Lindberg
Final Approach
The point is that what this pilot did was illegal. That anyone thinks making it more illegaller would save these people is a head scratcher.
Balloon Pilot Who Killed 16 in Texas on Drugs, Had Many DWIs
- Thread starter jbrinker
- Start date
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
And it also wouldn't stop a guy like this.
Don't worry, government will fix everything lol
denverpilot
Tied Down
I can guarantee the rules around speeding don't stop it. Shall I fire up a dashcam? I don't speed. I'm pretty much passed by everyone on the road.
There have also been numerous threads here where the vast majority of pilots in this forum speed and openly admit it.
All the rules do is make people slow down for cops when they see them. That's reality. It doesn't actually keep anyone from speeding to post a sign.
It just gives them a goal for how much money any particular speed above the limit will cost them in the ticket and the additional profit to their insurance carrier.
Plenty of people harm others by speeding every day. Ask any ambulance driver.
The illusion that it works is maintained by the fear created -- it's not what actually occurs for the majority. If you know anyone else who has fully committed to not speeding, let me know. We're a serious minority.
I would go further than that. I don't think the 91.147 requirements are unduly burdensome. To take up a single person in a biplane for scenic rides, you need to be on a random drug screen program. To take up 15 passengers in a balloon you dont. Considering the relative harm from either, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Lowflynjack
En-Route
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2014
- Messages
- 4,309
- Display Name
Display name:
Jack Fleetwood
Because a ballon doesn't have a stick or a rudder!
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Doggtyred
En-Route
What is impractical about extending medical certification to commercial operations to THIS aspect of aviation? Not enough AME's? No infrastructure? Do commercial lighter than air guys have an undue burden meeting the medical certification requirements that other pilots might not have?
What!?!?!? Then how are they supposed to fly an approach? Maybe the FAA is barking up the wrong tree. . . .
Lindberg
Final Approach
When performing a cost/benefit analysis, you consider the cost relative to the benefit. So a very small benefit might not justify Amy cost at all. Since 1976, there have been 12 balloon crashes in the US, killing a total of 57 people (according to Wikipedia). This crash is a far, far outlier. Most have between 1 and 4 fatalities. And they come years apart. How much burden on thousands of balloon pilots is justified to save 4 lives every few years? What will work, and how do you know it's working? It's like asking what's the best ammo for hunting unicorns.
This simply isn't a real problem.
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,453
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
It wouldn't cost that much to require a medical of commercial balloon pilots who are exercising those privileges. The mechanism is already in place and there aren't that many of them.
Lindberg
Final Approach
How much is not that much? At a minimum compliance costs would be in the millions, plus add enforcement costs on top of that. Heck, just putting out the NPRM and dealing with comments would cost way more than it's worth. And if legislation is necessary? To accomplish, literally, nothing. Hundreds of people die every year in their showers, or their beds, our from paper cuts. Thousands of children every year suffer amputations from lawn mowers. Probably more people die from water balloon fights than balloon crashes. Out of the 57 in the past 50 years, let's say your proposed millions of dollars of regulation would have saved 16, if it was 100% effective. Spending millions of dollars to maybe save one person every 4 years doesn't pass the sniff test.
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,453
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
You got those figures, where?
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
You say it doesn't stop anyone, and you also say it does stop you.
Jeez. I guess you aren't anyone then.
Even the laws of physics don't stop some people from stupidity. I find it immensely curious that some people seem to think that makes the laws of physics wrong.
Speeding does have measurable consequences. Your post only proves that a whole lot of people are too stupid to work that out and DO need cops to tell them how not to kill themselves or others.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
I agree, between the LOA and the drug screening just to take someone around the patch in your stearman, it's silly and should be done away with.
Most all the crashes I've seen were not due to drugs or being drunk, it was from pizz poor judgement, plenty of straight and narrow folks have crap judgement, lots of puritanical folks are SOO rigid in their thinking that I'd be quite interested to see how they deal with a non text book situation in the air.
But it ain't about that, it's about the illusion of security and saftey, it's not about MAKING you safe, that chit is right up there with Santa and the Easter bunny, it's about making you FEEL safe.
Last edited:
Lindberg
Final Approach
SWAG. There's something like 5,000 balloon pilots in the US. Let's say 1,000 of them are commercial. My second class cost me $500. So you're already at half a million. Some of them are going to have histories that require additional testing, treatment, specialists, HIMS evaluations, etc. Then you have to factor in additional costs on the FAA side.
All this for, it bears repeating, no discernable benefit. Maybe someone could take a look at the fatal balloon accidents in the US (all dozen of them) and see if any others might have even had any chance of being related to a medical issue.
This should be well below outlawing slippery bathtubs on the list of public-safety priorities, and there's about ten thousand things in between.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
Actually there was a NTSB study, think it had a you tube video too, anyways, it was on the topic of speeding, basically roads had a natural speed limit, which could be changed based on width and how much of a shoulder was between the road and the tree line.
It also went on to that something like 85% of folks drove the natural speed limit.
Of the ones who did not drive that natural speed limit, it was the slower drivers who were more likely to end up in a crash, think it was based on traffic flowing around them vs them negotiation flowing past traffic, or something like that.
The study also made mention that many, many roads had artificially lower speed limits than what the natural ("safe") speed limit would be.
denverpilot
Tied Down
It stops me for economic reasons, however... not moral or ethical ones. I would drive faster when conditions were good and slower when they're bad, either way.
Using a vast minority, people who refuse to speed ever, doesn't really make your case for you on the morals and ethics of whether rules actually fix things. It's not why I don't speed. I could care less what the limit itself is actually set to, if the vehicle can safely do other speeds.
I'm just a cheapskate and can do time / speed / distance math, and know a rate increase on my insurance multiplies more than most folks', because we own five vehicles. No point in a $500-$1000 jump a year in insurance for arriving 4 minutes sooner. Money math. Not morals.
Sorry if I don't fit your mold of the perfect speed limit driver.
Find me a large number who obey it just because it's a law, and we'll talk. Take the monetary penalties off of it and see if anyone follows it just because government said to.
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,453
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
Most people's don't. My first with EKG is less than half of that.
Also, I'm only talking about commercial balloon pilots who actively give rides to the public for money.
Last edited:
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Wow, $500? I've probably have had 60-70 physicals (mostly 1st Class) and I paid anywhere from $75-100 I would guess. And most of those included an EKG.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
and with that
FOUND IT!
Yeah, looks like it wasn't really about "safety" or "the children"
That's the opposite of what I said.
I said I dont find the 91.147 requirements unduly burdensome.
Arguably that is because most pilots who transport the general public for hire (91.147, 135, 121) are part of a random drug screening program and dont use drugs.
Because judgement gets so much better if you are drunk or under the influence
The impairment of ones skill while under the influence of alcohol or certain prescription drugs is not an issue of religious belief but an easily testable fact.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
I wasn't backing you up, I believe all the BS hoops you have to jump through to legally give scenic rides should be turned back, they are not backed with facts and make nearly zero positive difference, except to hurt GA business and the publics POSITIVE exposure to GA.
As for your other point, well most folks don't fly drunk, not because the feds say so, its because THEY DONT WANT TO DIE, chances are the only way the feds are going to know, if you're one of these super drunks they worry so much about, the same types who don't often appear drunk, would be when the corner sends samples off to the lab after a crash. Now seeing how most homosapians don't enjoy death and pain, well...
Now don't be obtuse and go say some kiddy stuff like, "well why have any rules", that aint the nut I'm trying to crack here, what I'm clearly illustrating is that onerous rules for things like scenic rides need to go, things like artificially low speed limits need to go, etc
As for your other point, well most folks don't fly drunk, not because the feds say so, its because THEY DONT WANT TO DIE, chances are the only way the feds are going to know, if you're one of these super drunks they worry so much about, the same types who don't often appear drunk, would be when the corner sends samples off to the lab after a crash. Now seeing how most homosapians don't enjoy death and pain, well...
Now don't be obtuse and go say some kiddy stuff like, "well why have any rules", that aint the nut I'm trying to crack here, what I'm clearly illustrating is that onerous rules for things like scenic rides need to go, things like artificially low speed limits need to go, etc
timrb
Pre-takeoff checklist
According to the NTSB aviation accident database there have been about 769 balloon accidents since 1976, 62 of them fatal. Total fatalities about 120. So still far fewer fatalities than airplanes, but not insignificant, either.
Tim
Brad Z
Final Approach
Anyone have a fatal balloon accident rate per 100,000 hours flown? How about commercial ops?
From a consistent policy perspective, someone who is offering balloon rides (i.e. Not flight instruction) to the paying general public should hold a 2nd class medical. Same with glider operations. The public has the expectation that commercial pilots meet higher standards...including medical standards. I don't think most folks who sign up for a balloon ride would believe otherwise.
In my mind, if you're advocating no medical for balloon commercial ops, you're probably advocating the same for fixed and rotary wing equivalents. If you're not, can you substantiate the difference please?
From a consistent policy perspective, someone who is offering balloon rides (i.e. Not flight instruction) to the paying general public should hold a 2nd class medical. Same with glider operations. The public has the expectation that commercial pilots meet higher standards...including medical standards. I don't think most folks who sign up for a balloon ride would believe otherwise.
In my mind, if you're advocating no medical for balloon commercial ops, you're probably advocating the same for fixed and rotary wing equivalents. If you're not, can you substantiate the difference please?
Lindberg
Final Approach
Still quite insignificant. Hundreds of people die each year by becoming entangled in their bedsheets, and you want the government to worry about the one or two who die in balloons. How many of those were commercial operations, and how many of those were attributable to medical issues?
Lindberg
Final Approach
On the contrary. You are proposing a new regulation. The onus is on you to demonstrate it will serve some purpose. People's expectations are irrelevant if there's no safety issue.
Brad Z
Final Approach
I'm am proposing nothing. I made a statement.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
That.
Bbbbbbut, aircraft are scary and I don't understand them, I need the government to coddle me and "do something" lmao!
Last edited:
Lindberg
Final Approach
You said, "From a consistent policy perspective, someone who is offering balloon rides (i.e. Not flight instruction) to the paying general public should hold a 2nd class medical."
timrb
Pre-takeoff checklist
I made no such statement about what the government should do. I only pointed out that there were far more balloon accidents than you said. In general I am in favor of keeping the government, and especially the FAA, out of my life.
Tim
Brad Z
Final Approach
Yes, I did.
midcap
Pattern Altitude
threads like these is where you learn what people mean by too many rules and regulations.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Well done, and it's interesting that "big data" AND their own engineering standards, all nicely published on the web -- was used against the regulators to prove their shenanigans.
Well, that would be unless... the limits up there in BC were never raised, and I bet they weren't.
Luckily on my typical commute, the limits NOW are safe along the entire route. Up until a couple of years ago, one stretch of interstate where traffic normally flows about 65-70, was limited at 55...
And I was happy to be that center lane speed bump that everyone dodges, because ... I don't speed. Was tailgater regularly. Didn't care. Old car. Go ahead and hit it, we'll have some fun in court...
Ironically I do have a speeding ticket three years ago, but that's a long story about rural road paving and probably the DUMBEST Sheriff's deputy I've met out here. It's kinda fun... here goes...
First off, nice guy, but no too bright, When they stand at your window and watch someone go by doing 55+ in what they THINK is a work zone, and say to you, "Oh! That's the guy I *really* wanted to catch!", you just smile and nod and realize they sent this guy to the far end of a rural county to make sure he wasn't around the station to annoy anyone today.
What had happened was the construction crew folded up shop and went home at noon on a Friday, tipped over their work zone speed limit signs in the ditch (which were often tipped over and unnoticible from our continual wind out here anyway) and Deputy Dumb was parked IN THE ROAD pulling every vehicle over that came over the top of the hill by making some odd gestures with his arms, atop his 350 lb+ torso. Because he thought it was a work zone.
And guess what the county gets by law in a work zone? Double money! Cha-Ching! $$$$$$
He pretty much WAS the roadblock, by the way... you'd be safer to hit his patrol car than him. (Let's not get into physical standards for law enforcement, but this guy was enormous... and it wasn't muscle.) His XXXL safety vest couldn't be fastened in the front.
So I took my ticket, doubled for a "work zone"... and dint care. It was spring and a nice day, and I wasn't intending to speed anyway, and wasn't in any hurry. He clocked me 1
MPH over the regular limit on a downhill. Between the accuracy of my speedo and cruise control and his gun, I wasn't speeding. But anyway...
Background: Did I mention it took the construction company nine months to complete paving of four miles of two-lane dirt road, and it cost $2.3M dollars?...
I didn't bother turning around and driving back up the road to film that there were NO work zone signs visible. Probably should have. It would have been fun to show a judge.
Basically, Deputy Doofus didn't notice that there wasn't a single soul working on that empty county road except him at noon on a Friday... the lack of sounds from heavy equipment might have been a hint... but you know... thinking is hard. Hearing heavy machinery operating when standing in an empty county road in the middle of nowhere is even harder, I guess. The twenty or so workers cars not being anywhere in sight parked, probably didn't register with him either.
So recall this is rural and our courthouse is literally in the same building it started out in the county in the 1800s. It is almost an hour south of our place, and that's an hour further AWAY from Denver.
So yeah... I'll pay the $190 or whatever and know one ticket won't do squat to my insurance... not worth it. I haven't got time to spend a day down there. Who cares?
But the best part is he never shut up the entire time. My favorite one if his incessant comments while I just smiled and nodded?
Well there were two more...
"Boy, you're the nicest person I've given a ticket to all day!"
Thought to myself: Yeah... your little ticket there is most people's entire monthly grocery bill out here, dumbass. There are a lot of poor families out here, and you're handing out tickets in a nine-month on-again, off-again "work zone" where no work has been done in months, and everyone has watched the signage and cones were so abandoned for weeks, that people stop, get out of their cars, and heave four or five of them that blew into the road, into the ditch or further if they can.
Nobody even believed they'd ever even get this road finished at this point. Now he's out there giving work zone tickets. LOL.
And the really fun one which really showed the reason he was there...
He hands me a printed ticket from a thermal printer tape and I can tell he's got something exciting to tell me by the look on his face. Remember, I'm the "nicest guy" he's talked to all day, and all I've done is smile, nod, and hand him license and registration. Seriously. I've said maybe two syllables to him. I'm mostly watching a hawk looking for lunch who's landing on a nearby fencepost. It's that dull.
Now I've done radio installs in government vehicles and I know VERY well what Motorola and others get for these things... if I had to estimate it, I'd say a printer system, mobile laptop setup, mounts, and all the associated RF gear to send this data to an even more expensive server setup back at the Sheriff's office? For the size of their vehicle fleet, you're talking a minimum of $3M. This is rural. That same system in a city department would push $15M.
(We'll just assume they got a grant to pay for a big chunk of it... of course they did...)
Here it comes...
"We just got these printers and they're great! I don't have to write down anything anymore!"
After he spent nearly 10 minutes hunt-and-peck typing ... a license plate number... into his car's laptop... a speed number, and probably six mouse clicks... he's overjoyed that he doesn't have to take the extreme effort of hauling his 350 lb+ butt to the car to sit down, pant, and write with a ball point pen.
Yup. Weirdest ticket I've ever received. I really should have started the video on the iPhone, stuck it in the RAM mount, flipped a U-turn, and filmed the empty road with no workers and no signs for miles. Just wasn't in the mood...
Turned the tunes back up and went on my way.
Deputy XXXL there would need about a month of days like that to pay just for the laptop and printer in his car. Let alone his salary or anything else.
Oh well, at least we all know their unmarked cars are Chargers, and one is orange and one is black. Guess how many people who live on dirt roads buy orange or shiny black cars? ROFL. Brilliant, I tell ya. Brainiacs.
I get it. I used to work for a rural Sheriff... but you do get a good laugh out of it all, once you've worked for one. No doubt this guy was sent on the assignment to get him far far away for the day. Traffic stops in rural areas are such a joke. The folks who want to do 80+ on county roads know when there's only two deputies on duty and that they're down at the coffee shop in town at certain times of day... hell, one of them is usually their cousin. LMAO...
Dr. O
Pattern Altitude
Aww, he just got bad advice during training
He: "What do I do about power lines?"
CFI: "Fly high son."
He: "What do I do about power lines?"
CFI: "Fly high son."