Battery Life

F

flygirl34q

Ejection Handle Pulled
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
833
Display Name
Display name:
-
Well, I went to fly today (nowhere special, just out to a decent lunch buffet and to get the airplane moving for the week) and all I could get out of my Gill G-35 was a single prop turn and then... nothing. :confused: A quick logbook check at home revealed that this battery was new on 1/25/2008, so almost 5 years old. Time flies when you're having fun, I guess, I thought it was way newer than that. Anyway, would you consider this battery at the end of it's useful life?? I'm sure the mechanic will want to replace it when I talk to him on Monday. How long a life is everyone getting out of their airplane's battery??
 
Personal opinion: Gills are crap.

My Cherokee 180 has an eight year old Concorde RG35-AXC that still acts as new. I know people with 10 year old Concordes.
And the RG35 doesn't vent corrosive gases that cause corrosion. Ask about the battery box corrosion horror stories from Gill batteries.
 
For Gill five years is probably all you'll get. Go RG on your new one.
 
I've heard that about Gills... and am considering going with the other type (Concorde) this time. I just got a new battery box at my last annual. Hopefully, all I need is a new battery. :rolleyes2:
 
I had a Gill fail after 5 years too.

It failed very suddenly and totally. I got stranded at an aircraft dealer in France and got fleeced $2000 for a new starter motor :)

I then did another 5 years on a Concorde which never failed to start the engine perfectly but was reported as having failed the load test. I was suprised by this but I spoke to Concorde and they say 5 years is probably about right. But that battery never failed me. I still have it at home, and it gets used for various other things and is as good as new.
 
LDJones said:
For Gill five years is probably all you'll get. Go RG on your new one.
Click to expand...

the gill that came in my mooney only last 2.5 years. I put a concorde in it and hooked it up to a trickle charger. Hope to get several years out of it.
 
rbridges said:
the gill that came in my mooney only last 2.5 years. I put a concorde in it and hooked it up to a trickle charger. Hope to get several years out of it.
Click to expand...

Check the electrolyte frequently if it's on a trickle charger all the time. Outgassing depletes it.

Batteries that have been run flat two or three times will have short lives. Trying to start a cold or flooded engine, or one with the mags shot, until the battery won't crank anymore, will sulfate it and it never completely recovers. There are other things that run it down some, too: the clock and any volatile memories in the radios that have a keep-alive feed to them. A few weeks of that depletes the charge some.

We never had any trouble with Gills, but I think the Concordes are better. Any vented battery will overflow acid if it is topped up to the split rings while NOT on charge. While charging, the electrolyte expands (the bubbles in it do that) and it will overflow if you've topped those cells right up. Best time to top them is while still on the charger, on the bench. In the airplane, I never filled them beyond halfway between the tops of the plates and the bottom of the split ring. Gill and Concorde will tell you the same thing in the pamphlets that come with the batteries.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
Check the electrolyte frequently if it's on a trickle charger all the time. Outgassing depletes it.

Batteries that have been run flat two or three times will have short lives. Trying to start a cold or flooded engine, or one with the mags shot, until the battery won't crank anymore, will sulfate it and it never completely recovers. There are other things that run it down some, too: the clock and any volatile memories in the radios that have a keep-alive feed to them. A few weeks of that depletes the charge some.

We never had any trouble with Gills, but I think the Concordes are better. Any vented battery will overflow acid if it is topped up to the split rings while NOT on charge. While charging, the electrolyte expands (the bubbles in it do that) and it will overflow if you've topped those cells right up. Best time to top them is while still on the charger, on the bench. In the airplane, I never filled them beyond halfway between the tops of the plates and the bottom of the split ring. Gill and Concorde will tell you the same thing in the pamphlets that come with the batteries.

Dan
Click to expand...

thanks, you're right. I forgot to mention that it's a float charger, so it keeps it from overcharging.
 
flygirl34q said:
Well, I went to fly today (nowhere special, just out to a decent lunch buffet and to get the airplane moving for the week) and all I could get out of my Gill G-35 was a single prop turn and then... nothing. :confused: A quick logbook check at home revealed that this battery was new on 1/25/2008, so almost 5 years old. Time flies when you're having fun, I guess, I thought it was way newer than that. Anyway, would you consider this battery at the end of it's useful life?? I'm sure the mechanic will want to replace it when I talk to him on Monday. How long a life is everyone getting out of their airplane's battery??
Click to expand...

5 years is about it! Add me to the list of satisfied Concorde users. RG35AXC in the arrow.
 
I suspect that your 5 year battery is tired BUT that is not an absolute.
It is a system and the battery is just one of many parts that have to be clean and connected to work. If the connections have resistance the battery won't crank with authority and it also will not take a full charge as the resistance in the connections confuses the alternator into thinking the battery is fully charged when it is not.

I suspect that absolutely no one has opened the cable clamps, polished the corrosion off, put a dab of silicone grease on them and put it back together in the past 5 years. Same thing at the other ends of the cables, i.e. the relay connections and the starter connections. Have someone go through the entire system and then put a slow charge overnight on the battery and it might surprise you - or not.

Just finished doing that preventative maintenance on the battery banks in our boat in preparation for going to Florida in a few days. This is done twice a year. Takes me an entire day to do it - 4 battery banks and dozens of cable connections in really awkward spot to get into..

Today I have done about half the tractors and combines in our herd of mechanical critters. This is an annual hit list I am working my way down. Tomorrow I will finish that job.

And I use the RG35A in my plane.
 
I put a Concorde battery (an XC) in my Cherokee a few years back. Definitely cranks the engine better than the G-35. The thing I absolutely hated about the Concorde was the terminal design that you have to use a bolt to connect the cable. Maybe it's my battery box and the cables, but it was such a PITA to connect the cables to the battery.

After a few years of that nonsense, I replaced the battery with a G-35.
Obviously a lot of people love the Concorde batteries. Me, I wouldn't buy another battery with that kind of terminal. Heck, I wouldn't take one for free.
 
Dr. O said:
I suspect that absolutely no one has opened the cable clamps, polished the corrosion off, put a dab of silicone grease on them and put it back together in the past 5 years. Same thing at the other ends of the cables, i.e. the relay connections and the starter connections. Have someone go through the entire system and then put a slow charge overnight on the battery and it might surprise you - or not.
Click to expand...

And that reminds me: Those relays (master and starter contactors, or solenoids as some know them) have copper discs in them that oxidize and start to represent resistance in the circuit. They will oxidize just because they're old, not because they've got lots of hours on them, but lots of starts also burn them, too. If a new battery doesn't change things much, a voltage drop check across each of them while someone cranks the engine will prove they're shot. Easiest way to do that is to put the voltmeter across those big terminals; with no flow you should see battery voltage. While cranking, the meter should drop to zero.

Dan
 
A sealed Concorde with BatteryMinder will last darn near forever!
 
I use an interstate motorcycle battery and a battery tender. Works quite well.
 
flygirl34q said:
Hmm... well, it seems like I have a few choices. My serial number fits in the range for all of those. Seems like the XC is the most popular choice. Blah... going to talk to the mechanic as soon as he gets in today. Break out the checkbook. :rolleyes2: :( :rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

The Concord is the way to go. One item that did affect me (in a '67 Cherokee 140) was that the size of the Concord is a bit different than the Gill. We needed to use a thin (maybe 1/4" piece of plexiglas) in the bottom of the battery box to raise the battery enough to make sure the battery cables were at the same level as before (my cables are on the side of the box with rubber gromments between the cable and the box). The old battery box top didn't fit correctly, but Concord had a new one (free for the asking!) made of stainless steel. Your configuration may be different and not need this.

Also, the Concord battery terminals are very sensitive to torque! Make sure that when tightening the bolts, use the specified torque!

Gary
 
Last edited:
When I went up to Canada in January and thought I might have a need for extra cranking power, I took a pair of F-250 diesel batteries with me and jumper cables.
 
Lynn,

Had the same issue Saturday. Replaced my gill batteries last year, they were 4-5 yeas old. My sundowner was dead and I had to pull both new Gill's and recharge. I added a solar battery tender/minder to keep them at peak.

Hope you get it squared away.
 
Regarding chargers on sealed AGM batteries. You'll do best with a "smart charger" rather than a trickle-only charger (e.g. Battery Tender). If the battery is always fully charged and the trickle charger is only used to keep it there, no problem. But if the battery is less than fully charged (either from say panel usage or running an always-on clock in some avionic component), trickle charging it back to fully charged will, over time, diminish your batteries total capacity (think CCA). Better to use a smart charger like one of the Schumachers (Walmart <$50). It will charge a partially discharged battery to full charge quickly, then go into trickle charger mode for as long as desired.
 
If you don't like the price on the battery that your A&P quotes you, slug him in the jaw!

Then he can charge you for assault AND battery!!
 
Gary said:
The Concord is the way to go. One item that did affect me (in a '67 Cherokee 140) was that the size of the Concord is a bit different than the Gill. We needed to use a thin (maybe 1/4" piece of plexiglas) in the bottom of the battery box to raise the battery enough to make sure the battery cables were at the same level as before (my cables are on the side of the box with rubber gromments between the cable and the box). The old battery box top didn't fit correctly, but Concord had a new one (free for the asking!) made of stainless steel. Your configuration may be different and not need this.

Also, the Concord battery terminals are very sensitive to torque! Make sure that when tightening the bolts, use the specified torque!

Gary
Click to expand...


Concorde XC on order. But my mechanic is throwing in a charger, so now I'll have one. LOL. I even get a tutorial on how to use it. It turns out that Concordes are more $$$ than the Gill I have now though. :( I do hope it turns out to be worth the extra cost. And my mechanic's answer to that battery height dilemma is an add-on to the battery terminals to raise them up to the right height. I have the stainless steel battery box from Bogert Aviation that my mechanic talked me into. Apparently, there is a kit to make the terminals taller on the Concorde battery so they will fit. :rolleyes2: In a perfect aviation world, everything would just fit together perfectly! There were a few other issues too, but he thinks he can have it ready for me to make the Muncie lunch this Sunday. Hoping for decent weather! :fcross:



Sac Arrow said:
If you don't like the price on the battery that your A&P quotes you, slug him in the jaw!

Then he can charge you for assault AND battery!!
Click to expand...


And Sac... I'd think I'd need some hired muscle to do that FOR me somehow... :eek:
 
Bill Watson said:
Regarding chargers on sealed AGM batteries. You'll do best with a "smart charger" rather than a trickle-only charger (e.g. Battery Tender). If the battery is always fully charged and the trickle charger is only used to keep it there, no problem. But if the battery is less than fully charged (either from say panel usage or running an always-on clock in some avionic component), trickle charging it back to fully charged will, over time, diminish your batteries total capacity (think CCA). Better to use a smart charger like one of the Schumachers (Walmart <$50). It will charge a partially discharged battery to full charge quickly, then go into trickle charger mode for as long as desired.
Click to expand...

BatteryTender (name brand) will do this. I bought one after my Schumacher went Tango Uniform and their customer service didn't bother responding to my requests for information.
 
The batter tender question comes up a lot and I know both Concord and Gill say to not use the Battery Tender style battery maintainer. They would rather sell one of their own at more than $180. I have read that the difference is in the temperature sensor that calculates how much charge is applicable based on how far from fully charged and the temperature.

While I can see this being an important requirement in the summer it seems that in the winter when it is cold it couldn't be that big of a problem.

Someone with more knowledge please chime in.
 
flygirl34q said:
Concorde XC on order. But my mechanic is throwing in a charger, so now I'll have one. LOL. I even get a tutorial on how to use it. It turns out that Concordes are more $$$ than the Gill I have now though. :( I do hope it turns out to be worth the extra cost. And my mechanic's answer to that battery height dilemma is an add-on to the battery terminals to raise them up to the right height. I have the stainless steel battery box from Bogert Aviation that my mechanic talked me into. Apparently, there is a kit to make the terminals taller on the Concorde battery so they will fit. :rolleyes2: In a perfect aviation world, everything would just fit together perfectly! There were a few other issues too, but he thinks he can have it ready for me to make the Muncie lunch this Sunday.
Click to expand...

You will find that batteries are engineered and manufactured to last a specific amount of time. no matter how well you treat them, no matter how bad you treat them they will not pass the required ICA for continued airworthiness.

Yes it may start the aircraft, but no, it will not pass the test.

Read the little pamphlet that comes with the battery, because it is the ICAs for the maintenance of the battery.

and to complicate things, it is the only excepted reference for return to service entries, and these tests are a requirement of the Annual.

Read'em, they are important.
 
tmyers said:
The batter tender question comes up a lot and I know both Concord and Gill say to not use the Battery Tender style battery maintainer. They would rather sell one of their own at more than $180. I have read that the difference is in the temperature sensor that calculates how much charge is applicable based on how far from fully charged and the temperature.

While I can see this being an important requirement in the summer it seems that in the winter when it is cold it couldn't be that big of a problem.

Someone with more knowledge please chime in.
Click to expand...

they have a point, they wrote the rules that say how the battery is to be maintained, those rules are the ICAs for the battery and tell us what the methods are to be used during charging the battery.

You don't comply, it could cost you your A&P certificate.
 
Sac Arrow said:
If you don't like the price on the battery that your A&P quotes you, slug him in the jaw!

Then he can charge you for assault AND battery!!
Click to expand...

(IANAL) and nit picking alert!

To get charged for assault, you have to threaten him.
 
Sac Arrow said:
If you don't like the price on the battery that your A&P quotes you,
Click to expand...

If you don't like what the A&P charges for this service, do it your self FAR part 43-A-(c) #24

most pilot stores or AS&S has them, and will ship direct your address.
 
Bob Noel said:
(IANAL) and nit picking alert!

To get charged for assault, you have to threaten him.
Click to expand...

Aaaaahhhhhh okay I get it. So basically, an "assault rifle" is so because it looks threatening!
 
I live in experimental land now and I have the repairman certificate for my RV10. So I'm qualified to offer zero advice with regard to any certified anything.

I use this charger and have had excellent results including the "recovery" of batteries that spent a year or two under charged after many charge/discharge cycles.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/60509998/DSC04046.JPG
It was about $40.

Empirical testing by an industry guru indicated that this charger (Schumacher 1562) will accomplish everything the above charger is spec'd to do, but slower and at half the cost. Slower is usually not an issue in aviation land.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Schumacher-SpeedCharge-Battery-Maintainer-and-Charger/13005742

Empirical comparison testing of the Battery Tender (tm) and the Schumacher 1562 by same industry guru indicated that both will do the job, at least within the variable performance range of the batteries. That is, whatever difference in charging performance there may be between the BT and the 1562, it was masked by the variable performance of the battery from cycle to cycle. (Those chemical mash-ups are apparently more analog than digital in character)

I understand that the Schumacher's charging profile closely matches the profile called for by AGM battery manufacturers. The Battery Tender charging profile doesn't quite conform. However, they will both charge and maintain the batteries in question. (I don't know what testing is specified by the manufacturer for keeping the Concorde in service. I've been using a Carbon Pile tester to do the periodic in-service testing on my 2 batts).

The conclusion that I and others have come to for our experimentals is that if you have a BT, keep it and use it. It will do the job. If you are buying a new charger, the 1562 is a good price performer. The charger I use is slight over kill. It did allow me to recover some value from a couple of batteries that had been abused and badly maintained with a BT. The 1562 would probably have recovered them too. But avoiding the abuse would have been the preferable route.

Bill "dual batt, dual alternator, dual buss, dual mag RV10" Watson
 
Sac Arrow said:
Aaaaahhhhhh okay I get it. So basically, an "assault rifle" is so because it looks threatening!
Click to expand...

Excellent point. Scary rifles are assault weapons. I like it.
 
I know this is slightly off topic, but can any of these be used as a pseudo ground power? Trying to get more time with my new avionics on the ground and wonder if there is anything reasonably price to work as a ground power.
 
Marauder said:
I know this is slightly off topic, but can any of these be used as a pseudo ground power? Trying to get more time with my new avionics on the ground and wonder if there is anything reasonably price to work as a ground power.
Click to expand...
no way no how. You need a plain old power supply for that, or a charger that is set up for cranking. The little maintainers are not to pull a load.
 
JHW said:
no way no how. You need a plain old power supply for that, or a charger that is set up for cranking. The little maintainers are not to pull a load.
Click to expand...

What then is available? Are there power supplies available at a reasonable cost? When I googled them, I see these big units but nothing for smaller planes. Is there such a beast? I would love to spend more time playing with my new avionics in a cheaper environment.
 
Marauder said:
What then is available? Are there power supplies available at a reasonable cost? When I googled them, I see these big units but nothing for smaller planes. Is there such a beast? I would love to spend more time playing with my new avionics in a cheaper environment.
Click to expand...
there are plenty of cheapo wal mart chargers that can give you 10 amps, if you fry it, little loss.
 
Marauder said:
I know this is slightly off topic, but can any of these be used as a pseudo ground power? Trying to get more time with my new avionics on the ground and wonder if there is anything reasonably price to work as a ground power.
Click to expand...

How much power do your avionics pull? 5-10 amps? A simple charger will keep up OK.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
How much power do your avionics pull? 5-10 amps? A simple charger will keep up OK.
Click to expand...

That is what I thought as well, but when I was trying things out at the avionics shop, they had a "ground supply" attached to the battery for me to play with them. It was an older unit and may not have been working correctly, but when I looked at the Aspen's voltage screen, it showed 11.5 volts (surprisingly the Aspen did not go into battery backup mode), the ammeter was showing a negative and the only things I had running were the two Aspens (ACU was probably on as well) and the Garmin GTN.

Does this make sense? And do I need a power supply or a charger? Or are they one in the same?
 
Marauder said:
That is what I thought as well, but when I was trying things out at the avionics shop, they had a "ground supply" attached to the battery for me to play with them. It was an older unit and may not have been working correctly, but when I looked at the Aspen's voltage screen, it showed 11.5 volts (surprisingly the Aspen did not go into battery backup mode), the ammeter was showing a negative and the only things I had running were the two Aspens (ACU was probably on as well) and the Garmin GTN.

Does this make sense? And do I need a power supply or a charger? Or are they one in the same?
Click to expand...
depending on where your ground power plug is wired in you may or may not see anything on the ammeter, but yes your point is valid, if the power supply is keeping up you should be seeing something between 12.5-14V on a 12V system
 
Marauder said:
That is what I thought as well, but when I was trying things out at the avionics shop, they had a "ground supply" attached to the battery for me to play with them. It was an older unit and may not have been working correctly, but when I looked at the Aspen's voltage screen, it showed 11.5 volts (surprisingly the Aspen did not go into battery backup mode), the ammeter was showing a negative and the only things I had running were the two Aspens (ACU was probably on as well) and the Garmin GTN.

Does this make sense? And do I need a power supply or a charger? Or are they one in the same?
Click to expand...

If they attached the "ground supply" directly to the battery your ammeter would show a "discharge" but the voltage should have been well above 12v (e.g. around 13.8) assuming the Aspen's voltage readout was accurate.

The amperage displayed on the Aspen when running the avionics from the battery (with or without a supply or charger attached to the battery) should give you an idea of the current required of an external supply for "ground operation" of your avionics although you should add a couple amps for the master contactor.

If you have a "basic" stack (a GPS, navcom, transponder, and audio panel) plus the Aspen I'd expect your nominal current to be in the 8-12 amp range. The least expensive option (other than borrowing a supply) would be something like this:
tinyurl.com/12vSupplyOnEbay

You'd need to add a power cord and appropriately sized wires to the battery (preferably with and inline 25A fuse in the positive lead). Most supplies like that one allow you to raise the output voltage to a bit over 13 which would be adequate. You might even find a 14v or 15v supply, either of which could be adjusted down to 13.8v which is ideal.

You can use a simple (manual) battery charger but there are issues with this because they are not regulated or even filtered. They can damage a fully charged battery if left on too long when the load is light and are likely to let the battery discharge when the load is more than half the charger's rating. An automatic charger may be worse depending on it's complexity. Many modern automatic chargers involve a "computer" scheduled charge cycle and a load connected to the battery being "charged" can confuse the "computer".

If you do go the charger route, make sure the battery is always in the circuit (i.e. don't connect the charger to an external power connection on the airplane without the master turned on) and pay attention to the battery voltage during the operation. If the voltage is less than 12.6 the battery is discharging and you will need to operate the charger without the avionics for some time to replenish the battery's charge.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top