Avoiding C90

azure

azure

Final Approach
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azure
Okay so I've volunteered to transport a dog from SE Michigan to NW Illinois (probably KFEP). I've no idea yet whether I will actually be the one to do this as there may be others better equipped for the season. But I figure it's never too early to think about routing.

First of all, just so the discussion doesn't get derailed into one about flying over open water: I have no problem going straight over Lake Michigan once or twice in a blue moon. It is a small fraction of my total exposure to certain death in case of engine failure.

A direct route takes me right through or over the north side of the Chicago Class B. I assume they will not let me do this IFR, and I would strongly prefer to do this IFR.

An alternative route would be to file direct JVL, avoiding the Bravo altogether, but I don't know whether C90 will allow even that.

The only other possible routes would take me around the south side, or much farther north. Or go VFR at 10.5 over the Bravo (which would be a last resort for me).
 
azure said:
I assume they will not let me do this IFR, and I would strongly prefer to do this IFR.
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At the risk of displaying my ignorance (and the fact that I have little to add to the discussion), this line makes no sense to me. And what is C90?
 
alfadog said:
Oh. I deal with Miami Bravo all the time and never heard anything like an abbreviation. M90???

And why can you not go IFR?
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You can, if you can carry enough fuel to handle the reroutes

The question is, why the desire to go IFR if the weather allows otherwise?
 
alfadog said:
Oh. I deal with Miami Bravo all the time and never heard anything like an abbreviation. M90???
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Oh, I deal with the Detroit Bravo all the time too. Chicago's hostility to FLIBs is legendary. Mind you I have no personal experience with them (see my map), but others on this board have and the good experiences really stand out as exceptions.
And why can you not go IFR?
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You can, but they are notorious for vectoring you halfway to the next state to keep you out of their airspace.
 
The most often cleared route takes you through the C90 Class B and across the lake... See below:

musatu2y.jpg
 
azure said:
Oh, I deal with the Detroit Bravo all the time too. Chicago's hostility to FLIBs is legendary. Mind you I have no personal experience with them (see my map), but others on this board have and the good experiences really stand out as exceptions.

You can, but they are notorious for vectoring you halfway to the next state to keep you out of their airspace.
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Got it. Altho you got me again with FLIB. Google that and see what it stands for. :yes:
 
JHW said:
You can, if you can carry enough fuel to handle the reroutes
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Even skirting the north side via JVL?
The question is, why the desire to go IFR if the weather allows otherwise?
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I prefer being in the system. And 10,5 is higher than I would like to be that close to my destination (my ears hate rapid descents).
 
TangoWhiskey said:
The most often cleared route takes you through the C90 Class B and across the lake... See below:
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I'm not sure how to interpret Foreflight's "most often cleared routes". Are they routes that people actually end up flying, or are they just initial clearances dished up by the system but, when you get close, you get a call "Cessna 123, I have an amended clearance for you, advise ready to copy"?

If I actually got to fly something like that, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I just don't want to get detoured to Milwaukee or Kankakee.
 
I don't fly over the lake personally, so don't know what they'll approve. I don't remember if you have an IFR GPS. If you do, file direct, because that'll keep you north of OBK coming from VLL. If you don't, I'd look at PMM V84 OBK.

The southerly route would be something like GIJ OXI EON SIMMN.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
Curious about that as well....where does the C90 come from?
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It seems to be the official FAA designation. The below is from an FAA doc referring to a few TRACONs and shows why I never knew about that since Miami TRACON is simply MIA.

"Charlotte (CLT), Chicago (C90), Dallas-Fort Worth (D10), Miami (MIA), New York (N90), & Southern California (SCT)."

Now, what is FLIB?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Curious about that as well....where does the C90 come from?
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Found the full list although the formatting is not so great below.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/tracon/

LocID Facility Name City State
A11 Anchorage TRACON Anchorage ALASKA
A80 Atlanta TRACON Peachtree City GEORGIA
A90 Boston TRACON Merrimack NEW HAMPSHIRE
C90 Chicago TRACON Elgin ILLINOIS
D01 Denver TRACON Denver COLORADO
D10 Dallas - Ft Worth TRACON Dallas-Fort Worth TEXAS
D21 Detroit TRACON Detroit MICHIGAN
F11 Central Florida TRACON Orlando FLORIDA
I90 Houston TRACON Houston TEXAS
K90 Cape TRACON Falmouth MASSACHUSETTS
L30 Las Vegas TRACON Las Vegas NEVADA
M03 Memphis TRACON Memphis TENNESSEE
M98 Minneapolis TRACON Minneapolis MINNESOTA
N90 New York TRACON Westbury NEW YORK
NCT Northern California TRACON Mather CALIFORNIA
NMM Meridian TRACON Meridian MISSISSIPPI
P31 Pensacola TRACON Pensacola FLORIDA
P50 Phoenix TRACON Phoenix ARIZONA
P80 Portland TRACON Portland OREGON
PCT Potomac TRACON Warrenton VIRGINIA
R90 Omaha TRACON Bellevue NEBRASKA
S46 Seattle TRACON Burien WASHINGTON
S56 Salt Lake City TRACON Salt Lake City UTAH
SCT Southern California TRACON San Diego CALIFORNIA
T75 St Louis TRACON St. Charles MISSOURI
U90 Tucson TRACON Tucson ARIZONA
Y90 Yankee TRACON Windsor Locks CONNECTICUT

I am guessing that the above are stand-alone TRACONs. A much longer list includes MIA and seems to be where the TRACON facility is incorporated into terminal ATC.
 
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gprellwitz said:
I don't fly over the lake personally, so don't know what they'll approve. I don't remember if you have an IFR GPS. If you do, file direct, because that'll keep you north of OBK coming from VLL. If you don't, I'd look at PMM V84 OBK.
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Yes, IFR GPS. I wasn't sure if the direct route was far enough north. PMM V84 OBK is another route I was looking at, courtesy of Foreflight.
The southerly route would be something like GIJ OXI EON SIMMN.
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Yes, that's about what I figured. :(
 
VFR at 10.5 is your BEST option, Dr. A....gives you engine fial options, you get to go direct. Just stay generally away from KRENA or C90 will start having heart attacks.

If you get FF the will use 91.129 and route you far far far, so that option is foreclosed.

Avoid the approach gates KRENA, PAITN, ROYKO, and BENKY, and you'll be fine.

It's not hard to see the approaches as they are lined up in a straight line....
 
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azure said:
F------ little itinerant bastard. (your choice of f-word)
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Oh, that is what I got when I googled except it came up "Irish". Well, that is one abbreviation I don't to have to worry about taking up any space in my memory. Thanks though.
 
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Dr. C -- thanks for your input. I see direct would take me just south of KRENA, so that's a bad idea.

What you say about FF is what I understood. I do prefer to be talking to someone though.

So it sounds like my best bet would be to go far enough north to be talking to MKE instead. Would direct JVL work? I recall that Jean didn't have any trouble with C90 going IFR to C59.

IFR at 10 or VFR at 10.5 for shortest time out of glide range -- but I would want to start descending no later than the west shore of LM.
 
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azure said:
Dr. C -- thanks for your input. I see direct would take me just south of KRENA, so that's a bad idea.

What you say about FF is what I understood. I do prefer to be talking to someone though.

So it sounds like my best bet would be to go far enough north to be talking to MKE instead. Would direct JVL work? I recall that Jean didn't have any trouble with C90 going IFR to C59.

IFR at 10 or VFR at 10.5 for shortest time out of glide range -- but I would want to start descending no later than the west shore of LM.
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Direct MKE is accepting overwater risk in exchange for avoiding a dust-up with C90. I would suggest staying within gliding range of the south shore and then by GYY, be up to 10.5. I object to being forced by ATC intransigence into a lesser level of survivability. The response to such intransigence is to exercise our rights to safe passage at 10.5. From there go direct, deviating as necessary to avoid the conga lines.

On the ROYKO arrival, LOOTH (~6 E of CGT) at 11K is what the part 121 guys are getting. LOOTH also about 6 nm S of GYY.
 
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Bruce, I respect your opinion on overwater risk but it's a risk I accept for infrequent missions. Where I'm based, my options are limited to one athletic field (9) and a railroad track (27). At night the track is invisible. My philosophy on overwater is to compare my exposure there to the risk I already accept. One or two such flights a year is within my comfort zone. YMMV (and obviously does).

The other reason I don't like 10.5 over the Bravo is that the western edge is < 50 miles from my destination. I'd be doing some pretty wide S turns. Though the thought of thumbing my nose at the arrogant b---ards by going right over their heads has a certain appeal, I have to admit.
 
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PIC Decision. Just remember the C206 that went down 4 miles offshore from Ludington, MI, on a turnback enroute from central michigan. That accident report is now published....crud in the fuel screens. And it's really not that much longer unless you're originating in say, Alpena.

CEN10FA465 http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20100809X15745&key=1
 
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TangoWhiskey said:
The most often cleared route takes you through the C90 Class B and across the lake... See below:
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I really doubt anyone would get that at 7,000' MSL as it would interfere with a lot of approaches into KORD.

If she were to go higher than 13k I can see that route, maybe. But more likely will get the re-route to the north (BAE) or south (EON).

Based on my last IFR flight from the KDET area and without saying anything about no overwater. I got Direct EON RV 3CK. I am guessing that she would get Direct EON RV SIMMN RV KFEP
 
ScottM said:
But more likely will get the re-route to the north (BAE) or south (EON).
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BAE seriously ?! :eek: It was a long time ago but I'm pretty sure we didn't get sent that far north going KPHN - C59.

What are you likely to actually fly if you file, say KPTK direct KJVL?
 
Liz, the direct route VLL to FEP is 284 nm direct. VLL to GYY to FEP is 196 + 104 or 300 nm. Just 16 nm added for having Zero cold water exposure.....that's why I think the way I do.

The way to do this is to file to DTG at 8000, but when you get to the vicinity of south lake, cancel and asks for FF. Just be sure to cancel before you get any place near GYY. Or, when he breaks you out to go farther south, just cancel at that moment.
 
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azure said:
Okay so I've volunteered to transport a dog from SE Michigan to NW Illinois (probably KFEP). I've no idea yet whether I will actually be the one to do this as there may be others better equipped for the season. But I figure it's never too early to think about routing.

First of all, just so the discussion doesn't get derailed into one about flying over open water: I have no problem going straight over Lake Michigan once or twice in a blue moon. It is a small fraction of my total exposure to certain death in case of engine failure.

A direct route takes me right through or over the north side of the Chicago Class B. I assume they will not let me do this IFR, and I would strongly prefer to do this IFR.

An alternative route would be to file direct JVL, avoiding the Bravo altogether, but I don't know whether C90 will allow even that.

The only other possible routes would take me around the south side, or much farther north. Or go VFR at 10.5 over the Bravo (which would be a last resort for me).
Click to expand...

If you go IFR the Class B airspace is of no concern as you wont get close to it. The Class B airspace is well within the airspace delegated to C90 and you will be routed clear of C90. The north boundary is the Wisconsin state line, you'll be routed north of that.
 
Bruce: I'll consider this, thanks. I absolutely could care less about the extra 15-odd miles. It's the gymnastics to descend 9000 feet from the west side of the Bravo that were bothering me. But after running the math, it isn't as bad as I thought. If I slow to 90 I really only need 30nm to descend at 500 fpm. I prefer to level off a couple times and yawn hard, but I think it's doable.

Steven: how far north?
 
Going VFR looks simple from a sectional standpoint. Go over at 10500, go south of Bravo below 3600 or stay on the east shore below 3000. What am I not seeing that others see?
 
RichNY said:
Going VFR looks simple from a sectional standpoint. Go over at 10500, go south of Bravo below 3600 or stay on the east shore below 3000. What am I not seeing that others see?
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That she said she would prefer to go IFR.

Steve, thanks for the input on how far north she'd need to be. I was hoping Northbrook would be far enough, but apparently not.
 
Actually, the northerly route is worth considering for the return trip. I will need fuel and Airnav shows KBUU at $4.69. KJVL and KEFT are pretty low too.

edit: or maybe not. That's pretty close to the LM shore. Unfamiliar fuel source, followed immediately by open water...
 
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roncachamp said:
Northbrook lies south of a KVLL direct KFEP route.
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True, and would add 1nm to the direct route. The southerly route will almost certainly involve Peotone and will add at least 35nm. As you said, your BRAVE routing only adds 7nm.
 
RichNY said:
Going VFR looks simple from a sectional standpoint. Go over at 10500, go south of Bravo below 3600 or stay on the east shore below 3000. What am I not seeing that others see?
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You arent missing a thing. A lot of ifr options might seem like they could work so people keep giving it the college try. After a couple of tours of wisconson or central IL, they come around to your way of thinking.
 
gprellwitz said:
True, and would add 1nm to the direct route. The southerly route will almost certainly involve Peotone and will add at least 35nm. As you said, your BRAVE routing only adds 7nm.
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I think he meant that if direct was too far south, OBK is even less likely to work.
 
JHW said:
You arent missing a thing. A lot of ifr options might seem like they could work so people keep giving it the college try. After a couple of tours of wisconson or central IL, they come around to your way of thinking.
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Wisconsin is actually a reasonable route for me. KPTK - KFEP, plan it out on FF. It doesn't add much distance at all, unless it doesn't work and they reroute me when I'm over LM. That's why I was especially interested in Steven's input.

The only real objections are based on not wanting to fly over the lake.
 
Have fun with Peppy the Papillon. I just saw the private message for this trip. I need to get start moving some animals when I'm home.
 
Yes, I saw you on the list of recipients.

I had never heard of this breed until today and wondered why they were called that. When I googled the name, Wikipedia had a picture of a dog with a face like a butterfly, and it clicked. :)
 
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