so yes very productive in my book. I am not one of those people who can work on a commercial flight. I am 6'2" and have a hard enough time fitting in my seat let alone trying to open a laptop!
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Lol!!! Okay.. But that's not the usual situation. I hope your preflight and planning normally takes more than 5 minutes. Also hope your weather briefing doesn't only consist of watching accu weather on channel three the day before.
 
Pilawt said:
I've spent more time fussing over Kayak and airline schedule websites than planning some long VFR X-Cs ...
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Than may I suggest you practice a bit more at Kayak? It takes less than a minute once you become proficient. Perhaps two more minutes to book.
 
Really, on an airline you've got the preflight safety briefing, the takeoff til 10k', the cabin service, the multiple trips through to pickup trash, then turbulence, screaming kids, potty trips...does anyone seriously get anything done productively during a commercial flight? OK, outside of 1st Class...
 
From the Bay Area.
For me a trip to LA house to hotel typically runs 5 hours by commercial, 3.5 by 182RG. (Jetsuite paired with Uber concord to burbank was actually 15 minutes faster when going to San Gabriel, ca against PC12 Kccr- kemt.

Phoenix is the Outer edge of 182rg ability, actually raced it once. House to vacation house, beat commercial traveler by about 1 hour.

Also add the ability to leave when you want vs being on a schedule, and 182rg beats commercial to anywhere within one fuel tank, price, and icey weather aside
 
I found in my Aerostar that I'd beat pretty much any airline door to door up to 1000nm. After that they win. On cost, rarely. In theory, on the turbine, that should go up to maybe 1500nm, but too early to tell.
 
iflyvfr said:
Really, on an airline you've got the preflight safety briefing, the takeoff til 10k', the cabin service, the multiple trips through to pickup trash, then turbulence, screaming kids, potty trips...does anyone seriously get anything done productively during a commercial flight? OK, outside of 1st Class...
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Yup.., I always sleep like a baby. That is major productivity for me.
 
Tom-D said:
realistically what sort of aircraft do you need to beat the airlines door to door.

let's say you live 1 hour from the major airport and 15 minutes from your aircraft. trip length is 1000 miles.
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Depends on if the major airport is a hub or not (i.e you have a direct flight or a connection?)

I live in the shadow of a large hub city. So the hub airline does a lot of nonstop out of here, and all the other guys do nonstop out of here to their respective hubs. I could beat the airlines timewise on anything under 500 miles door to door in an Arrow or similar. And on price with regards to same day/same week ticketing.

Beat the airlines 1000 miles in MY backyard? You are going to need something with the ability to make one hop and fly fast... that might involve a turbo, or pressurization, a turboprop or some combination of the above. I was daydreaming the other day about Mooney 231's and 252's..or Turbo 182RG... They would fit your bill for a single hop and 5-6 hours.. which would make it time competitive.

This assumes you fly from the small field near where you live to the small field near where you are going, and dont have to clear security or baggage on either side (which adds hours to your trip/day).

The best utility would come from living on a runway/airpark that is hours from a major field or otherise close to regional/connecting airport... You are going to pay a lot and spend a lot of time flying from there to anywhere because of connections and layovers. You could probably do just fine in something as (not so) fast as an Arrow/Tiger/182/177RG
 
Kritchlow said:
Than may I suggest you practice a bit more at Kayak? It takes less than a minute once you become proficient. Perhaps two more minutes to book.
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OK. Dryden, TX (KDRT) to Bridgeport, CA (O57). Go.
 
How long will it take to get from Forks, WA (S18) to Chinle, AZ (E91) on an airliner? That's about 1000nm direct. Port Angeles (KCLM) is about an hour away and Kenmore air is kinda major :)
 
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I love Forks. It is about 3.5 from town to the airport in SeaTac so almost anyplace would be faster via GA under 1000NM in anything faster than a C152.
 
asicer said:
How long will it take to get from Forks, WA to Chinle, AZ on an airliner? That's about 1000nm direct.
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No clue. But obviously you picked two places that don't have much, if any airline service.

That's just as cheap as an airline proponent saying I live next to DFW and going next to MCO. How long ??

Play fair.
 
Kritchlow said:
No clue. But obviously you picked two places that don't have much, if any airline service.

That's just as cheap as an airline proponent saying I live next to DFW and going next to MCO. How long ??

Play fair.
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I am. The original premise was an hour away from a major airport, which describes Port Angeles (KCLM) and Kenmore Air is kinda major :)
 
asicer said:
I am. The original premise was an hour away from a major airport, which describes Port Angeles (KCLM) and Kenmore Air is kinda major :)
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Yet somehow folks here evolved to 1000 mile trips.
Nice try. Once you factor in planning and fuel stop, plus loss of productivity, it's just not close.
 
Kritchlow said:
Lol!!! Okay.. But that's not the usual situation. I hope your preflight and planning normally takes more than 5 minutes. Also hope your weather briefing doesn't only consist of watching accu weather on channel three the day before.
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LOL!!! Actually yes that is my usual situation. And my weather briefings take as long as I need them to take to get the info I need for my trip. Not sure what accu weather is? No offense, but you seem like you just want to be argumentative!
 
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You're right.

But I'm still not sure many small airplanes can journey 1000 miles without a fuel stop.

This entire thread is silly IMO. It doesn't take into account any preflight / trip planning, nor securing and registering at destination, nor fueling at origin, nor the lost productivity to be had in the back of the airliner....

It's just people looking for an excuse.... Which is fine but don't disguise it as anti airline.

Don't forget the safety factor into your equastion..!?
 
MtnMarcus said:
LOL!!! Actually yes that is my usual situation. And my weather briefings take as long as I need them to take to get the info I need for my trip. Not sure what accu weather is? No offense, but you seem like you just want to be an argumentative prick!
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You call me an argumentative prick but then say no offense?
 
For me the decision is not so simple as which is faster. I consider issues such as time of year (is icing a concern?), my schedule flexibility (can I delay if need be? will I possibly be able to return or want to return early?), if the commercial is hub to hub or connecting and how convenient are the end hubs to my starting and ending points, etc.
In the end, flying commercial is possibly slightly less onerous than going to the dentist for me. Thus, I would likely fly myself over fly commercial unless time, cost, season, etc favor otherwise.

I can make 180kts and would require 1 fuel stop for a 1000 mile trip. That means about 5.5 hours flight time and about 30 minutes for a fuel stop so 6 hours for the trip. Even if the commercial flight was hub to hub, the flight would take 2 hours, the screwing around with showing up early for the security hassles, waiting on boarding, etc would add another 2 hours at least so maybe 4 hours. Is 2 hours difference worth the hassle? As far as the productivity argument, for me at least I am not going to be productive at all flying commercial.
 
I would personally also consider the intangibles and not just the actual monetary cost and time factor. These intangibles would include flying on your own schedule rather than the airline's, not having to deal with the TSA, not having to listen to a baby cry the entire flight, not having to deal with some brat kicking your seat back, not having to deal with the overly large smelly beast sitting next to you that thinks they have a right to part of your seat as well as theirs,...
 
It's all about the intangibles. It's very hard to justify using time, and especially price. I'm not sure why people even try.
 
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