Balled Up a C170 - 2 Deceased

Kenny Phillips said:
Yes, a friend of my father was that which you describe. Flew IFR, never had any FAA paperwork. Probably was more common back then.
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Heard tell of a man in TN around the 50s or 60s who flew night, IMC, whatever, as part of his business. Would get to altitude, set the autopilot to some approximation of his destination, set an alarm clock, and take a nap. Don't know if he had a license, but if he didn't he wouldn't be the only one around those parts.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
So, Dodd had 6 hrs of flight time on his application in 2013, probably flying a lot since then, gave instruction to his 54yo "trainee", and killed both of them?

So no other person or pilot said anything for 10 years?

Wow.
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Yeah, that’s the challenge, virtually nowhere in GA do you need to show ‘credentials’

How would anyone know?

I’ve purchased airplanes, rented hangars, bought fuel, annuals, insurance, repairs, etc. etc….yet never once have been asked for my certificate or any proof I am legal to fly…..
 
Highflier said:
I’ve purchased airplanes, rented hangars, bought fuel, annuals, insurance, repairs, etc. etc….yet never once have been asked for my certificate or any proof I am legal to fly…..
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You don't need a certificate to buy an airplane or schedule an annual or rent a hangar or buy insurance. But you do if you want to rent an airplane from the FBO where I work. And anywhere else interested in staying in business. Renters and student pilots must have a copy of their certificate and medical on file before they get the key.

When I have to fill out the form for our insurance, I have to give them my certificate number, among other things.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
When I have to fill out the form for our insurance, I have to give them my certificate number, among other things.
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When I take a flight review I have to give my certificate number ... oh wait!! ;)
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
You don't need a certificate to buy an airplane or schedule an annual or rent a hangar or buy insurance. But you do if you want to rent an airplane from the FBO where I work. And anywhere else interested in staying in business. Renters and student pilots must have a copy of their certificate and medical on file before they get the key.

When I have to fill out the form for our insurance, I have to give them my certificate number, among other things.
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Clearly when renting or taking lessons you need proof, thus I omitted these.

However if you want to buy a plane, my points are valid.

I’m not advocating this behavior, just an observation
 
It's also not unique to aircraft. There's almost nothing that keeps people with suspended drivers licenses from driving cars. Happens all the time, and people get hurt. I'm not saying that one justifies the other, just that aviation isn't a special case.

This accident doesn't bother me, though, in the sense of being angry about anyone, or surprised. That's based on the assumption that the two guys knew each other well enough to both know they weren't playing by the rules. They're adults, they took the risk, they lost. It only bugs me when people who aren't aware of the risks are hurt.
 
Lowflynjack said:
He loved aviation and working on his airplanes. .
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I noticed the "s" at the end of airplanes, so I check an online database. Yes, there were multiple airplanes, but recently only the one that crashed.

At least seven planes have been registered to him, at one time or another. He registered four different planes in late 2014, then one each in 2016, 2017, and finally the Cessna 140 in 2018. Some of them he kept only a month or two. Many of their current owners have let the registrations lapse.

BTW, here's the site where you can search for aircraft by owner (LASTNAME FIRSTNAME in the 'registrant name' field)
http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/AircraftQuery.shtm
 
midwestpa24 said:
I think the accident brings that into question.
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How do you know the proposing after takeoff wasn’t due to a mechanical or control issue and the crash on landing because they were trying to make it back with a airplane that wasn’t functioning right? Unfortunately we will probably never know because everyone stops looking as soon as they see that they didn’t have a license. Having or not having a piece of paper doesn’t mean you are a good or a bad pilot. It only means you are or are not a legal pilot.
 
kmacht said:
How do you know the proposing after takeoff wasn’t due to a mechanical or control issue and the crash on landing because they were trying to make it back with a airplane that wasn’t functioning right? Unfortunately we will probably never know because everyone stops looking as soon as they see that they didn’t have a license. Having or not having a piece of paper doesn’t mean you are a good or a bad pilot. It only means you are or are not a legal pilot.
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Flying illegally makes you a crappy pilot with poor judgement, every time.
 
kmacht said:
How do you know the proposing after takeoff wasn’t due to a mechanical or control issue and the crash on landing because they were trying to make it back with a airplane that wasn’t functioning right? Unfortunately we will probably never know because everyone stops looking as soon as they see that they didn’t have a license. Having or not having a piece of paper doesn’t mean you are a good or a bad pilot. It only means you are or are not a legal pilot.
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It's the stacking of the evidence. His family knew him as a pilot. He probably hid from everyone that he failed his medical and never got his license. If you look on his FB page, he worked on this plane as well.

It's like when there's a drunk driving accident where the drunk driver didn't cause the accident, but they'll be charged because they were breaking the law and there's an assumption they might have been able to avoid the accident if sober. In this case, the guy may have been able to save the plane in a stall/spin if he'd had the proper training. You're right, they won't spend a lot of time looking at the plane, but if they do, I'm going to make the assumption if anything was wrong, it was something he worked on.
 
Flying without a license happens all the time. When was the last time you asked your mechanic to see his license before he did your annual ?
 
Highflier said:
Clearly when renting or taking lessons you need proof, thus I omitted these.

However if you want to buy a plane, my points are valid.

I’m not advocating this behavior, just an observation
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Ray Charles owned a Cessna 310.
 
Doug Reid said:
Flying without a license happens all the time. When was the last time you asked your mechanic to see his license before he did your annual ?
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I check the airman registry to make sure anyone working on my plane is an A&P. Easy to do, also answers any questions I might have about their pilot ratings.
 
kmacht said:
How do you know the proposing after takeoff wasn’t due to a mechanical or control issue and the crash on landing because they were trying to make it back with a airplane that wasn’t functioning right? Unfortunately we will probably never know because everyone stops looking as soon as they see that they didn’t have a license. Having or not having a piece of paper doesn’t mean you are a good or a bad pilot. It only means you are or are not a legal pilot.
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Well he was also the unlicensed mechanic maintaining the plane, so likely still his fault. Nevertheless, the NTSB doesn't stop at no license.
 
It would be a kicker if he was working on other planes for the local pilots.
 
Doug Reid said:
Flying without a license happens all the time. When was the last time you asked your mechanic to see his license before he did your annual ?
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Certainly the person with the IA would sign it, and put their number. At that point, it doesn't matter much who did the work.
 
kmacht said:
How do you know the proposing after takeoff wasn’t due to a mechanical or control issue and the crash on landing because they were trying to make it back with a airplane that wasn’t functioning right? Unfortunately we will probably never know because everyone stops looking as soon as they see that they didn’t have a license. Having or not having a piece of paper doesn’t mean you are a good or a bad pilot. It only means you are or are not a legal pilot.
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I was reflecting on this about myself yesterday, because usually I like to pick apart accidents and see what lessons get thrown off -- particularly when the aircraft ends up in a tantric yoga pose -- but I stopped immediately upon learning this about the ... operator.

I think it's because I'm selfishly looking for lessons that would help ME, and since I'm not so reckless or cavalier about rules, nothing this corpse did could throw me any useful life lessons. About anything.

Having the certificate means you put in the work and proved it to someone.
 
schmookeeg said:
I think it's because I'm selfishly looking for lessons that would help ME, and since I'm not so reckless or cavalier about rules, nothing this corpse did could throw me any useful life lessons. About anything.
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The lesson here is that you should buy a 170 before some unqualified abuser turns it into scrap.
 
schmookeeg said:
Having the certificate means you put in the work and proved it to someone.
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That’s partially true. Having the certificate does prove that you put in the work and proved it to someone at one point in time. What it doesn’t prove is that someone without the certificate didn’t also put in the work to become competent at flying. They just didn’t prove it to someone. Inversely a certificate doesn’t mean you fly safely or still know how to fly. It only means that you showed someone that you met the minimum requirements on one day under one specific set of circumstances. Having a certificate doesn’t make you a safe pilot just like not having a certificate doesn’t make you an unsafe one.

Im not all against requiring people to have a license to fly but on the other hand I think some of the arcane medical rules are actually having the opposite effect on safety. This accident may be a good example of that. There are likely many pilots out there flying without a valid medical or license just because the FAA wants them to jump through expensive and unnecessary hoops that doesn’t make them or anybody else any safer.
 
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