Basic Med above 18,000MSL?

[Vincent Vuoto]

Hello, I’m new to the forums here. Looking forward to learning and interacting with everyone. I currently fly under Basic Med.
I know it restricts operations above 18,000MSL.
My dream is to be able to fly into the flight levels one day.
In your opinions, is there a possibility that Basic Med could or would be expanded to allow ops above 18K?
Also, is there any talk of further aeromedical reform in the pipeline?

 

[Brad Z]

Realistically, I don’t see that ever happening. High altitude operations pose a significant aeromedical concerns. Recall that the original justification for BasicMed was that most GA pilots fly at altitudes you can drive your car up to in many parts of the U.S.

As far as flying above 18k, do what you need to do to get a third class medical and make your dreams come true.

 

[dans2992]

Realistically, I don’t see that ever happening. High altitude operations pose a significant aeromedical concerns. Recall that the original justification for BasicMed was that most GA pilots fly at altitudes you can drive your car up to in many parts of the U.S.

As far as flying above 18k, do what you need to do to get a third class medical and make your dreams come true.

Are there really a lot of concerns? Above FL180, you’re likely going to be flying something pressurized. Sure you have to deal with a rapid decompression and emergency descent, but that takes minutes.

 

[Vincent Vuoto]

It’s funny because I had a much more thorough physical exam from my GP than I did for my 3rd class a while ago.

 

[Vincent Vuoto]

Are there really a lot of concerns? Above FL180, you’re likely going to be flying something pressurized. Sure you have to deal with a rapid decompression and emergency descent, but that takes minutes.

Yeah I’m flying a 8-9,000MSL on long trips with no O2. Any pressurized single or twin piston is pressurized to 8K, right? So, what’s the difference? I guess time of useful consciousness up in the flight levels if there’s a decompression.

 

[benyflyguy]

It’s funny because I had a much more thorough physical exam from my GP than I did for my 3rd class a while ago.

Begs the question why can’t get a class 3 then?

 

[Vincent Vuoto]

Begs the question why can’t get a class 3 then?

A medical issue. Not serious but I opted to fly Basic Med for a while until I’m fairly certain I will get a 3rd class with no problems.
If I get declined for a 3rd class, I wouldn’t be eligible to fly under Basic Med. I don’t even need the 3rd class for the kind of flying I do. The whole purpose of me getting a 3rd class in the future would be to fly up into the flight levels and possibly in an airplane with +6,000lbs MTOW.

 

[Brad Z]

Are there really a lot of concerns? Above FL180, you’re likely going to be flying something pressurized. Sure you have to deal with a rapid decompression and emergency descent, but that takes minutes.

Are you arguing that there is no added risk flying above 18,000 feet?

A medical issue. Not serious but I opted to fly Basic Med for a while until I’m fairly certain I will get a 3rd class with no problems.
If I get declined for a 3rd class, I wouldn’t be eligible to fly under Basic Med. I don’t even need the 3rd class for the kind of flying I do. The whole purpose of me getting a 3rd class in the future would be to fly up into the flight levels and possibly in an airplane with +6,000lbs MTOW.

The simple answer is not to submit for a 3rd class exam unless you are certain you can pass a third class exam.

 

[Vincent Vuoto]

Are you arguing that there is no added risk flying above 18,000 feet?

The simple answer is not to submit for a 3rd class exam unless you are certain you can pass a third class exam.

Yes, definitely. Thanks for your comments.

 

[dans2992]

Are you arguing that there is no added risk flying above 18,000 feet?

The simple answer is not to submit for a 3rd class exam unless you are certain you can pass a third class exam.

No, there are obviously some additional risks. However, I’m not sure that anything found on a medical exam will have any effect on those risks.

 

[TCABM]

No, there are obviously some additional risks. However, I’m not sure that anything found on a medical exam will have any effect on those risks.

Q: What do you think the operating limits for BasicMed should be?

 

[Pinecone]

I think the they should replace the 3rd class with Basic Med. There is nothing in the 3rd class medical exam that will catch/indicate issues with flying in the Flight Levels. Not even in the 2st class.

Over 6,000 pounds? So a 6,000 pound airplane is OK, but 6,001 will fall out of the sky if you don't have an AME examine you? The same for the speed restriction. And even the number of seats.

 

[Brad Z]

No, there are obviously some additional risks. However, I’m not sure that anything found on a medical exam will have any effect on those risks.

There are no standards for BasicMed. There is nothing to prevent a respiratory compromised pilot from having someone sign off his CMEC. There's a fair amount of trust given to the pilot (and periodically to an unaccountable physician) to make an appropriate decision regarding his or her fitness for flight. Oversight is validation of that trust. Oversight increases as risk increases. That is why 121 airlines are subject to more oversight than part 91 powered parachute pilots.

In terms of medical oversight, when you get up to the flight levels, it is reasonable to expect higher medical standards.

 

[DFH65]

Begs the question why can’t get a class 3 then?

Not everyone on Basic Med goes that route because they have a medical issue that prevents them from getting a class 3. Many could get a class three but don't want to put up with the cost and time related to proving to the FAA they are worthy.

The FAA medical system is a mess.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

In your opinions, is there a possibility that Basic Med could or would be expanded to allow ops above 18K?

No.

FAA BasicMed FAQ revised, Revised May 9, 2017

Q1: How did the FAA come up with these BasicMed requirements?

A: The FAA did not develop these requirements. The requirements are from the U.S. Congress, which enacted the FAA Extension, Safety, and Security Act of 2016 (PL 114- 190) (FESSA) on July 15, 2016. Section 2307 of FESSA, Medical Certification of Certain Small Aircraft Pilots, directed the FAA to “issue or revise regulations to ensure that an individual may operate as pilot in command of a covered aircraft” if the pilot and aircraft meet certain prescribed conditions as outlined in FESSA. The FAA regulations implement the provisions in § 2307 of FESSA.

So, in my opinion, No. I do not think Congress will ever expand this. And No, I do not think the FAA will ever expand this absent another legislative directive from Congress.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

It’s funny because I had a much more thorough physical exam from my GP than I did for my 3rd class a while ago.

Yep; an ordinary routine exam, or a BasicMed exam, are far more comprehensive than at least the 2/3 class FAA medicals.

 

[PaulS]

I really have no desire to fly above 18k unless it's in a pressurized aircraft. Sucking oxygen isn't fun, I really don't like it at 13,000 feet.

 

[Witmo]

I think the they should replace the 3rd class with Basic Med. There is nothing in the 3rd class medical exam that will catch/indicate issues with flying in the Flight Levels. Not even in the 2st class.

Over 6,000 pounds? So a 6,000 pound airplane is OK, but 6,001 will fall out of the sky if you don't have an AME examine you? The same for the speed restriction. And even the number of seats.

A limit is a limit. Everyone can argue numbers. Overall, basic med has been great. I doubt the third class will ever go away because a private pilot with a third class could theoretically fly just about anything given enough money and a type rating if required. I really don't want some guy who can't qualify for a third class flying heavy iron up in the flight levels because he has more money than sense.

 

[Half Fast]

There are no standards for BasicMed. There is nothing to prevent a respiratory compromised pilot from having someone sign off his CMEC.

AFAIK, there is no respiratory standard for 3rd class (or 1st and 2nd, for that matter.). The exam doesn't even check resting and exercising O2 levels, let alone have a standard. So how is 3rd any better tha Basic in this regard?

In terms of medical oversight, when you get up to the flight levels, it is reasonable to expect higher medical standards.

Agreed, but what specific test or standard applies to altitude? Your theory is correct, but the current implementation does not address it.

 

[Half Fast]

In your opinions, is there a possibility that Basic Med could or would be expanded to allow ops above 18K?

No.

There’s no real demand for it, even if a medical argument can be made.

 

[jbarrass]

The right answer is to eliminate the 3rd class entirely.

Maybe require the 2nd class for aircraft that need a type rating.

 

[Mxfarm]

The right answer is to eliminate the 3rd class entirely.

Maybe require the 2nd class for aircraft that need a type rating.

Basic Med isn't recognized much outside of this country is it?

 

[Brad Z]

AFAIK, there is no respiratory standard for 3rd class (or 1st and 2nd, for that matter.). The exam doesn't even check resting and exercising O2 levels, let alone have a standard. So how is 3rd any better tha Basic in this regard?

Because if you have a medical history of respiratory issues you will be asked to provide further documentation. Report a DX of COPD and see what AMCD asks for.

 

[SFDukie]

Basic Med isn't recognized much outside of this country is it?

“ United States, Mexico, The Bahamas, The Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Guam, Republic of the Marshall Islands, and the Republic of Palau.“
allows US GA types to fly to some vacation spots.
Wish Canada would do the same, but it seems unlikely.

 

[schmookeeg]

So is the ask here if basic med can be tweaked to limit to operation over 18K cabin altitude?

 

[Palmpilot]

“ United States, Mexico, The Bahamas, The Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Guam, Republic of the Marshall Islands, and the Republic of Palau.“
allows US GA types to fly to some vacation spots.
Wish Canada would do the same, but it seems unlikely.

That's a pretty small percentage of the world's airspace.

Also, how do you fly to those vacation spots without entering international airspace? Wouldn't ICAO rules apply there?

 

[dans2992]

Q: What do you think the operating limits for BasicMed should be?

Personally? I think if you hold a drivers license you should be able to fly.

The FAA didn’t ask me though.

 

[TCABM]

Personally? I think if you hold a drivers license you should be able to fly.

The FAA didn’t ask me though.

Since a DL isn’t a medical, your position is there should be no medical certification required for any pilot in any equipment at any time?

I’m okay with that, just trying to understand your mindset re: medical certification for aviators, professional or otherwise.

 

[dans2992]

In a 2 pilot crew, pilots can and have died at the controls. Maybe for single pilot commercial ops, sure, have something. I’m not convinced any Class of medical cuts down on incapacitation incidents though. Would like to see some stats there.

obviously, test vision and make sure they are with it enough to pass a BFR… but vision is already part of drivers license requirements.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Are there really a lot of concerns? Above FL180, you’re likely going to be flying something pressurized. Sure you have to deal with a rapid decompression and emergency descent, but that takes minutes.

Not necessarily. Plenty of turbocharged piston aircraft that can go to FL250, some even higher.

Any pressurized single or twin piston is pressurized to 8K, right?

No. Every pressurized plane has a PSID limit for its pressurization system. The higher the PSID, the higher you can fly with the same cabin, or the lower the cabin can be at the same altitude. Some are better than others! But some of the smaller planes can outclimb their pressurization systems such that you may want/need to put on an oxygen mask even though you're in a pressurized plane! Here's a few examples:

Cessna P210: 3.37 psid, 10,000 foot cabin at FL200
Beech P-Baron: 3.9 psid, 10,000 foot cabin at FL220
Cessna 340 and 400 series twins: 4.2 psid, 10,000 foot cabin at FL230
Piper Malibu: 5.5 psid, 10,000 foot cabin at FL280
TBM: 6.2 psid, 10,000 foot cabin at FL310
Citation CJ4: 8.8 psid, 8,000 foot cabin at FL450
Boeing 787: 9.4 psid, 6,000 foot cabin at FL430
Citation X: 9.7 psid, 7,000 foot cabin at FL510
Concorde: 11 psid, 5,500 foot cabin at FL600

I think the they should replace the 3rd class with Basic Med. There is nothing in the 3rd class medical exam that will catch/indicate issues with flying in the Flight Levels. Not even in the 2st class.

Over 6,000 pounds? So a 6,000 pound airplane is OK, but 6,001 will fall out of the sky if you don't have an AME examine you? The same for the speed restriction. And even the number of seats.

With the FAA, it's all about who you can kill. The more seats, the faster, and the heavier the airplane, the more likely that you'll kill more people - Either pax, or those on the ground - if and when you crash due to incapacitation.

Whether it's pilot certificates or airplanes, the higher the potential for hurting or killing more people, the higher the standard of care in who gets to fly those flights, what medical exams they require, what equipment is required on the aircraft, etc... Yes, 6,000 pounds is a fairly arbitrary number but they have to draw a line somewhere and that seems like a fairly reasonable place to do it. You can fly a 310 or Baron, but not a King Air or PC12.

 

[Jim_R]

“ United States, Mexico, The Bahamas, The Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Guam, Republic of the Marshall Islands, and the Republic of Palau.“

Don't forget Washington, D.C....

 

[OneCharlieTango]

Why do they have to draw a line between BasicMed and Class 3? There are no differences in allowed equipment between Class 3, 2, or 1. Someone with a Class 3 can legally fly a Citation up to FL 430 on a good day, and do it single pilot with half a dozen passengers.

The fact is, the FAA has reportedly admitted, that Class 3 offers no safety over BasicMed.

 

[Pinecone]

There are no standards for BasicMed. There is nothing to prevent a respiratory compromised pilot from having someone sign off his CMEC. There's a fair amount of trust given to the pilot (and periodically to an unaccountable physician) to make an appropriate decision regarding his or her fitness for flight. Oversight is validation of that trust. Oversight increases as risk increases. That is why 121 airlines are subject to more oversight than part 91 powered parachute pilots.

In terms of medical oversight, when you get up to the flight levels, it is reasonable to expect higher medical standards.

What exactly is the part of a Class 3 medical exam that has ANYTHING to do with altitude issues?

 

[Pinecone]

With the FAA, it's all about who you can kill. The more seats, the faster, and the heavier the airplane, the more likely that you'll kill more people - Either pax, or those on the ground - if and when you crash due to incapacitation.

Whether it's pilot certificates or airplanes, the higher the potential for hurting or killing more people, the higher the standard of care in who gets to fly those flights, what medical exams they require, what equipment is required on the aircraft, etc... Yes, 6,000 pounds is a fairly arbitrary number but they have to draw a line somewhere and that seems like a fairly reasonable place to do it. You can fly a 310 or Baron, but not a King Air or PC12.

Except that the FAA agrees that there is no difference in safety between the Class 3 and Basic Med.

 

[TCABM]

In a 2 pilot crew, pilots can and have died at the controls. Maybe for single pilot commercial ops, sure, have something. I’m not convinced any Class of medical cuts down on incapacitation incidents though. Would like to see some stats there.

obviously, test vision and make sure they are with it enough to pass a BFR… but vision is already part of drivers license requirements.

Philosophically, I’m not sure medicals cut down much of anything. I haven’t had an vision test for a DL since 2012 when I got the corrective lenses required restriction removed post-refractive surgery.

That’s the only vision test for a DL I can recall since 1996; my entire .mil career due to exceptions for military members.

 

[ateamer]

“ United States, Mexico, The Bahamas, The Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Guam, Republic of the Marshall Islands, and the Republic of Palau.“
allows US GA types to fly to some vacation spots.
Wish Canada would do the same, but it seems unlikely.

Good thing for…someone…that geography isn’t part of the exam.

 

[Brad W]

What exactly is the part of a Class 3 medical exam that has ANYTHING to do with altitude issues?

the only thing I can think of is that the doc doing a class 3 should presumably have some focused aeronautical knowledge/training
where the basic med doc may not..... you'd think all docs would have a pretty solid understanding of the physiology, but sadly I think there's lots "they" don't know.....

 

[MRC01]

Philosophically, I’m not sure medicals cut down much of anything. ...

It can catch pilots who have lost vision acuity to the point they need correction yet didn't realize it because it happened so gradually. Same with hearing impairment. Or the blood test might detect glucose levels that signal risk of diabetes.

 

[TCABM]

It can catch pilots who have lost vision acuity to the point they need correction yet didn't realize it because it happened so gradually. Same with hearing impairment. Or the blood test might detect glucose levels that signal risk of diabetes.

I don’t disagree; except for visual acuity, those are also things a routine PCM visit captures and having spent a career flying in the DoD space, I’m well aware of what can be caught.

The challenge is understanding what predictive value aeromedical certification provides re: incapacitation potential.

 

[OneCharlieTango]

It can catch pilots who have lost vision acuity to the point they need correction yet didn't realize it because it happened so gradually. Same with hearing impairment. Or the blood test might detect glucose levels that signal risk of diabetes.

There's no blood test on a Class 3. Sugar in the urine might show up, but that doesn't argue in favor of a Class 3 over BasicMed.

And as TCABM notes, the purpose is to predict sudden incapacitation. The eye test does nothing for that.