Avionics- What systems would YOU do?

Unit74

Unit74

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Unit74
Ok braintrust (You too eMan)....


You have decided to spend some loot on an Avionics upgrade. your options look like:

Garmin g3x at $20k plus-ish installed

DUal G5s and a Trio or Trutrak somewhere around $15-16k-ish

Aspen Pro 1000 for $10k ish (add an AP for another $7-8k-ish?)

Aspen E5 and a Trio or Trutrak for $15-16k-ish

Really what it boils down to me with is that if I go low budget, I get a new autopilot and a tiny piece of glass. If I go top shelf (g3x), I'l get awesome glass and hope my still working older AP runs for the next 5 years or better.

So is it smarter to do the G5s or Aspens and get the new Dig AP or spring big for the 10" glass and forget the AP? FWIW.... I use my AP almost every flight outside the pattern.

It's your money.... What would YOU do and why?
 
G3x offers an upgrade path.
I am a trio owner.
 
The G3X can range from $15,000 installed to easily $45,000 installed. I saw a quote from a big Florida shop that had the installation costing more than the equipment. They quoted ~$25,000 installed for the single 10" screen package with no add-ons.

Dual G5's or Aspen E5, in my shop, costs $6,800 installed.

TruTrak is $7,250 installed.

Lots of different options for engine monitor, if you are looking for that.

If it were my plane, I would start with budget, probably, then prioritize the options. In my plane, right now, I would put in a pair of G5's and a TruTrak, then look into an EI CGR-30 system for engine.
 
What is the airframe? What is already installed?

On a Cessna 206, the numbers could easily justify the Dual g3x, and anything less than that may be seen as giving up dollars in resale to save dimes.

In this market, if I could swing it (and assuming it already has a G430 or better), I would go for an AP before glass, and if I am spending the money on glass I would only consider options that would fail qualify it as TTA when finished. Again, this assumes a G430, if you don't have that, I would drop the glass, and just go GPS and autopilot.

Having said that, for a Cessna 182 or more valuable, you would have a hard time convincing me that the $4K for the g3x is would not be worthwhile. For an early 172 with an O-300, I may consider rolling it all the way back to a single G5 and autopilot, if I am only worried about resale.

But also keep in mind, it's your plane to equip as you desire, but you will never recover 100% of the avionics cost.
 
Hmmm. For me, this is a case of go big or go home, and it’s on a ‘forever’ plane. I guess that means I’m going to defer any of it until my current AP gives up the ghost, and keep adding to the budget.
 
It’s a Lance and has a 650 in it. No GPSS or anything. I’m sorta leaning on Aspen or G5’s right now because I think it’s more functionality. Doubt I’ll go with any other upgrades for quite awhile...... so this will be, say, a five year set up before I do anything else if at all.

But the G5’s don’t do much other than HSI. Aspen looks neat but lacks HSI on the E5. Even if I did garmins, I severely doubt a G3X or anything else would be in my future so that leans me towards the Aspen. At least it could be upgraded. Tough choices I think.....
 
Aspen E5 (Or ProMax if you can swing the price), paired with a TruTrak. Hard to beat the functionality, and upgradability in that combo for the price.
 
Right now neither the Trio or TruTrak are approved for approaches. So I'm going with the GFC 500 once I can afford anything again, and if it's half the autopilot of the GFC 700 it's well worth it in my book.
 
Doesn't dual G5's give more backup/reversionary options?
 
chartbundle said:
Right now neither the Trio or TruTrak are approved for approaches. So I'm going with the GFC 500 once I can afford anything again, and if it's half the autopilot of the GFC 700 it's well worth it in my book.
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My TruTrak Vizion will fly an approach to as low as you are comfortable to let it. :) . It will fly whatever my IFD540 is telling it to.
 
Lynn Dixon said:
My TruTrak Vizion will fly an approach to as low as you are comfortable to let it. :) . It will fly whatever my IFD540 is telling it to.
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Didn’t you have some sort of issue with yours with the antenna install? Did you go Max or E5?
 
Unit74 said:
Didn’t you have some sort of issue with yours with the antenna install? Did you go Max or E5?
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I am having an E5 installed as we speak. Hoping to have it done in a week or so. We've not had any issues with my antenna, that was anther person on the forums. I have heard that that unit was the only one Aspen had an issue with thus far.
 
The G3X Touch has an internal WAAS GPS that can be used for VFR navigation if you lose the 650. It will also display the frequencies from the 650. Certainly not a necessity but it is a differentiator. But, it uses subscription(s) for databases and that is an ongoing cost if you intend to keep them current. I don't believe the Aspen options or the G5 require a database. If you can wait and see if they get it certified the Aerovonics AV-30 seems like a great option and looks like it would be considerably cheaper.
 
Unit74 said:
Ok braintrust (You too eMan)....


You have decided to spend some loot on an Avionics upgrade. your options look like:

Garmin g3x at $20k plus-ish installed

DUal G5s and a Trio or Trutrak somewhere around $15-16k-ish

Aspen Pro 1000 for $10k ish (add an AP for another $7-8k-ish?)

Aspen E5 and a Trio or Trutrak for $15-16k-ish

Really what it boils down to me with is that if I go low budget, I get a new autopilot and a tiny piece of glass. If I go top shelf (g3x), I'l get awesome glass and hope my still working older AP runs for the next 5 years or better.

So is it smarter to do the G5s or Aspens and get the new Dig AP or spring big for the 10" glass and forget the AP? FWIW.... I use my AP almost every flight outside the pattern.

It's your money.... What would YOU do and why?
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It depends on what you already have. If you don't have a GNS430 that's pretty useful to get, but I would not waste money on additional avionics or upgrades. Avionics do not make the airplane fly any better. Our club plane had two G5's installed, resulting in a higher flying cost, but the airplane flies exactly the same as before. In fact, I don't like the G5. Those tiny purple dots hidden along the sides of a busy screen is hard to see compared to a traditional CDI. If there was a choice, I would invest in things that actually make the airplane fly better, such as service and maintenance, propeller, engine, engine monitors, fuel flow gauges, etc..
 
Dual G5 with a GFC500 and option pitch trim. The pilot's ADI has its own GPS antenna on the roof. All three G5s have their own standby battery. Oh, why not some nice wheels to hold those new AP switches?


I really don't see the attraction to the G3X without installing all the options that set it apart from others. Lotta money to do that.
 

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bnt83 said:
Dual G5 with a GFC500 and option pitch trim. The pilot's ADI has its own GPS antenna on the roof. All three G5s have their own standby battery. Oh, why not some nice wheels to hold those new AP switches?
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Now that's a yoke!

But why 3x G5 insteead of 2x?
I really don't see the attraction to the G3X without installing all the options that set it apart from others. Lotta money to do that.
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Losing the TC, altimeter, ASI and VSI saves you a bit of weight. And it's nice not to have to reach over or look over for anything (assuming all your radios/transponders/GPS are also Garmin). The G5 doesn't display TIS-B/FIS-B, right?
 
On that plane, I would lean toward the g3x. The value of the Lance would support it, and if you find yourself in a bind, an all-glass cockpit will be easier to sell.

One consideration I would suggest, how much weight will you get back if you get rid of all of the gauges and switch to the g3x?

The last consideration, what model is the older autopilot? What features does it lack that the new ones have? Is it still supported and repairable?
 
AP is the IIIb... pretty sure it’s century but it has Altimatic logo on it. Looks like the century but I’m not sure if they are the same guts.

Selling the plane will happen either when it hits TBO or we can no longer carry bags due to passenger weights. Growing kids.

That would happen in maybe 7-8 years.
 
From what I have read, the Altimatic IIIB is a pretty well respected 2 axis AP. I, personally, don't think yaw dampening would be enough to justify the added cost of a new AP. I have seen some references to approaches on Autopilot in this thread, which makes me wonder if there is an issue with your AP, because the IIIB should have glideslope coupling.

If I were in your shoes, I would overhaul the AP if the glideslope is not working or just stash away some just in case cash to do it later. Then I would spend the cash on the avionics I want.

In a keep the IIIB scenario, scrap the Evolution 1000 plan because the G5 and E5(for an extra $1K) can make GPSS work with legacy autopilots, and I presume g3x can too. As much as I want to say go for all glass, if the comparison is $7-8K for dual G5s vs $20K g3x, I would lean toward saving the $12k. But I would not choose any option that keeps the old vacuum system (I don't think any of your options will).

Sources:
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/july/18/garmin-g5-autopilot-support
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/c ommunity/threads/dont-buy-those-g5s.109749/
http://piperowner.org/everything-you-need-to-know-about-piper-legacy/
 
Hmm. Lance, GTN650 and Century III (yes, it's a rebranded unit) I'd go with dual G5's and a digital AP. Keeping the Century means keeping the AI and the vacuum system. That would look a little funny next to the G3x not to mention that you'd still be on the hook for a new pump every 500-600 hours.
 
Yea, that’s what I was thinking. That even though having glass is nice, at my level, it’s really more ramp appeal than it is functional. I am not a IFR flier although I’m rated. I’m 100% pleasure flying at this point and it’s more of a vacation machine vs gottaget there machine.

Thinking the Aspen just gives more bang for the buck. I have never flown behind an HSI so that argument is stale to me saying the G5 has one. If I go G5s, it is important to note I have no intention of going G3X later. This will be the only upgrades I do unless something actually breaks later.

So for $14-15k I can get a mini glass panel and a new AP. The question is G5 or E5 and what AP. I don’t know if Trio is avail yet but the Trutrak is so.....
 
Unit74 said:
Yea, that’s what I was thinking. That even though having glass is nice, at my level, it’s really more ramp appeal than it is functional. I am not a IFR flier although I’m rated. I’m 100% pleasure flying at this point and it’s more of a vacation machine vs gottaget there machine.

Thinking the Aspen just gives more bang for the buck. I have never flown behind an HSI so that argument is stale to me saying the G5 has one. If I go G5s, it is important to note I have no intention of going G3X later. This will be the only upgrades I do unless something actually breaks later.

So for $14-15k I can get a mini glass panel and a new AP. The question is G5 or E5 and what AP. I don’t know if Trio is avail yet but the Trutrak is so.....
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I'd still go Garmin if it were at or near the same price. More redundancy, more upgrade possibilities and might be more appealing to potential buyers when it comes time to sell.

However, I have a lot of Garmin time and no Aspen time so take that with a big grain of salt.
 
So I just took a look at Aspens Promos right now......

I can get a Pro 1000 PFD for $7995 and lock in a $2995 MAX upgrade special good till March 2020. Hey, that sounds pretty good right? Well, I can do an E5 and the same MAX upgrade is now $5k. So I've got a total of $10k in an E5 turned MAX or $11k in a pro 1000 turned MAX. Why on earth would anyone do a Pro 1000 at this point? What am I missing? Is it just me or does this look like a hidden ball cup trick? Remember, the Pro 1000 has to come out, ship to ASPEN and come back = down time. The E5 can either be prewired or have a couple hours of labor to do the swap and be outa there in less than a day.

I'm :dunno: on this as my shop suggested I do the Pro instead of the E5......:mad2:
 
Is Vacuum removed on a single Aspen Pro1000 install?
 
Unit74 said:
Is Vacuum removed on a single Aspen Pro1000 install?
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For the Pro I believe you need a standby attitude source. So if you have another electric powered standby then you can remove the vacuum system on the Pro installs. I'll be upgrading my E5 to a Pro this time next year, so I am hoping that the Aerovonics unit is considered as a standby at that time.
 
Flybuddy said:
Recently got mine back with TruTrak and E5. Works very well.
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Hey Flybuddy.
Hate to change the subject, but how did you guys wire the Aspen <-> Trutrak? <-> IFD?

Did you connect the TruTrak directly to the Aspen so it can drive it via GPSS? Do you have any sort of reversion switch that you can switch the TruTrak back to getting GPSS from the IFD in the event of an Aspen failure?
 
I was all set to do dual G5s and an EDM 930, but G3x dual screen EIS at a non-rip off shop is only about $6000 more. This is a forever plane, despite my getting another plane in the future, and the glass just makes sense.

Unit74 said:
AP is the IIIb... pretty sure it’s century but it has Altimatic logo on it. Looks like the century but I’m not sure if they are the same guts.

Selling the plane will happen either when it hits TBO or we can no longer carry bags due to passenger weights. Growing kids.

That would happen in maybe 7-8 years.
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Piper actually invented those APs later branded as Century. The Altimatic IIIB is the Century III, while the Autocontrol III is the II. Difference is altitude hold. They are very smooth, attitude based and still work decently when servos are overhauled. The only problem is you need to keep some sort of analog AI in the airplane, as the G5 will talk to it for headings and GPSS/Omni, but not attitude.
 
Flybuddy said:
Recently got mine back with TruTrak and E5. Works very well.

View attachment 73294
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How did they cut the hole for the mount on the Aspen? Hot knife, Dremel? I ask because my shop said I need to buy a new panel for 2400 bucks on top of it to look clean. They said the plastic will be brittle and if they break it, they would not pay for a new one. Yours looks good!
 
Lynn...I'm not sure on the actual wiring. Without the TruTrak Aspen integration yet I'm told the TruTrak head will have to be sent back for updating. There was no mention made on re-wiring so my assumption is that there is a data wire between the 2. The TruTrak is currently getting it's info from the Avidyne and there's no (data) switch.
Unit 74, it was just the plastic overlay that was cut and looks to have been done with a razor blade. I did have to clean it up a bit when I got it home. There are usually plastic panel overlays available reasonably at salvage. Here's one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Piper-PA-2...434711&hash=item3fbfa3e943:g:MjEAAOSwYpVcquA2
 
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