Banner Tow, Hollywood FL

Very unsettling. I have my own opinion, from the video, but I'll let Dan Gryder articulate it.
 
I’m trying to figure out if he released the banner just as the airplane stalled, or if releasing the banner caused the last bit of pitch-up to stall.

Either way, unfortunately he tried to fight it just a little too long.:(
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m trying to figure out if he released the banner just as the airplane stalled, or if releasing the banner caused the last bit of pitch-up to stall.

Either way, unfortunately he tried to fight it just a little too long.:(
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I don't understand making a mayday call and not releasing the banner. If I have an emergency while towing, lookout below. Obviously you don't want to drop the pole on someone, but drop it somewhere asap. Perhaps that was related to whatever his issue was though.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m trying to figure out if he released the banner just as the airplane stalled, or if releasing the banner caused the last bit of pitch-up to stall.

Either way, unfortunately he tried to fight it just a little too long.:(
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Yeah. I was waiting for that nose to go down. But it didn't. It was the wallow we are all too familiar with, with consequences also too familiar.
 
Sad to watch. Looks like was losing
altitude. Slower and slower hung on just a bit too late
 
The first thing that comes to my mind when I watch that video is possible mechanical failure. You can bet your a$$ he was pulling that release with everything he had well before the stall.
I hope there’s enough left there to determine the cause. Hate to see a good pilot get blamed for poor airmanship if it was in fact out of his control.
 
Turns my stomach to think of this guys final seconds. Imagine being a loved one watching this. Heartbreaking. May they find peace….
 
47PILOT said:
The first thing that comes to my mind when I watch that video is possible mechanical failure. You can bet your a$$ he was pulling that release with everything he had well before the stall.
I hope there’s enough left there to determine the cause. Hate to see a good pilot get blamed for poor airmanship if it was in fact out of his control.
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According to the broadcaster, he made a mayday call before this. If the emergency was a stuck tow release, how would he know that before reaching the airport for the drop? Maybe the tow rope was been fouling the controls? A partial loss of power and he hung on to the banner until it completely died? Maybe his transmissions had useful information.
 
It looks like the banner did release right at the end, so not sure if stuck banner release is truly the cause. Unless it finally gave at the end.
 
Assuming it was a Schweitzer release, about the only thing that would cause it to “stick” would be a strong upward pulling force by the banner.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Assuming it was a Schweitzer release…..
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That’s what I’ve seen when towing a Glider, but for banner towing isn’t it done differently?

edit: I found some close-up of the hook used for banner towing: most seem to be a boom that trails behind/below the airplane. But one case I saw it was a Schweitzer style release with a short length of rope + hook.

old post:
I was told that banner towing has a “tail hook” that hangs down and “snags” the banner.
Eg. videos I’ve seen they takeoff without the banner, then swoop-down and “snag a line” to pickup the banner.
See video here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qkO1VrH3XZQ

at 5:00 he shows the setup of the banner rope-line, at 6:30 he shows him flying down to snag it with the hook on his airplane.

Also 1:45 in this video:

In my quick search, I couldn’t find any close-up detail of the actual hook or release mechanisms.
 
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It's done in different ways in different operations. All have a release in the cockpit, but it may or may not be reachable if your hands are busy. We use tost hooks, which supposedly release at any angle, but everyone has their preferences.
 
There's a banner tow operation at our airfield. The release mechanism seems very crude and Rube Goldberg-ish. If it does not work, there is no backup cutaway method.

They do have well practiced procedures. The owner has 10 planes all over the country and puts a lot of effort into training his people.

So I guess my point is, like many types of flying on the edge, pilot proficiency is a major factor.
 
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Since we had a close call with a banner plane off of Clearwater during a search, I'll have a Coke.

What was on the banner?
 
That was tough to watch.

Rest easy, Aviator.
 
In the linked story it is noted that ATC had some issue with the altitude of the plane. Not much to go on but may indicate that there was a problem early on:

"Concerns about a banner plane's altitude were discussed between the Knaus and air traffic control shortly before the crash that killed Knaus.

During a news conference at the scene, National Transportation Safety Board Senior Air Safety Investigator Brian Rayner said the aircraft was a Piper Pawnee PA25-235 that was operated by Aerial Banner.

He said the aircraft departed North Perry Airport around 12:30 p.m. and was headed to the coast. During the flight, the pilot had a conversation with air traffic control.

"They were speaking back and forth, the controller had some concerns about the pilot's altitude and he reassured the controller that he was going to continue the flight. And then I think the conversation changed somewhat later in the flight," said Rayner."

Very sad story.
 
I watched the video..do you think it's possible that the plane was already in a stalled state. Looks like he was descending with a very high angle of attack and the banner possibly was acting like a stabilizing force. So when he releases the banner it destabilized the stall and subsequently spins the aircraft.
The other possibility is that he inadvertently pitches the plane up while he tries to release the banner causing it to stall.
 
francisco collazos said:
I watched the video..do you think it's possible that the plane was already in a stalled state. Looks like he was descending with a very high angle of attack and the banner possibly was acting like a stabilizing force. So when he releases the banner it destabilized the stall and subsequently spins the aircraft.
The other possibility is that he inadvertently pitches the plane up while he tries to release the banner causing it to stall.
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Looked like the behind-the-curve mush, followed by really bad things.
 
francisco collazos said:
I watched the video..do you think it's possible that the plane was already in a stalled state. Looks like he was descending with a very high angle of attack and the banner possibly was acting like a stabilizing force. So when he releases the banner it destabilized the stall and subsequently spins the aircraft.
The other possibility is that he inadvertently pitches the plane up while he tries to release the banner causing it to stall.
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It's entirely possible that the banner was preventing a spin.
 
Getting behind the power curve with a banner could be really bad. As you slow, the banners gonna sink and add more down force to the tail. Might get to the point where you run out of down elevator. And all that elevator is only going to make you even more draggy.
 
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