Beating the airlines

Real world examples

JFK-FLL on the airlines
1 hr to airport, 1.5 hrs security and wait for flight, 3-3.5 hrs flight time, 30 min to taxi, deplane, get bags, 30 min to place down there. About 7 hrs door to door, no delays.
Versus
HPN-FXE in MU2
15 min to airport, 30 min preflight, 4 hours flight time assuming usual no wait for taxi and to, 20 min to unload and put plane away, car at planeside, 20 min to place. A stop for >30 kt headwinds adds an hour.
HPN-FXE in a Mooney Ovation
Same drive to airport and preflight, about 6 hrs flight time, same ground time there. A gas stop adds about 45 min. (less climb and descent vs MU2)

HPN-LAF (620 nm) (my daughter is a student there)
No airline service. Best flights are to ORD. Same time to airport and security. About 2.5 hr flight time, same time to get bags and rental car, 2.5 hr drive to LAF

In the Mooney (never did it in MU2), same time to airport, 4 hr flight time (shorter on way back). Airport is on the campus, walking distance to my daughter's dorm.

I've flown LAS-HPN in a Cirrus. I prefer the airlines for that trip.

Bottom line for me is that these discussions are highly mission specific.
 
Everskyward said:
:yeahthat:

But the airlines would always be cheaper because you can take MANY airline flights for the price and upkeep of a Meridian.

Still a winner, though! :biggrin:
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Cheaper is relative, as airplane owners, we only count fuel costs and then we use the cheapest price we've paid for fuel in the last 90 days!!
 
Everskyward said:
:yeahthat:

But the airlines would always be cheaper because you can take MANY airline flights for the price and upkeep of a Meridian.

Still a winner, though! :biggrin:
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For the record, I share a Meridian. And yes, while the Meridian arguably has the least operating cost of any certified pressurized turboprop, all-in, there is never a case when the Meridian is cheaper. I'm damn lucky to be able to fly it.
 
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You have that backward?


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OK, here is a specific example -

Traveling from Olympia, WA to Pullman, WA. We make this trip a number of times a year. The options are:

1. Drive. This is the longest option door to door, but has the advantage of being the lowest cost and is relatively immune to weather (relatively, Snoqualmie Pass over the Cascades on I-90 can be a mess at times). 5 1/2 to 6 hours door to door.

2. Fly GA. It's about 20 minutes to the airport from the house. 20 minutes to pre-flight and load up. 5 minutes or so to taxi to the runway. Just over 2 hours in the air in a 182 (or a bit more in a 172). Land, taxi to Interstate Aviation, tie down and get picked up (adds maybe 15 minutes. Total time - about 3 hours.

3. Fly 121. 1 hour from the house to SEA (if traffic is good). Arrive 2 hours in advance for the usual airport circus. 1 hour wheels up to wheels down (Horizon Q400). Walk off the plane and get picked up. About 4 hours total. Notice that the GA option has me in Pullman about the time the 121 flight pushes back from the gate.

If there are two of us GA is cost effective compared with 121. Especially if you factor in parking at SEA and the cost of the drive. If flying GA I either leave the car across the taxiway from the hangar, or put the car in the hangar after the plane is out. With 1 person 121 is less expensive. Driving is always the least expensive, and longest.

It's about 255 nm from KOLM to KPUW...
 
Flymu2 said:
Real world examples

JFK-FLL on the airlines
1 hr to airport, 1.5 hrs security and wait for flight, 3-3.5 hrs flight time, 30 min to taxi, deplane, get bags, 30 min to place down there. About 7 hrs door to door, no delays.
Versus
HPN-FXE in MU2
15 min to airport, 30 min preflight, 4 hours flight time assuming usual no wait for taxi and to, 20 min to unload and put plane away, car at planeside, 20 min to place. A stop for >30 kt headwinds adds an hour.
HPN-FXE in a Mooney Ovation
Same drive to airport and preflight, about 6 hrs flight time, same ground time there. A gas stop adds about 45 min. (less climb and descent vs MU2)

HPN-LAF (620 nm) (my daughter is a student there)
No airline service. Best flights are to ORD. Same time to airport and security. About 2.5 hr flight time, same time to get bags and rental car, 2.5 hr drive to LAF

In the Mooney (never did it in MU2), same time to airport, 4 hr flight time (shorter on way back). Airport is on the campus, walking distance to my daughter's dorm.

I've flown LAS-HPN in a Cirrus. I prefer the airlines for that trip.

Bottom line for me is that these discussions are highly mission specific.
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Am I reading this correctly? 3.5 hours in an airliner and 4.0 in an MU2 ? I know they're fast machines as I actually have some time in one, but they're not *that* fast, are they?

Also remember lower flying machines may be deviating more for weather.

ETA: Two additional points. First, I think 3.5 hours from LGA is too long. Second, coming out of HPN (based there flying a jet for 20 years) you can get the grand tour. It can easily be 15 minutes just to get back south to NYC, and then they sometime keep you slow above 10,000 feet.
 
Kritchlow said:
Second, coming out of HPN (based there flying a jet for 20 years) you can get the grand tour. It can easily be 15 minutes just to get back south to NYC, and then they sometime keep you slow above 10,000 feet.
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Flew for a regional that flew into and out of HPN, and I enjoyed that departure procedure. I think it was for rwy 16 departures? Great view of Manhattan, and then NY Center (approach?) turns you west to PA before you're on course to the south..
 
Shawn said:
Door to door hours are rarely better via any GA flight over commercial when you factor in everything involved. The time you are "buying" however by flying GA is the flexibility and availibility to be on your own schedule and not the airlines and get into exactly where you need to go.

For something to be reasonable to be viable against a 1000 mile trip you would need something in the 200kt range. I have a 182 and at 130 knots my cut off is about 500 miles when spam cans make more sense than GA...and not always then.
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It depends. I fly 1300NM each way from Columbus, OH to my parents' ranch in middle of nowhere, MT at least once or twice a year and my door to door time is definitely faster in my airplane (200KTAS cruise speed but 183KT block to block GS per my GPS since I've had the plane) than the airlines since there are no direct airline flights and landing at the airline airport in Montana requires a 2:15 drive to the ranch vs. 20 min drive from the local GA airport.

In my plane, living in a relatively central part of the country that is a major city but with limited direct airline routes, I can beat or at least match the airlines door to door just about for the entire eastern 2/3 of the country + Eastern Canada.
 
gsengle said:
I've beaten the airlines New England to Florida, around 1000 miles, even a nonstop, if you factor in at least an hour early to get through security.

Many newer Mooneys can do 180kts plus for 1000 miles nonstop.

It's the dispatch rate that kills ya... Icing, widespread low imc, tstorms. Light aircraft just don't have a high enough dispatch rate if you have to make the trip...


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I think in practice that is not true above a certain level of equipment and maintenance in GA. I fly 300+ hours a year in my GA airplane, all of those hours being scheduled trips, i.e. no $100 hamburgers or random pattern work and my cancelation rate is under 1%, with maybe another 1% representing delays over 1 hour due to weather. Never a mechanical cancel/delay in 9 years and 2500 hours of ownership. And let me assure you, I am a conservative weather pilot, but I do have FIKI, various weather tools and am not afraid of giving weather a wide berth (e.g., take detours to avoid it) and always have at least one out/backup plan.

Comparatively, while I never fly the airlines, my fiancee does frequently and it seems to me that (I realize this is anecdotal) at least 10% of her flights get canceled and maybe another 30-40% experience a delay in the 1-3 hour range. We are always a bit surprised when her airline flight departs and arrives on time.
 
What part of the country do you live in?


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Of course there is not only the issue of dispatch reliability, but also that of one's personal responsibility for it. It might be more palatable for an angry boss/client/customer/probation officer to hear you say, "United Airlines canceled my flight," than to hear you say, "The drop on the right mag on runup was a little more than I like to see and it didn't sound quite right ... "

:oops:
 
I can beat the airlines on a 225nm flight. I live 5 minutes from DCA, which has excellent connections along the east coast, and 20 minutes from my 182. But even if American began offering non-stop service to Hatteras Island NC, they won't be able to beat loading my wife, our stuff, strollers, baby, dog, replacement beach chairs, some groceries, etc. Three hours door to door, considering my walk from Billy Mitchell is less than 10 minutes to our house.

Obviously this is a unique situation but it works great for us.
 
Pilawt said:
Of course there is not only the issue of dispatch reliability, but also that of one's personal responsibility for it. It might be more palatable for an angry boss/client/customer/probation officer to hear you say, "United Airlines canceled my flight," than to hear you say, "The drop on the right mag on runup was a little more than I like to see and it didn't sound quite right ... "

:oops:
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I read from that, that you fly an aircraft that you can't depend upon.
 
Tom-D said:
I read from that, that you fly an aircraft that you can't depend upon.
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Dispatch rate includes weather...


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Doesn't matter. If you have to go tues and tues is widespread low IFR on route, forecast accurately or not in advance, I'm not going in a light piston single.


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deonb said:
You can beat them by driving over that distance (roads permitting).
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Not this route, assuming the airline could fly into a 3000 foot uncontrolled field. It takes about 330 miles and about 6 hours to drive.
 
gsengle said:
Doesn't matter. If you have to go tues and tues is widespread low IFR on route, forecast accurately or not in advance, I'm not going in a light piston single.


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Are you instrument rated? If so, why not?
 
I keep avoiding this thread but I'll say it...

I'm pretty sure flying myself anywhere and not dealing with the stupidity at a major airport, is beating the airlines every single time.

Even when I've broken down in Nebraska on a Sunday.

Heck I'm pretty sure after my last commercial flight that sleeping on an FBO couch for a week would still be "beating the airlines".

;)
 
RudyP said:
Are you instrument rated? If so, why not?
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Because good pilots manage risk. If you lose an engine over a large area of low imc, you can die, unless you have a chute to pull.

Familiar with this accident? Listen to the atc tapes. Family died. I don't fly over widespread low imc, and yes I'm rated and well equipped.

http://forums.bvartcc.com/index.php?topic=5502.0


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And yet we always forget to factor in the useful time in the back of the plane. For me, that means sleep...
 
Kritchlow said:
And yet we always forget to factor in the useful time in the back of the plane. For me, that means sleep...
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I find that hard to do when the person behind me is using my seatback as a knee rest, the person next to me is clipping their toenails and the person in front of me is a crying baby.
 
asicer said:
I find that hard to do when the person behind me is using my seatback as a knee rest, the person next to me is clipping their toenails and the person in front of me is a crying baby.
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Okay... Not me. I can sleep through most anything. Perhaps you can do some work in the computer like I see many, many people doing?
 
In my Cherokee, I can't beat much but it sure is fun trying. Is the question here about time or money or both? And before anyone jumps on this I will stipulate that time IS money.
 
Timbeck2 said:
In my Cherokee, I can't beat much but it sure is fun trying. Is the question here about time or money or both? And before anyone jumps on this I will stipulate that time IS money.
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Indeed... The FUN factor does, and should, play a huge role here.
 
SkyDog58 said:
If so, why not?

??

Yeah, that isn't confusing. :confused:
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Haha, good point, that is confusing.

I meant, if he is instrument rated, why not fly over widespread IMC areas (a reference to his previous post). Which he later provided a very reasonable answer for, so I guess he got what I was asking. But my words were not clear, you are correct!
 
gsengle said:
Because good pilots manage risk. If you lose an engine over a large area of low imc, you can die, unless you have a chute to pull.

Familiar with this accident? Listen to the atc tapes. Family died. I don't fly over widespread low imc, and yes I'm rated and well equipped.

http://forums.bvartcc.com/index.php?topic=5502.0


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Fair enough. I do have a parachute on my plane, but I routinely see plenty of non parachute equipped singles fly over large areas of IMC as well so I think it is clearly one of those personal decisions about what risks one is willing to accept.
 
I'll fly just about anywhere east of the Mississippi and beat or tie with the airlines maybe even a little west of it.
 
Yep. I'm not sure I'd do it even with a chute. My own personal limits is I want to generally see 1000 agl ceilings minimum above the majority of my route of flight.

I'm not comfortable ever just rolling the dice, I always want an out.

In my last 800 hours of flying I had to put down an Arrow that couldn't hold altitude as the engine fell apart - luckily close to a runway (rental). After that I had another Arrow lose power in one cylinder (spalled cam lifter) which forced a precautionary landing while the engine shook pretty hard...

And then my present Mooney forced another precautionary landing in IMC with a clogged injector causing some shaking...

So I always assume a single might have to land fast!


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Gsengle - Not trying to challenge you at all because I respect anyone's different (as long as they are thoughtful) points of view on risk/reward tradeoff, but how you handle an IMC approach with low ceilings? If you are on ILS or LPV glideslope to a runway in the soup and the engine dies on the approach, you won't be able to glide to the runway. In fact, it seems that is exactly what happened to the pilot in the accident you linked to above. Do you avoid precision instrument approaches in low ceiling situations as a matter of course?

My rationale for doing it is that it is a short exposure window, at low power setting, at the end of a much longer continuous period of uneventful higher power operation but if you 100% always want an out, it seems you wouldn't have it in this case.
 
Prescott AZ to Sioux Falls SD
Drive to Phoenix and fly non stop on alliegient 10.5 hours my house to FBO.
Sioux Falls to prescott Cherokee 160
12.5 hours FBO to my house in Prescott
The second leg was more fun and the best part was No TSA
Cost was comparable


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RudyP said:
Haha, good point, that is confusing.

I meant, if he is instrument rated, why not fly over widespread IMC areas (a reference to his previous post). Which he later provided a very reasonable answer for, so I guess he got what I was asking. But my words were not clear, you are correct!
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Dang, I read it as a standalone question and not in the context that it was written. Once I read it again after reading the post you replied to, it made perfect sense.
 
The other thing that stands out is, while it might or might not be faster, with our own planes, we gain flexibility.

When there is weather that would affect 121 carriers, it affects the GA guys too, of course. The difference is, recovery for the 121 pax takes days and days, sometimes weeks, because of full planes, and while you wait, you pay, sit around airports, wonder.

With our own planes, maybe we spend another night or two, but we know that, when weather allows, we can go. It's just more reassuring, and ...

...it's cooler.
 
SCCutler said:
The other thing that stands out is, while it might or might not be faster, with our own planes, we gain flexibility.

When there is weather that would affect 121 carriers, it affects the GA guys too, of course. The difference is, recovery for the 121 pax takes days and days, sometimes weeks, because of full planes, and while you wait, you pay, sit around airports, wonder.

With our own planes, maybe we spend another night or two, but we know that, when weather allows, we can go. It's just more reassuring, and ...

...it's cooler.
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And... It could be the complete opposite. Weather that grounds GA airplanes for extended periods nay not ground an airliner at all.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay... Not me. I can sleep through most anything. Perhaps you can do some work in the computer like I see many, many people doing?
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My employer is a bit security-sensitive and would raise an eyebrow if I did work with prying eyes next to me for long stretches.
 
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