Baron owners...inputs on what to buy

[Chris Dickens]

I've flown a variety of general aviation airplanes over the years, but got hooked on Beech products. I originally intended to buy a nice Bonanza but after flying around in a Baron my other half would prefer flying our family in a twin. I'm not opposed to the idea and told her that's fine, it'll just cost more.

That being said...I've never owned my own airplane. I've always rented, or more lately, used a friend's airplanes. Our mission is to generally fly 3 people on trips of 300-400nm most of the time. The airplane will be based in NC. On occasion, we'd like to take the airplane to the Bahamas or out west to Colorado, etc. Having 6 seats would be nice, but we could get away with just 4. Typical usage will be around 100 hours a year, give or take.

In my imagination, having something like a Baron 58P would be awesome because who doesn't like pressurization, built-in air conditioning, and the ability to get over a lot of weather? However, I've heard varying remarks about the cost of ownership, with some saying they are a nightmare, and others saying it's obviously higher than a unpressurized Baron but not outrageously so if a well-maintained aircraft is purchased.

On the other hand, I've thought about just getting some variation of a Baron 55. I've got time in a B55, I know my budget would comfortably handle a 55, and it would still get the mission done, although without the flex of the extra seats/room.

Acquisition cost...I would prefer to stay under $400k. Most of the NA 58s that are worth owning push this price-point, since those airframes are probably the best mix of room and operating expense. As for insurance...I fly professionally, I've got about 9,000 hours, most of it multi-engine turboprop and jet time, and about 20ish hours flying a friend's B55.

I'd love to pick people's brains and hear what others have experienced. I'm not looking to buy anything immediately, but sometime in the next year or so I'll be ready to hop in and start looking seriously. Thanks in advance for any and all advice!

 

[NoHeat]

Have you asked over at Beechtalk?

 

[Chris Dickens]

Have you asked over at Beechtalk?

I've jumped on to some discussions over there. Just casting a wide net.

 

[schmookeeg]

Plane ownership is a skill unto itself, and worthy of a checkride. I guess in a way, the first plane is a checkride and the fee may run into tens of avoidable thousands in expense before you can staunch the flow pouring out of your wallet.

A Baron as a first plane can be done. They all sorta meet your mission. Heck even a Travel Air meets your mission as-stated. Similar to the singles, the lighter the plane the better it will perform, and the earlier model years are generally lighter. For simplicity, I can say the 95 and straight/A/B55 motors are pretty low key. Get a straight/A/B55 Colemill and you'll get the non-geared alternators AND 300hp, but not the increased useful load or larger rudder. My first Baron was a colemill and it was a blast.

I think a turbocharged piston twin of any flavor would be a rough ride into learning plane ownership.

Whatever you get, train the hell out of you and it. Continuously. Never stop. Especially if you get a high-HP model which can bite.

Beechtalk has plenty of opinions and anecdata for you, and is worth checking out. After that, the American Bonanza Society is the type club you'll want to explore.

I'm biased. I have a high-HP light Baron (D55 -- so geared alternators), and instruct for ABS. Mix my opinion with that of others to get the picture.

If you're ever in the Bay area and want a Baron ride though, give a shout.

 

[RyanB]

I think a turbocharged piston twin of any flavor would be a rough ride into learning plane ownership.

Add pressurization on top of that and it'll be a humbling experience.

 

[Jim Carpenter]

With that purchase budget, you could consider a Duke, as well. Operating costs at 100 hours a year will be about $700/hour, a 58P might be $600/hr. If that doesn't scare you, go for it! But, a 55 Baron would work just fine for most of your stated mission, and might be way less wallet-wrenching.

 

[flyingron]

With that purchase budget, you could consider a Duke, as well. Operating costs at 100 hours a year will be about $700/hour, a 58P might be $600/hr. If that doesn't scare you, go for it! But, a 55 Baron would work just fine for most of your stated mission, and might be way less wallet-wrenching.

And he'd look cool in it

 

[MauleSkinner]

Note that some 58s and 58Ps (post-1984, IIRC) are FIKI. As far as I know, 55s are not. There is at least one STC for 58s (and I think for 55s) for FIKI TKS.

Personally, I’ve never seen the utility of a 58P…I flew one out of MN, and the overwhelming majority of my time in that airplane was at the same altitudes I flew a 58. Anything higher just didn’t pay unless I was over mountains. The 58P also likes more runway than the 55/58.

 

[schmookeeg]

Personally, I’ve never seen the utility of a 58P…I flew one out of MN, and the overwhelming majority of my time in that airplane was at the same altitudes I flew a 58. Anything higher just didn’t pay unless I was over mountains. The 58P also likes more runway than the 55/58.

My least favorite Beech twin for certain. Flies like a shoebox. Low cabin differential. Low speed for the fuel burn. I never saw the point of em. But people love theirs, so it scratches a very specific itch and mission.

 

[bradg33]

On the 58P, I've never owned one, but I know a couple folks who have. None of them have anything good to say about the ownership experience ($$$$$$$$), though they said it was pleasant to fly. I can say that back when I worked the desk at an FBO, we had a base customer with a 58P. Literally every time it flew, owner came back and said "take it to the MX hangar, I'll call the shop manager in the AM and tell him what to fix..." Seems consistent with most ownership experience reports.

If you want 6 seats and pressurization, I think the Duke is a better choice, provided you start with a good specimen (which $400k should easily do). Still pricey to operate and maintain, but they're likely a bit more reliable than a 58P and just consistent with expected costs of ownership for that kind of bird.

Straight, normally aspirated 58 is really a great airplane. But even those are complicated and can be expensive to maintain. Even a basic annual can be kind of pricey because they're just complicated and time consuming to take apart and put back together.

Twin Bonanza is the odd-ball choice. I own one, and know pretty much all of the active owners. Lots of airline/professional pilots in that ownership group. Easy 6 place airplane, easy to work on (big with easy access to lots of things) and will haul whatever you can put in it. Lots of variations over the years, some with superchargers, some with boots, some with airstairs, etc. Probably one of the better "values" if you can find a hangar big enough. $150-200k will get you a really, really nice example. 160-165ktas at 25-28gph for the NA versions; 165-170ktas (at altitude) on 36-40gph for the supercharged ones.

 

[tspear]

Anything but a Baron.

Tim (flame suit ready, I could not resist)

 

[MauleSkinner]

Anything but a Baron.

Tim (flame suit ready, I could not resist)

Super V?

 

[schmookeeg]

I have a very particular loathing for the Twin Bonanzas, however, I would sooner have someone start off with one of those for the gentle ownership/mx experience WAY before tossing them into a P Baron or Duke.

YOLO though. If that's what OP wants, OP should get one.

 

[tspear]

If you want fun to fly, get an Aerostar. Super fast, awesome fun to fly....
However, the hourly cost is like the Duke, but you go twice as fast (an exaguration, but not by much).

The non-popular answer here is a Cirrus SR22. It meets the mission, and is a travel plane, with well established price points.

Tim

 

[MauleSkinner]

If that's what OP’s wife wants, OP should get one.

FIFY.

 

[Chris Dickens]

FIFY.

Ha! Wife just wants another motor...doesn't need to be pressurized/turbocharged, etc. She got that way when we were flying to visit family in a Debonair (I originally wanted to buy a nice A36) and she asked "I'm just curious, but tell me what you're doing now" and I said "looking for a place to land in case the engine quits."

Ever since then, she's been in the twin camp. Maybe I offered up too much information when she asked what I was doing? lol

 

[Chris Dickens]

On the 58P, I've never owned one, but I know a couple folks who have. None of them have anything good to say about the ownership experience ($$$$$$$$), though they said it was pleasant to fly. I can say that back when I worked the desk at an FBO, we had a base customer with a 58P. Literally every time it flew, owner came back and said "take it to the MX hangar, I'll call the shop manager in the AM and tell him what to fix..." Seems consistent with most ownership experience reports.

If you want 6 seats and pressurization, I think the Duke is a better choice, provided you start with a good specimen (which $400k should easily do). Still pricey to operate and maintain, but they're likely a bit more reliable than a 58P and just consistent with expected costs of ownership for that kind of bird.

Straight, normally aspirated 58 is really a great airplane. But even those are complicated and can be expensive to maintain. Even a basic annual can be kind of pricey because they're just complicated and time consuming to take apart and put back together.

Twin Bonanza is the odd-ball choice. I own one, and know pretty much all of the active owners. Lots of airline/professional pilots in that ownership group. Easy 6 place airplane, easy to work on (big with easy access to lots of things) and will haul whatever you can put in it. Lots of variations over the years, some with superchargers, some with boots, some with airstairs, etc. Probably one of the better "values" if you can find a hangar big enough. $150-200k will get you a really, really nice example. 160-165ktas at 25-28gph for the NA versions; 165-170ktas (at altitude) on 36-40gph for the supercharged ones.

Thanks for the info. I love T-Bones...they've just got that old-school classic look. Only thing keeping me from seriously considering it is the age of most airframes and the lower cruising speeds. The B55 I flew for a while would easily top 180 KTAS in cruise at about 24 gph.

I'm fairly sure my budget could afford a 58P, the question is do I want to pay for it? Dukes are beautiful airplanes, but even more $$$ to operate than a 58P, and that's what I'm hearing from virtually everyone. I'm thinking a nice 55-series Baron or a 58 would fit the bill nicely, but still leave more money on the table to do other stuff.

And there's a point several have brought up...I don't know if it's wise to jump into the pressurized/turbocharged arena without ever having owned an airplane. Perhaps after a few years of experience operating something simpler I could move up if the desire still existed and the budget allows.

 

[Chris Dickens]

Anything but a Baron.

Tim (flame suit ready, I could not resist)

I'm open to other options...I've just always liked the build quality of Beech aircraft. I love the roomy cabin of the Senecas, though. I wouldn't be upset if someone gave me a really good deal on one!

 

[Chris Dickens]

Plane ownership is a skill unto itself, and worthy of a checkride. I guess in a way, the first plane is a checkride and the fee may run into tens of avoidable thousands in expense before you can staunch the flow pouring out of your wallet.

A Baron as a first plane can be done. They all sorta meet your mission. Heck even a Travel Air meets your mission as-stated. Similar to the singles, the lighter the plane the better it will perform, and the earlier model years are generally lighter. For simplicity, I can say the 95 and straight/A/B55 motors are pretty low key. Get a straight/A/B55 Colemill and you'll get the non-geared alternators AND 300hp, but not the increased useful load or larger rudder. My first Baron was a colemill and it was a blast.

I think a turbocharged piston twin of any flavor would be a rough ride into learning plane ownership.

Whatever you get, train the hell out of you and it. Continuously. Never stop. Especially if you get a high-HP model which can bite.

Beechtalk has plenty of opinions and anecdata for you, and is worth checking out. After that, the American Bonanza Society is the type club you'll want to explore.

I'm biased. I have a high-HP light Baron (D55 -- so geared alternators), and instruct for ABS. Mix my opinion with that of others to get the picture.

If you're ever in the Bay area and want a Baron ride though, give a shout.

How do you like the D55? I flew a B55 for a while...I loved the airplane. Unfortunately the friend who owned it moved and took his airplane with him. I'm also a member of ABS...lots of good info over there.

 

[tspear]

Ha! Wife just wants another motor...doesn't need to be pressurized/turbocharged, etc. She got that way when we were flying to visit family in a Debonair (I originally wanted to buy a nice A36) and she asked "I'm just curious, but tell me what you're doing now" and I said "looking for a place to land in case the engine quits."

Ever since then, she's been in the twin camp. Maybe I offered up too much information when she asked what I was doing? lol

lmao, now that is funny.

Tim

 

[Rgbeard]

Ha! Wife just wants another motor...doesn't need to be pressurized/turbocharged, etc. She got that way when we were flying to visit family in a Debonair (I originally wanted to buy a nice A36) and she asked "I'm just curious, but tell me what you're doing now" and I said "looking for a place to land in case the engine quits."

Ever since then, she's been in the twin camp. Maybe I offered up too much information when she asked what I was doing? lol

We can do that, you know.

For my IR checkride, I was warned the DPE expected a "thorough" preflight pax briefing. It involved everything I planned to do at various points of the departure in case of engine failure. I mean.... If I was a non-pilot pax, I wouldn't fly with me after that b.s.

Correct answer, "making sure everything's running smooth, and thinking about how your eyes and that sweater go together."

 

[tspear]

I'm open to other options...I've just always liked the build quality of Beech aircraft. I love the roomy cabin of the Senecas, though. I wouldn't be upset if someone gave me a really good deal on one!

Personally, I love the Aerostar as ai posted above. However, all things considered I have stopped fighting the market. If you want redundancy in case the big fan out front stops turning, I would stick with things which have large fleets and were popular. Twin Comanche, Senaca, Baron, and Aztec I think that about covers the large production light twins. Otherwise, a Cirrus SR22 fits the bill with the chute.

Tim

 

[TCABM]

lmao, now that is funny.

Tim

It’s also true and repeatable. Wife asked me that same question as we were headed to a new airport in the Gulf Coast.

She countered with “do they make a two engine RV-10?”

Then we went down the 310 rabbit hole and figured we need to keep an eye open on a partnership in one.

 

[flyingron]

I have a very particular loathing for the Twin Bonanzas, however, I would sooner have someone start off with one of those for the gentle ownership/mx experience WAY before tossing them into a P Baron or Duke.

YOLO though. If that's what OP wants, OP should get one.

Only thing worse than one geared Lycoming is two geared lycomings.

 

[schmookeeg]

How do you like the D55? I flew a B55 for a while...I loved the airplane. Unfortunately the friend who owned it moved and took his airplane with him. I'm also a member of ABS...lots of good info over there.

Mucho. Near 2000# useful, ~200kts, unfussy motors, simple systems, and generally a state of "anything more capable is gonna cost a bunch more to maintain"

 

[schmookeeg]

Only thing worse than one geared Lycoming is two geared lycomings.

I would send the new owner into a pair of gophers over the "10 lbs of ish in a 5lb TIO-541 powered bag" in the admittedly sweet looking duke.

I admit it's not a great set of choices. A basic NA Lycosour or Conti is easy first plane stuff. The high-strung turbo firebreathers or antique sewing machines aren't gonna be fun for anyone to learn ownership on.

 

[Chris Dickens]

Mucho. Near 2000# useful, ~200kts, unfussy motors, simple systems, and generally a state of "anything more capable is gonna cost a bunch more to maintain"

I've heard good things of the 520-powered 55s. Other than no FIKI and less room than a 58, there's not much to dislike. Seems a nice 55 can be had for a lot less than a similarly-aged 58. Insurance is likely a lot cheaper as well.

 

[Chris Dickens]

We can do that, you know.

For my IR checkride, I was warned the DPE expected a "thorough" preflight pax briefing. It involved everything I planned to do at various points of the departure in case of engine failure. I mean.... If I was a non-pilot pax, I wouldn't fly with me after that b.s.

Correct answer, "making sure everything's running smooth, and thinking about how your eyes and that sweater go together."

Yeah, it's ironic how that works...give them a good brief on how the safety stuff works and suddenly they get nervous. I'd brief passengers on how to open the rear windows in the Debonair and B55 and I'd get looks of "why, do you know something we don't?" I'd have to counter with "we'll be fine...but if the once-in-a-million thing happens, you'd probably want to know how to open that."

 

[schmookeeg]

I've heard good things of the 520-powered 55s. Other than no FIKI and less room than a 58, there's not much to dislike. Seems a nice 55 can be had for a lot less than a similarly-aged 58. Insurance is likely a lot cheaper as well.

Yeah I think people have discovered the C/D/E middleweight barons and they're starting to get sought after after being the unloved thirsty beasts in the barn. The 550s make them something really fun, and my D has a bigger tail than my former B, so it can take the HP upgrade much easier. The Colemill B could get rather rowdy/snappy down near Vmca.

I like em all though (even that P baron eventually, as long as the mission matches its tiny niche), pretty sound airplanes. If I can get up the courage to move into a MU2 or Merlin though, mine will be on the block for the next caretaker. I can't justify anything between a middle Baron and a low CapEx (not entry level ) turbine as worth the squeeze, so it's a really large step to contemplate. I think it's how folks end up owning the same airplane for 15-20 years. They just get in a value/mission sweet spot and decide to stay put.

 

[Chris Dickens]

Yeah I think people have discovered the C/D/E middleweight barons and they're starting to get sought after after being the unloved thirsty beasts in the barn. The 550s make them something really fun, and my D has a bigger tail than my former B, so it can take the HP upgrade much easier. The Colemill B could get rather rowdy/snappy down near Vmca.

I like em all though (even that P baron eventually, as long as the mission matches its tiny niche), pretty sound airplanes. If I can get up the courage to move into a MU2 or Merlin though, mine will be on the block for the next caretaker. I can't justify anything between a middle Baron and a low CapEx (not entry level ) turbine as worth the squeeze, so it's a really large step to contemplate. I think it's how folks end up owning the same airplane for 15-20 years. They just get in a value/mission sweet spot and decide to stay put.

Having thousands of hours in turboprops, I'd love to fly a MU-2 (not a good option for an inexperienced MEL pilot). Entry level pricing, however, belies the long-term costs...I have a feeling a MU-2 would eat me alive in maintenance costs over the years.

 

[bradg33]

Thanks for the info. I love T-Bones...they've just got that old-school classic look. Only thing keeping me from seriously considering it is the age of most airframes and the lower cruising speeds. The B55 I flew for a while would easily top 180 KTAS in cruise at about 24 gph.

I'm fairly sure my budget could afford a 58P, the question is do I want to pay for it? Dukes are beautiful airplanes, but even more $$$ to operate than a 58P, and that's what I'm hearing from virtually everyone. I'm thinking a nice 55-series Baron or a 58 would fit the bill nicely, but still leave more money on the table to do other stuff.

And there's a point several have brought up...I don't know if it's wise to jump into the pressurized/turbocharged arena without ever having owned an airplane. Perhaps after a few years of experience operating something simpler I could move up if the desire still existed and the budget allows.

If you really like the TBone, you should go fly one. May not be a 180kt airplane, but you're flying around in a living room that will carry anything you can put into it.

 

[Chris Dickens]

If you really like the TBone, you should go fly one. May not be a 180kt airplane, but you're flying around in a living room that will carry anything you can put into it.

They do look roomy. I’m guessing it wouldn’t fit in a normal sized t-hangar.

 

[iamtheari]

They do look roomy. I’m guessing it wouldn’t fit in a normal sized t-hangar.

I don't know how big a hangar will fit inside a Twin Bonanza.

 

[bradg33]

They do look roomy. I’m guessing it wouldn’t fit in a normal sized t-hangar.

Need a 50’ door.

 

[Fearless Tower]

They do look roomy. I’m guessing it wouldn’t fit in a normal sized t-hangar.

Correct. You basically need a 60 x 60.

I thought about a Twin Bo and an Aero Commander, but figured if I was going to need a bigger hangar, I’d be happier with the Beech 18….and I am!

 

[Fearless Tower]

And he'd look cool in it

But Dukes are pigs and you can’t run them Lean of Peak…

 

[Chris Dickens]

Correct. You basically need a 60 x 60.

I thought about a Twin Bo and an Aero Commander, but figured if I was going to need a bigger hangar, I’d be happier with the Beech 18….and I am!

Given the wait for a hangar at most airports, I may see about building my own.

 

[bradg33]

But Dukes are pigs and you can’t run them Lean of Peak…

And the tails fall off. Don't forget the tails falling off.

 

[NoHeat]

Ha! Wife just wants another motor...doesn't need to be pressurized/turbocharged, etc. She got that way when we were flying to visit family in a Debonair (I originally wanted to buy a nice A36) and she asked "I'm just curious, but tell me what you're doing now" and I said "looking for a place to land in case the engine quits."

Ever since then, she's been in the twin camp. Maybe I offered up too much information when she asked what I was doing? lol

Have you considered a Cirrus? For the question of what to do when the engine quits, the chute and its success are persuasive for many spouses. It's good for your mission of 3 people on trips of 300-400nm. Pulling the chute over water in the Bahamas has been done, with a good outcome.

 

[Twin_Flyer]