Baron down... Three killed Pallos Hills, IL.

Sad,may they rest in peace.
 
Unfortunately, simply citing a witness tells us nothing. Sure they might be right, but that would be cooincidence. In every plane crash in a populated area, you can survey all the witnesses and get 20 different stories. It was sputtering. It was running fine. It was deadstick, it was on fire, it was smoking, it was upside down, it was vertical, it was too fast, it was too slow, and of course, "he was at like 500ft".
 
Anthony said:
So Bill, you're thinking fuel starvation?
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I'd have to think the odds of taking off with less than three minutes of gas is improbable....not impossible, but improbable. I suspect there's something else in play here.
 
LDJones said:
I'd have to think the odds of taking off with less than three minutes of gas is improbable....not impossible, but improbable. I suspect there's something else in play here.
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That was my thinking. Taking off from Midway in a higher end plane is usually not fuel starvation. Midway would always have fuel (unlike landing at a smaller airport to find out the pumps are empty or closed) and I would guess Baron drivers have all sorts of fancy alarms and checklists for fuel. Maybe fuel contamination?
 
charheep said:
and I would guess Baron drivers have all sorts of fancy alarms and checklists for fuel.
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...we do?

Here's my Before Takeoff checklist:

- Verify Sufficient Fuel

And this one on my pre-flight:

- Bump wing, make sure fuel in tanks makes a sloshy noise

:D
 
Anthony said:
So Bill, you're thinking fuel starvation?
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Odds are low, but sure it's a possibility. Perhaps in conjunction with some other failure that caused loss of fuel.

You would expect a fire if there's a set of fairly full fuel tanks.
 
We had a Mooney in Kansas City end up in the ground right after takeoff last year - water contamination in his tanks is the preliminary suspect. It's been raining very heavily here all day, about 40 miles east of his intended destination. There would have been about a 4-5 hr VFR window at approx his time of arrival.
 
The weather wasn't very nice here last night. KMDW METAR from right after the crash:

KMDW 130353Z 17008KT 6SM BR OVC009 15/13 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP119 T01500128

I know what cause I'd put my money on...
 
That is some Awesome night weather!
 
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Turningfinal said:
The weather wasn't very nice here last night. KMDW METAR from right after the crash:

KMDW 130353Z 17008KT 6SM BR OVC009 15/13 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP119 T01500128

I know what cause I'd put my money on...
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ja_user said:
That is some crappy night weather..
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For the record, that is NOT crappy weather.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
For the record, that is NOT crappy weather.
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Cpt_Kirk said:
That seems like some pretty good weather.
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Bill Jennings said:
Not even precision approach weather.
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I know we have a lot of super awesome pilots here, but spatial disorientation in the clouds with a 200 ft. ceiling or a 900 ft. ceiling usually has the same effect, and its not good. Like another poster said, it's definitely crappy weather for some. Couple that with a long day (news says they were 3 physicians who flew up to Chicago for the day) and night conditions and those add a few more challenges.

Edit: Also consider his airmen certificate was issued February 2, 2014. ASEL, AMEL, IA. My guess is either the AMEL or IA was issued at that date.
 
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wsuffa said:
"there was no fire". Under certain causal scenarios, "sputtering" is plausible.
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True, but Barons have stout bladders, it's not uncommon for a Beech to crash with no fire and significant fuel still on board. Another factor is that JetA doesn't catch on fire all to easily either. I'll wait to see what the NTSB has to say first.
 
Henning said:
Another factor is that JetA doesn't catch on fire all to easily either. I'll wait to see what the NTSB has to say first.
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Ugh, I sure hope not. Damn if I ever let someone fuel the plane without me being there.
 
Turningfinal said:
I know we have a lot of super awesome pilots here, but spatial disorientation in the clouds with a 200 ft. ceiling or a 900 ft. ceiling usually has the same effect, and its not good. Like another poster said, it's definitely crappy weather for some. Couple that with a long day (news says they were 3 physicians who flew up to Chicago for the day) and night conditions and those add a few more challenges.

Edit: Also consider his airmen certificate was issued February 2, 2014. ASEL, AMEL, IA. My guess is either the AMEL or IA was issued at that date.
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Also consider that he departed VFR... He had issues getting his clearance on the ground, just another curveball to deal with..
 
ja_user said:
Also consider that he departed VFR... He had issues getting his clearance on the ground, just another curveball to deal with..
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Where did you find that out? If so, here was likely the current METAR reported on the ATIS at the time of his departure:

KMDW 130253Z 16009G17KT 10SM OVC017 16/12 A2989 RMK DZE34 SLP122 P0000 60000 T01560122 55002

Not sure if this was broadcast but it would've been right after he departed:

KMDW 130338Z 17009KT 6SM BR BKN010 OVC014 15/13 A2989 RMK AO2 T01500128
 
Henning said:
True, but Barons have stout bladders, it's not uncommon for a Beech to crash with no fire and significant fuel still on board. Another factor is that JetA doesn't catch on fire all to easily either. I'll wait to see what the NTSB has to say first.
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As will I.

Just noted that there were some plausible scenarios, some involve fuel, some not - lack of fuel, working fuel (JetA), etc are all possible.
 
wsuffa said:
As will I.

Just noted that there were some plausible scenarios, some involve fuel, some not - lack of fuel, working fuel (JetA), etc are all possible.
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If it is engine related, a double engine out on take off almost assures that it's fuel related.
 
Turningfinal said:
Where did you find that out? If so, here was likely the current METAR reported on the ATIS at the time of his departure:



KMDW 130253Z 16009G17KT 10SM OVC017 16/12 A2989 RMK DZE34 SLP122 P0000 60000 T01560122 55002



Not sure if this was broadcast but it would've been right after he departed:



KMDW 130338Z 17009KT 6SM BR BKN010 OVC014 15/13 A2989 RMK AO2 T01500128
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I listened to the live Atc feed. He departs shortly after 03:30z
 
Did he communicate before going down any issues?
 
No, he didn't. THey just told him to stay with them another 5 Miles but proceed on course, and then ATC tried to reach him when they lost radar contact. Not sure what altitude he was at, he was VFR on a 220 Heading on departure...
 
Henning said:
True, but Barons have stout bladders, it's not uncommon for a Beech to crash with no fire and significant fuel still on board. Another factor is that JetA doesn't catch on fire all to easily either. I'll wait to see what the NTSB has to say first.
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I'm thinking misfueling too.

Bob Gardner
 
Surprised to hear all the chatter about mis fueling based on notoriously incorrect non-pilot witness statements.

While the chances certainly exist for that...I'd much rather put my money on a VFR into IMC scenario considering the rapidly deteriorating weather in the 30 minutes since ATIS was released, nighttime conditions, his VFR departure to pick up a clearance, a long day (they flew up to chicago earlier in the day) and his seemingly short time with either his AMEL or IA.
 
Turningfinal said:
Surprised to hear all the chatter about mis fueling based on notoriously incorrect non-pilot witness statements.

While the chances certainly exist for that...I'd much rather put my money on a VFR into IMC scenario considering the rapidly deteriorating weather in the 30 minutes since ATIS was released, nighttime conditions, his VFR departure to pick up a clearance, a long day (they flew up to chicago earlier in the day) and his seemingly short time with either his AMEL or IA.
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I'm not putting money on anything at the moment. There most certainly is a potential for this to be a loss of control VFR-IMC scenario, lord knows most of the time it happens it happens to an instrument rated pilot. There is also a potential of a medical incapacitation, dude could have been dead before imact. I was just saying that with a twin engine failure, if that is what happened, the cause will almost certainly be fuel related. A misfueled airplane is not unheard of. A 421 topped off with Jet A went down on an air ambulance mission just a few months ago, and it happens a couple times a year.
 
Turningfinal said:
Surprised to hear all the chatter about mis fueling based on notoriously incorrect non-pilot witness statements.

While the chances certainly exist for that...I'd much rather put my money on a VFR into IMC scenario considering the rapidly deteriorating weather in the 30 minutes since ATIS was released, nighttime conditions, his VFR departure to pick up a clearance, a long day (they flew up to chicago earlier in the day) and his seemingly short time with either his AMEL or IA.
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So you seem to think an instrument rated pilot could not fly from VFR into IFR without being on an IFR flight plan? I am a new IR pilot and those metars you posted seem like easy transition weather. Maybe if this guy wasn't IR.
 
JasonM said:
So you seem to think an instrument rated pilot could not fly from VFR into IFR without being on an IFR flight plan? I am a new IR pilot and those metars you posted seem like easy transition weather. Maybe if this guy wasn't IR.
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Hmmmm.. Let's see.... Three doctors in a Baron ( just a larger Bonanza) crash.... What could possibly have happened...:dunno:.........:rolleyes:
 
bobmrg said:
I'm thinking misfueling too.

Bob Gardner
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You don't think that the JetA would have had an effect sooner?
Perhaps it wouldn't matter much until high RPM's?

And I don't know, I am just asking.

03:28:30
Negotiation with Ground/Clearance trying to get IFR clearance on file, instead decides to departs VFR

KMDW 3:30Z
03:34:15 With Tower, cleared for Takeoff
03:38:10 with Approach, proceed on-course with Approach
03:40:05 radar contact lost
 
Turningfinal said:
I know we have a lot of super awesome pilots here, but spatial disorientation in the clouds with a 200 ft. ceiling or a 900 ft. ceiling usually has the same effect, and its not good. Like another poster said, it's definitely crappy weather for some. Couple that with a long day (news says they were 3 physicians who flew up to Chicago for the day) and night conditions and those add a few more challenges.



Edit: Also consider his airmen certificate was issued February 2, 2014. ASEL, AMEL, IA. My guess is either the AMEL or IA was issued at that date.
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You make a lot of assumptions based on scanty info.

Are you aware that a request for new certificate following a change of address with the FAA also results in anew 'certificate issue date'?
 
ja_user said:
You don't think that the JetA would have had an effect sooner?
Perhaps it wouldn't matter much until high RPM's?
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Twenty or so years ago, there was a Navajo misfueled here. It made it a few miles from the field before the engines beat themselves to death. FAA guys brought some of the pistons and other internal components to a meeting. They were a real mess.
 
ja_user said:
You don't think that the JetA would have had an effect sooner?
Perhaps it wouldn't matter much until high RPM's?

And I don't know, I am just asking.

03:28:30
Negotiation with Ground/Clearance trying to get IFR clearance on file, instead decides to departs VFR

KMDW 3:30Z
03:34:15 With Tower, cleared for Takeoff
03:38:10 with Approach, proceed on-course with Approach
03:40:05 radar contact lost
Click to expand...

Depends on the ratio between JetA and 100LL, then there is getting the outboards filled with JetA, taking off on the mains and then switching to the auxes. That's why I was taught to switch tanks with an airport made and wait 30 seconds between switching one side and the other.
 
I remember my father once accidentally poured a 5gal diesel can into a gas powered car. He filled the tank up the rest of the way with gas and it ran... smelled like diesel exhaust too. Kept topping it off with gas to dilute it but there was never a problem, continued driving it for a while after.

Has the FAA or anyone else ever done any studies on what concentrations cause the engine to die? Also how long does it take a typical GA fuel system to purge the jetA after switching back to a tank with pure gas?
 
Fearless Tower said:
You make a lot of assumptions based on scanty info.

Are you aware that a request for new certificate following a change of address with the FAA also results in anew 'certificate issue date'?
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The registration cert for the aircraft was also issued in February of this year. He is also a fairly fresh physician. I don't know very many physicians that can afford, both time and money wise, flight training or a Baron throughout med school and two residencies (gen surg and neuro!!).

Sure, it's an assumption right now but I'm happy to hear why you'd think otherwise. This guy was still wet behind the ears for a pilot.
 
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