avionics upgrade

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jaysuwan

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Hi guys, I need some advice&suggestion on avionics upgrades here. I got a '67 cherokee140/160 14v system. I just recently got my ppl and moving foward towards my ir. So now's the time to dump some money into my baby.

So the goal is to make this into an ifr capable planes. I was thinking about doing the bare minimum without any gps at first but I want to see if it would make sense to do it with.

Here's my panel https://imgur.com/a/AYCsX6m

So a bunch of things are coming out so I'm doing pretty much the whole stacks.
So far this is what I have.
- Audio replace with gma340
- Narco 12A is not working so its coming out.
- Replacing the glideslope for MX12
- adsb probably go with the stratus and will do a mount for the adsb in on the front.
- ADF is inop so it's coming out.
- marker beacon will probably come out unlesss you guys think I should keep it.

That's what I got so far.
So my question is should I stick with 2 VOR/GS and replace the narco with something like kx155 or another mx12?
Or should I get a 430W or 530W or I was looking at GPS500W? then get a GTR200 so I have a second com?

What do you guys think? should I change anything on my list? or anything else you think I should add?

The budget is not really set. I'm trying to make this as low as I can without putting crappy out of dated stuff in it.

Thanks for every input in advancce
 
I have a really cheap panel that works well and all I need but I am not a IFR pilot. Here is a before and after pic. Just added a 696 and took out the old useless junk.
My goal is always to not be upside down on a plane. Some folks put $50,000 worth of avionics in a $20,000 plane.panel 172 2.JPG panel 172.jpg
 
That upgrade above cost me $1,000.. That includes the used 696 and all the labor at the avionics shop.
 
pigpenracing said:
I have a really cheap panel that works well and all I need but I am not a IFR pilot. Here is a before and after pic. Just added a 696 and took out the old useless junk.
My goal is always to not be upside down on a plane. Some folks put $50,000 worth of avionics in a $20,000 plane.View attachment 70308 View attachment 70309
Click to expand...
That's my concern too. Trying to ffind the right balance between too much and too little. I won't be trying to put g1000 in there that's for sure. But at the same time this plane will stay with me for quite a while so I'd like to put something in that would be practical for my mission, which would be 1. ifr training 2. XC around that country at some point. So I don't want to put just the bare minimum and then have to go through the labor cost the 2nd time again when I decide that it's not enough or I shoulda got more. I was going to do the
aera 660 at first new and all that would cost me almost $1,000 with the panel mount before labor, so i figured why not put that 1,000 towards something I can use for ifr too, if it's not gonna end up cost me an arm and leg of course.
 
The Cherokee 140 makes a fine IFR trainer, but not a very capable platform for doing a lot of actual cross-country IFR (unless you are in Arizona and hardly ever experience IMC).

I would sell this one and find one already equipped as close to the way you want. But if you are determined to spend money on it I would keep that distinction in mind.
 
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GRG55 said:
The Cherokee 140 makes a fine IFR trainer, but not a very capable platform for doing a lot of actual cross-country IFR (unless you are in Arizona and hardly ever experience IMC).
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Interesting take, because I have a 150 horse Cessna 177 that I will have dual G5s, GTN 650 and GTX-345 with GPSS through a Brittain wing lever, being a flat lander flying from airports around 1500 MSL or lower 98% of the time it will be a fine IFR ship. That being said, no kids or associated extra baggage to haul either. Its wet around here, 800 to 1200 foot ceilings are common all spring. That doesn't include the many days where VFR on top would have been great or the morning fog prevents launch under VFR.
 
We just put in 2 King KX155, indicators, and an audio panel. The only mistake we made was we should have put in GPS instead of the 2nd nav/comm. In my opinion it doesn't have to be a $16,000 GTN650. There are lots of $2000 GPS's on ebay that would work fine for the way I fly. If I flew for a living I'd want a lot nicer setup, but in my case, if the weather is that bad, I'll stay on the ground.
 
bnt83 said:
Interesting take, because I have a 150 horse Cessna 177 that I will have dual G5s, GTN 650 and GTX-345 with GPSS through a Brittain wing lever, being a flat lander flying from airports around 1500 MSL or lower 98% of the time it will be a fine IFR ship. That being said, no kids or associated extra baggage to haul either. Its wet around here, 800 to 1200 foot ceilings are common all spring. That doesn't include the many days where VFR on top would have been great or the morning fog prevents launch under VFR.
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You have one of the original 1968 Cardinals? Neat!

I suppose it also depends on what ones definition is for "cross-country". To me it's crossing multiple weather regions and, often, types of terrain.

I'd be more inclined to spend the money on a 177, any 177, than a low hp Cherokee, and this is coming from someone who has owned four Cherokees - 160, 180, Arrow and Dakota. And I loved owning and flying every one of them. And I still admire owners who take pride in their nicer-than-mine examples.

Your plane has a measurably higher aspect ratio wing than a Cherokee (9% more wing area, 18% more wingspan). With their "fat", short wing the low hp Hershey-bar Cherokees are "altitude challenged" (which is one reason the 235/Dakotas command such a price premium). Not a big issue in VFR, but does restrict options to deal with weather and turbulence in IMC. I can't imagine many things less appealing than 100 knots TAS in the soup for hours on end and being unable to climb out of it. A low hp trainer Cherokee is just a less capable platform compared to yours. And I would bet anyone regularly flying lots of miles in IMC in a low hp Cherokee will start looking to upgrade to a more capable airplane.

Besides, a well equipped Cardinal is a rarer plane than a well equipped Cherokee. I didn't tell him not to do it. Like some others on this thread, I just told him to try to avoid getting carried away (or buy a Cherokee from someone else who already did). ;)
 
How long are you going to keep the plane,a nice used kx155 with nav head and a panel mount 696,stratus adsb.
 
Where do you plan on flying IFR when you get your rating? Many smaller airports have only GPS approaches, and many existing VOR approaches will disappear in the next 2-10 years as VORs are decommissioned. If you are keeping this plane it would be better in the long run to invest in some sort of WAAS GPS than multiple nav/coms. There is also significant benefit in training for the IR with IFR GPS.

Not the answer most want to hear but GPS is the reality of much IFR flying in non metro environments. VFR GPS won't get you GPS approaches. It's a tough decision whether to equip a plane or trade up to a plane with a more appropriate panel. I bit the bullet a decade ago when it was clear that VOR and ADF approaches were going the way of the dodo at our and other small airports. But we have lovely LPV approaches with 250-350 foot DAs.
 
I usually get notification to my email when someone reply to the post but for some reason I didn't see so I thought this post was dead for a while.

So, my plane being 160hp is not so bad. I flew her back from tennesse to KLGB and climbed to 120FL at one point in august which was quite warm(althought she didn't really want to climb after 10,000MSL). That being said I am not sure where this will take me yet but hopefully I would get to see the country in this little plane once I get all my ratings done. I'm not going to plan to be flying in the soup, and especially not for that long, if I can avoid it. After thinking about it I think I will probably keep this for at least the next 3-5 years.

So far I already ordered GMA345, stratus adsb, and panel mount aera660( i love the IPAD but it keep overheating on me and having cable dangling in the cockpit is soooo annoying). I also bought a used kx155 with s and ki204 but got no respond when I put it on the bench today. So I started looking into SL30 and also saw a few GNS480 aroun4-5k.

What do you guys think about getting the 480(ill try to get WAAS if I can). Good thing about it is that it's about a little more than half the price of 430w which is nuts. The only concern I have about it is that garmin will stop supporting it effective 6/30/19 https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviati...sory-1874-gns-480-cnx-80-end-of-service-life/
If this is the case is it still worth risking getting it? If not should I do the SL30 or stick with the KX155?
 
Three Steps:
1) remove your ADF indicator and ADF
2) Install this: https://www.valavionics.com/ins-429.html
2) go fly

You'll have your precision approaches, two backups for LOC/VOR, you already have DME.

Your scan will be a bit quirky, but there's not much you can do about that.
 
Ravioli said:
Three Steps:
1) remove your ADF indicator and ADF
2) Install this: https://www.valavionics.com/ins-429.html
2) go fly

You'll have your precision approaches, two backups for LOC/VOR, you already have DME.

Your scan will be a bit quirky, but there's not much you can do about that.
Click to expand...
I am planning on removing all the adf related stuff anyway. I was actually looking at Val's stuff but I thought I can't use it since it's not TSO. If I go this route I'd still need to get a com unit and the VOR I have 1 is not working(not sure if it's because of the nav/com being down or not) and the other one is like 30 degree off.
 
That TSO status was news to me.

Second shot: Get an SL-30 to solve your nav/com and put a GI-106B where the ADF indicator is. Then if you want to get fancy or you find a great deal on a GPS navigator your CDI is ready for it. Probably ~5k plus labor.
 
Ravioli said:
That TSO status was news to me.

Second shot: Get an SL-30 to solve your nav/com and put a GI-106B where the ADF indicator is. Then if you want to get fancy or you find a great deal on a GPS navigator your CDI is ready for it. Probably ~5k plus labor.
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in that case. do you think 480w would be a good option considering garmin will stop supporting it in less than half a year? if it is i would jist skip the sl30 since 480 is a gps/nav/com then get indicator for it
 
I'll not say anything negative about the 480 (they are all WAAS). There are plenty that subscribe to the "end of life" philosophy.

How much panel you looking to put into ~$35,000 plane? That's not a negative comment, it's just a bit of reality.
 
Ravioli said:
I'll not say anything negative about the 480 (they are all WAAS). There are plenty that subscribe to the "end of life" philosophy.

How much panel you looking to put into ~$35,000 plane? That's not a negative comment, it's just a bit of reality.
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that's a tough question that i have yet be able to answer. so im trying not to go nuts on this upgrade. that is why i ruled out the 430 and anything higher since they are quite expensive. on the other hand i still would like to be able to do gps approach if i could do it with reasonable$$$, hence the 480. just concern about the garmin support that is all.
 
Even an old gps trumps a second VOR/GS. Put one good nav/com with CDI/GS and an old kln90 or 94 gps. A lot of people with scoff at the idea of putting an out of date unsupported gps in your plane but hear me out. This isn't an airplane that is going to be doing hard IFR work so a basic ifr approved GPS is plenty. You don't need a moving map as almost every pilot now has an Ipad with foreflight or the likes. Yes a 430W is a much more advanced GPS compared to the old king units but in my opinion they are seriously over priced on the used market. Most good units are going for 7.5k complete and for 2.5k more you can get a current supported model from Avidyne. The old King units are simple to use and last for ever. If the screen does die you can buy 5 more of them for parts before you get to the price of a 430W. The 430W isn't bulletproof either so if it's screen dies it will cost a pretty penny to fix or replace.

The value of your plane is only going to increase a few grand with a GPS, if that. Wouldn't you rather invest 3k to gain 1.5k in value versus investing 9k to gain 2k in value?
 
Grum.Man said:
Even an old gps trumps a second VOR/GS. Put one good nav/com with CDI/GS and an old kln90 or 94 gps. A lot of people with scoff at the idea of putting an out of date unsupported gps in your plane but hear me out. This isn't an airplane that is going to be doing hard IFR work so a basic ifr approved GPS is plenty. You don't need a moving map as almost every pilot now has an Ipad with foreflight or the likes. Yes a 430W is a much more advanced GPS compared to the old king units but in my opinion they are seriously over priced on the used market. Most good units are going for 7.5k complete and for 2.5k more you can get a current supported model from Avidyne. The old King units are simple to use and last for ever. If the screen does die you can buy 5 more of them for parts before you get to the price of a 430W. The 430W isn't bulletproof either so if it's screen dies it will cost a pretty penny to fix or replace.

The value of your plane is only going to increase a few grand with a GPS, if that. Wouldn't you rather invest 3k to gain 1.5k in value versus investing 9k to gain 2k in value?
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I hear you, that's why I'm not even going to get close to 430. the unit alone is already over the top then I have labor too. I keep hearing people telling me don't do old gps so I guess I didn't really look into it. So If I were to go that route, looking at the price of kln94, would it be better if I go with 300xl? this way I get the com too.
 
jaysuwan said:
I hear you, that's why I'm not even going to get close to 430. the unit alone is already over the top then I have labor too. I keep hearing people telling me don't do old gps so I guess I didn't really look into it. So If I were to go that route, looking at the price of kln94, would it be better if I go with 300xl? this way I get the com too.
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I don’t know much about the Older Garmin units. I only recommended the older king products because that’s what I have and you see a ton of them for sale dirt cheap.
 
pigpenracing said:
I have a really cheap panel that works well and all I need but I am not a IFR pilot. Here is a before and after pic. Just added a 696 and took out the old useless junk.
My goal is always to not be upside down on a plane. Some folks put $50,000 worth of avionics in a $20,000 plane.View attachment 70308 View attachment 70309
Click to expand...
My goal has always been to be upside down on a plane, but I’ve only done it a few times so far.

Seriously though, if I had 4 planes I’d feel the same way, but with only one that I plan on flying long distances in, I want to make it nice, which means I’ll end up upside down pretty quickly.
 
IMO, adding an older unsupported GPS only makes sense if you're not paying (much) labor to install it. In other words, if you're doing it yourself. Paying full shop rate to install an old non-WAAS GPS is economically foolish. I self-installed (w/ A&P sign-off) a used GX50 a little less than 2 years ago. I had maybe $2500 into the entire project. 2 months ago, Garmin announced the end of database support for that unit, effectively killing it for IFR use. Fortunately, I was only out $2500; I'd have been much more ****ed if I'd paid a shop several thousand in labor to put it in for me.

I'm just finishing an "economy" panel upgrade in my airplane. I went with a new audio panel (PS Engineering 8000BT), a Garmin GTN625 (GPS-only), a Garmin GTR200 comm, a GTX335, a Flightstream 210 and a G5 HSI. I retained a Narco MK12D that was already in the airplane and the associated VOR/ILS indicator. All-in, I spent a little more than $16k, and installed it all myself w/ A&P supervision using the Approach Fast Stack system. If you're handy, I highly recommend the Fast Stack system. Even if you're paying a shop to do the work, I'd recommending directing them to use the Fast Stack setup for future upgradeability.
 
GRG55 said:
The Cherokee 140 makes a fine IFR trainer, but not a very capable platform for doing a lot of actual cross-country IFR (unless you are in Arizona and hardly ever experience IMC).

I would sell this one and find one already equipped as close to the way you want. But if you are determined to spend money on it I would keep that distinction in mind.
Click to expand...

Yea I'd agree. My Cherokee 140 was great for my IR training and is just fine for maintaining currency, but it isn't great for actual IFR flying. MEAs are too high and climb performance just isn't great (although in the winter it isn't all that bad).

If I lived somewhere further east then I might think differently.
 
CC268 said:
Yea I'd agree. My Cherokee 140 was great for my IR training and is just fine for maintaining currency, but it isn't great for actual IFR flying. MEAs are too high and climb performance just isn't great (although in the winter it isn't all that bad).

If I lived somewhere further east then I might think differently.
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Sadly, I agree. :(
 
jaysuwan said:
I am planning on removing all the adf related stuff anyway. I was actually looking at Val's stuff but I thought I can't use it since it's not TSO. If I go this route I'd still need to get a com unit and the VOR I have 1 is not working(not sure if it's because of the nav/com being down or not) and the other one is like 30 degree off.
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You might read this interesting page from their site about TSO approvals: https://www.valavionics.com/installation-in-type-certificated-aircraft.html
 
I have a VAL 429 INS in my Cherokee. I trust WeirdJim because he stated two things: one, it was good stuff and two and most importantly, said the exact thing the link provided which was the equipment has to “meet” TSO requirements which the INS certainly does.
 
CC268 said:
Yea I'd agree. My Cherokee 140 was great for my IR training and is just fine for maintaining currency, but it isn't great for actual IFR flying. MEAs are too high and climb performance just isn't great (although in the winter it isn't all that bad).

If I lived somewhere further east then I might think differently.
Click to expand...
That's why I don't know if I should just put it the bare minimum on this and try to sell it while I'm working on my ifr or I should get it somewhat decent nd keep it for a couple years.
 
So Should I just not do the adsb yet and get a cheaper audio panel instead like a KMA24?
 
i dont get all the people still installing kx155's, 430's, 530's and the like. they are old and barely serviceable. the displays in the 155 are not available anymore, the upgrade is 1800 bucks, its an OLD radio. better to spend a little more and get a sl30 or even better a 255. the vals are good units also and are current production. same with 430's and 530's they are coming to their EOL. screens are a big question mark for them also. don't get me wrong i love the 155 but both of mine just died and its really un-economical to have them fixed.
 
jaysuwan said:
So Should I just not do the adsb yet and get a cheaper audio panel instead like a KMA24?
Click to expand...

Dear god, don't do that. Audio panels are cheap, cheap, cheap to buy (even new) and crazy expensive to install. Don't cheap out on the panel itself to save a couple hundred dollars when the install is going to cost the same (or more, given the need to interface a KMA24 with an external intercom).
 
unsafervguy said:
i dont get all the people still installing kx155's, 430's, 530's and the like. they are old and barely serviceable. the displays in the 155 are not available anymore, the upgrade is 1800 bucks, its an OLD radio. better to spend a little more and get a sl30 or even better a 255. the vals are good units also and are current production. same with 430's and 530's they are coming to their EOL. screens are a big question mark for them also. don't get me wrong i love the 155 but both of mine just died and its really un-economical to have them fixed.
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I don't get it either. My dad and I went through this process earlier this year. We looked at KX155s, but it made no sense to install one with the price they are asking. Not to mention if the display goes out your screwed (or upgrade to the new screen which cost an arm and a leg). I couldn't see installing a 430/530 unless you just got an absolute smokin' deal on one. Even then, like you said, they are at EOL.

We ended up with a Garmin GNC255 (which is amazing) and a G5 HSI. Before that, we spent money on 2 bad refurbished King 211C CDIs. It was a nightmare. Were lucky that our 201C CDI has held up.
 
I agree, if you live in the flat lands, with low elevation airports, lower performance IFR ships are fine.

The fact is that most aircraft for sale have junk that is hardly serviceable anymore. So anything that has a new radio should fetch a premium.
 
I went through this same exercise and decided it was better to sell the plane. The labor is going to be more than you think. Especially now, when every avionics shop is backed up for many months. It won't make sense to spend thousands in labor to install old unsupported stuff and you will never get it back out, when you sell the plane. As far as ADSB out goes; depending where you fly out of, that could be a lot more important, as you will need to have it to enter controlled air space (IFR or VFR). Not having ADSB out will also hurt your ability to sell the plane.
 
CC268 said:
I don't get it either. My dad and I went through this process earlier this year. We looked at KX155s, but it made no sense to install one with the price they are asking. Not to mention if the display goes out your screwed (or upgrade to the new screen which cost an arm and a leg). I couldn't see installing a 430/530 unless you just got an absolute smokin' deal on one. Even then, like you said, they are at EOL.

We ended up with a Garmin GNC255 (which is amazing) and a G5 HSI. Before that, we spent money on 2 bad refurbished King 211C CDIs. It was a nightmare. Were lucky that our 201C CDI has held up.
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We came up with the same thing but the avionics shop was looking at 9 months before they could install a GNC255. Instead, we installed a couple of KX155's and did the labor ourselves with supervision.
 
lancie00 said:
We came up with the same thing but the avionics shop was looking at 9 months before they could install a GNC255. Instead, we installed a couple of KX155's and did the labor ourselves with supervision.
Click to expand...

Man that's a real bummer hearing these long waits. We have an avionics shop on field that has been excellent in getting us in within the same week.
 
i think with all the adsb going on all the shops are way booked. luckily i found a&p i can work this with and ill be helping him out a lot so hopefully the labor won't kill me. the thing about going with the 255 is that i would need to find a garmin dealer and prices around here are not very friendly, if i even get the slot in that is. one shop i emailed and call and visited wont even call back and its been 3-4 months already.
 
Say if I was going to try to sell my plane to find something else. What do you guys think I can get out of it? basically I have the mx12 that works with indicator that needs to be calibrate. Audio works fine I just thought that since I am doing all this, might as well upgrade that too. DME works fine too. TTAF is right around 2900 and around 280SMOH. Besides all the avionic upgrade that I would be doing, she flies really great for around here in Socal.
 
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