Avionics education please

Will Kumley

Will Kumley

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Will
Seems like avionics upgrade options run the gamut of updated radio to full glass panel and looking at the options out there I sometimes get saturated in data I have very little knowledge with. Weird, since I fixed avionics in the Navy until a few years ago, although most of that was old tech and we didn't install GA units into our aircraft at the time.

So, suppose I get a plane with an old avionics panel and fairly basic steam guages, but I want it to be fully IFR capable. Assume the plane at least has an old com and nav unit with a basic audio panel but needs an updated transponder, and possibly com/nav/gps for IFR capabilities. I see some all in one units, would adding something like that make it IFR capable? Or would I need additional stuff?

If given the choice to do the same, what would you recommend? Not trying to break the bank, but if dropping 10-20K into the panel covers everything I'd consider it as an option. Would prefer a cheaper option as I'm just enjoying flying VFR right now and want to earn my IFR rating for a safety standpoint. Honestly, not even sure how much I'll actually use it once I get it but I really will never know until that happens I guess.
 
Posting a picture of the panel would help us suggest alternatives for an IFR plane.

for an all encompassing solution with current offerings a 650 and the appropriate indicator along with your old nav and com as backup would be one to consider. It would fall into your budget too.
 
If you have an older radio with NAV capability and a CDI w/GS, you are IFR capable for VOR and ILS approaches. You’re likely to find old planes with that capability already.

If you want to modernize it, a GPS unit tied to a CDI/GS will get you all the additional capability you’ll need for GPS/RNAV, and that should fit your budget. I’d consider those a necessity today. Look at Avidyne IFD-440/540 or Garmin 650/750 for NAVCOM, or one of Garmin’s other units if you don’t need COM.

Add ADSB-out to fly certain airspace if that’s needed in your area.

Adding autopilot capability will lessen the workload, but not needed for training and if you stay proficient (easier said than done).
 
So much depends upon the plane, and how much value you can justify pouring into it.

As suggested above, post a picture of the panel today.
 
The modern IFR system is GPS-centric, so the most important piece for maximum utility is WAAS GPS. Everything else supports or extends that capability, e.g., electronic gyros (from G5s to full glass panels), autopilots/GPSS roll steering, etc. Depending on the age of the panel, ADS-B upgrades and a modern audio panel may be required to make everything work right and/or be fully compliant for IFR.
 
The cool thing about the Avidyne IFD-440/540 or Garmin 650/750 is they have pretty much all the capability you might want or need when paired with a transponder with ADS-B.
Beyond that it is pretty much how much redundancy and frills (Glass Displays) do you want.
With installation costs being almost as much as the devices themselves there can be a good argument for just biting the bullet and putting an All in one system like these in.

However the reality of costs and and evaluation of what is really needed starts becoming a significant factor. For the just basic IFR flying for the most part nothing more than a WAAS GPS is needed and perhaps a basic VOR. So a Garmin 175 and indicator might make a lot of sense. But then if you also need a transponder/ADS-B a Garmin 375 might make sense. Or if you just need/want a 2nd com to go along with the WAAS GPS then the Garmin 355 starts to make sense.

Then you start looking at the total cost with installation and begin to wonder if you should just spring for everything in the 650. If they had a 675(fictional 650 with the transponder/ADS-B built in) then it could be an even harder decision.

The best advise I can recommend is make sure you look at the total installed price, not just the price of the unit itself, of what you are considering, imo this can make some of the lower cost and especially used units not make very much sense.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Will Kumley said:
So, suppose I get a plane with an old avionics panel and fairly basic steam guages, but I want it to be fully IFR capable. Assume the plane at least has an old com and nav unit with a basic audio panel but needs an updated transponder, and possibly com/nav/gps for IFR capabilities. I see some all in one units, would adding something like that make it IFR capable? Or would I need additional stuff?
Click to expand...
As @chemgeek pointed out, the modern IFR system is GPS-centric so a WAAS GPS is your first step. Since the supposed plane theoretically also needs a transponder, a Garmin GNX375 along with an indicator kills both birds with one stone. If the existing NAV has localizer/glidescope capability then you've pretty much got everything regarding navigation.

Does this theoretical plane have 1 COM or 2? If needed then adding a second isn't particularly expensive or difficult. However, your avionics dealer may or may not balk at trying to work with an older audio panel, in which case a PS Engineering PAR-200b radio kills those 2 birds with one stone.

Figure approximately:
  • GNX375 = $8k + 26 hours labor
  • COM2 = around $1.3k (ICOM A220, Trig TY91) to $2k (Trig TY96A, Garmin GTR225) + 10 hours labor, or a whole lot more for a PAR200B
 
MBDiagMan said:
Posting a picture of the panel would help us suggest alternatives for an IFR plane.

for an all encompassing solution with current offerings a 650 and the appropriate indicator along with your old nav and com as backup would be one to consider. It would fall into your budget too.
Click to expand...
Here’s a plane I looked at today. Not the prettiest bird on the field but the price might be right. I’m hoping 10-15k to make it IFR capable. Nothing crazy, figure I’d need to add a pitot with heat capability, a 650 or something similar and I’d upgrade the audio panel at the same time to make it a 4 place intercom. If it’s not terribly expensive I’d also look into rearranging the steam gauges so they are in a traditional layout to make it easier for ifr training.
 

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Will Kumley said:
Here’s a plane I looked at today. Not the prettiest bird on the field but the price might be right. I’m hoping 10-15k to make it IFR capable. Nothing crazy, figure I’d need to add a pitot with heat capability, a 650 or something similar and I’d upgrade the audio panel at the same time to make it a 4 place intercom. If it’s not terribly expensive I’d also look into rearranging the steam gauges so they are in a traditional layout to make it easier for ifr training.
Click to expand...
You aren't going to get a 650 for $10k-15k. Since that panel already has 2 NAV/COM's and one of them has localizer/glidescope, just toss in a GNX375 and call it a day.
 
Yep, I was debating something similar. Maybe replace the Loran with a GPS 175 and upgrade the audio panel. Option 2 would be to remove the Loran, and replace one of the Narco Com/Nav units with a GNC 355 and again, update the audio panel. The plane already has an updated transponder with adsb out. Ideally, I'd like adsb in as well that can be tied to the GPS unit but not sure how difficult it is to add the "in" functionality.
 
I’ve been looking at a lot of avionics upgrades lately. I like option 2 with a 355 to replace one in the aging nav/coms and save the other as a spare. Get a Stratus portable unit to get the ADS-B in to you EFB.
 
Will Kumley said:
Maybe replace the Loran with a GPS 175 and upgrade the audio panel.
Click to expand...
Replacing the Loran with a GPS175 would be the quickest and easiest, but you'd need an indicator and/or a switch/relay of some sort (I didn't see any spare holes for a new CDI). Upgrading the audio panel is a lot of work relative to the equipment cost.
Option 2 would be to remove the Loran, and replace one of the Narco Com/Nav units with a GNC 355 and again, update the audio panel.
Click to expand...
Doing that, you'd be going from 2 NAV down to 1. That makes VOR checks a bit of pain. Plus, I consider the GNC355 the least of the bunch for a couple of operational reasons:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/garmin-355-vs-375.134314/#post-3145567

Ideally, I'd like adsb in as well that can be tied to the GPS unit but not sure how difficult it is to add the "in" functionality.
Click to expand...
GNX375 is both ADSB-Out and ADSB-In so you can get traffic/weather/NOTAMS on its moving map. Plus it has Bluetooth, so you can also get it on your tablet/phone/Aera, too. And it has built-in AHRS, which makes synthetic vision on those devices a lot more useful, too. But as with the GPS175, you'd have to think about a CDI.
 
asicer said:
Replacing the Loran with a GPS175 would be the quickest and easiest, but you'd need an indicator and/or a switch/relay of some sort (I didn't see any spare holes for a new CDI). Upgrading the audio panel is a lot of work relative to the equipment cost.
Doing that, you'd be going from 2 NAV down to 1. That makes VOR checks a bit of pain. Plus, I consider the GNC355 the least of the bunch for a couple of operational reasons:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/garmin-355-vs-375.134314/#post-3145567

GNX375 is both ADSB-Out and ADSB-In so you can get traffic/weather/NOTAMS on its moving map. Plus it has Bluetooth, so you can also get it on your tablet/phone/Aera, too. And it has built-in AHRS, which makes synthetic vision on those devices a lot more useful, too. But as with the GPS175, you'd have to think about a CDI.
Click to expand...
Thanks I’ll take a look at the 375. For some reason I thought the 355 still had a nav radio that could be tied to the cdi.
 
An alternative for the required CDI for the WAAS GPS is a G5 HSI, which can be your primary (NAV #1) CDI. If you are going to open everything up anyway to do major avionics work, one might as well consider getting rid of the vacuum system and installing dual G5s, unless you need vacuum equipment to drive an autopilot. The G5 HSI has a lot of advantages over a vacuum DG and a mechanical CDI. Of course, it's easy to spend your money all at once. But I haven't regretted my dual G5s and ripping out the vacuum system for a minute.
 
chemgeek said:
An alternative for the required CDI for the WAAS GPS is a G5 HSI, which can be your primary (NAV #1) CDI. If you are going to open everything up anyway to do major avionics work, one might as well consider getting rid of the vacuum system and installing dual G5s, unless you need vacuum equipment to drive an autopilot. The G5 HSI has a lot of advantages over a vacuum DG and a mechanical CDI. Of course, it's easy to spend your money all at once. But I haven't regretted my dual G5s and ripping out the vacuum system for a minute.
Click to expand...
Yup, definitely the way to go if the budget allows. But dual G5 are about $8k-$10k installed.
 
chemgeek said:
An alternative for the required CDI for the WAAS GPS is a G5 HSI, which can be your primary (NAV #1) CDI. If you are going to open everything up anyway to do major avionics work, one might as well consider getting rid of the vacuum system and installing dual G5s, unless you need vacuum equipment to drive an autopilot. The G5 HSI has a lot of advantages over a vacuum DG and a mechanical CDI. Of course, it's easy to spend your money all at once. But I haven't regretted my dual G5s and ripping out the vacuum system for a minute.
Click to expand...
Dual G5's would be amazing. But I think I'd rather put the money into other things first. I might consider a single G5 for the HSI/CDI but will need to figure out just how much of the budget I want to drop on it.
 
IMHO -
1) bite the bullet and pay $25k for a GTN 650. Why fly IFR and handicap yourself by not having it.
2) during the install, change the order of the six pack back to normal

IFR flying is going to be hard enough learning to scan. Doing that with out of order instruments will be harder and maybe instill odd/bad scanning habits.
 
WDD said:
IMHO -
1) bite the bullet and pay $25k for a GTN 650. Why fly IFR and handicap yourself by not having it.
Click to expand...

I am curious why pay 25k for GTN 650 instead of 10k for GPS175+G5? What do you get for 15k?
 
  • You’ll not get an installed G5 and 175 for $10k.
  • With the 650 you get second and modern nav com.
  • IMHO the 650 screen is adequate but barely - I’d not reco anything smaller.
  • The 650 is the “Standard go to” for a good reason - it’s a good combination of features that works very well.
 
WDD said:
  • You’ll not get an installed G5 and 175 for $10k.
  • With the 650 you get second and modern nav com.
Click to expand...
Even after adding a few more bucks for the 175+G5, the extra $13k difference to get the GTN650 is a lot of scratch for just a NAV/COM.
 
asicer said:
Even after adding a few more bucks for the 175+G5, the extra $13k difference to get the GTN650 is a lot of scratch for just a NAV/COM.
Click to expand...
I like the idea of the 175 + G5 setup but when I do find a plane something I may need to consider is panel space available. A GTN 650 combines so much into one unit and doesn't take up a ton of real estate. However, it does mean that if it fails I've got a much larger impact on what is affected by a failed unit. Seems like this decision will be made after I find a suitable plane that works for what I need.
 
Will Kumley said:
I like the idea of the 175 + G5 setup but when I do find a plane something I may need to consider is panel space available. A GTN 650 combines so much into one unit and doesn't take up a ton of real estate. However, it does mean that if it fails I've got a much larger impact on what is affected by a failed unit. Seems like this decision will be made after I find a suitable plane that works for what I need.
Click to expand...
Alongside the GPS175, you could install a VAL INS429 (depending on whether your A&P is willing to sign off on it) and a PAR200B. Total panel space for that would be even less than a GTN650, yet still get you GPS+NAV+COM.
 
asicer said:
Even after adding a few more bucks for the 175+G5, the extra $13k difference to get the GTN650 is a lot of scratch for just a NAV/COM.
Click to expand...
If you have better pricing, fantastic.

GTN 650 xi. Unit cost $12700. Installed all in? My guess $25k. Maybe $20k

GPS 175. Unit cost $5300. Installed in? $10k?

G5 unit cost $2600. Installed? $7500 (so our club mechanic says).

Either way at the end of the day what’s right is what your preference is.
 
WDD said:
If you have better pricing, fantastic.

GTN 650 xi. Unit cost $12700. Installed all in? My guess $25k. Maybe $20k

GPS 175. Unit cost $5300. Installed in? $10k?

G5 unit cost $2600. Installed? $7500 (so our club mechanic says).

Either way at the end of the day what’s right is what your preference is.
Click to expand...
Well a G5 is going to go in regardless whether it's paired with a 175 or a 650, right? So let's concentrate on the $10k vs $20k-$25k. That's still a lot for just a NAV/COM.

BTW, to install a GNX375 was 26 hours, so $8k installed for a 175 seems a little more realistic.
 
Will Kumley said:
…So, suppose I get a plane with an old avionics panel and fairly basic steam guages, but I want it to be fully IFR capable...
Click to expand...
You can have a full ‘steam’ panel and still have a fully capable IFR platform with autopilot. More capable than some glass packages, honestly.
 
Please don't forget the 650/750 is from early 2011. The 175/355/375 family is new from 2019.

We think of the 650 as the "new one" and the 430 (1997) as the "old one", but in a product set that ages in dog-years, both are actually "old ones".

That eight-year difference may become significant from a product-obsolescence point of view sometime in the 2030s.
 
Rgbeard said:
Please don't forget the 650/750 is from early 2011. The 175/355/375 family is new from 2019.

We think of the 650 as the "new one" and the 430 (1997) as the "old one", but in a product set that ages in dog-years, both are actually "old ones".

That eight-year difference may become significant from a product-obsolescence point of view sometime in the 2030s.
Click to expand...
Ah, but the 650Xi/750Xi is from 2020. Garmin doesn't actually sell the non-Xi any more.
 
Rgbeard said:
No sarcasm: Do you believe the Xi is really much different, or is it a mild-refresh of the 2011 technology with only a faster processor chip and a new whizbang feature or two.
Click to expand...
Higher resolution screen and Smart Glide. But more importantly, it pushes forward the obsolescence timeline that you mentioned earlier.
 
The 650 to 650xi is sort of like the G5 to the 275.
 
asicer said:
Higher resolution screen and Smart Glide. But more importantly, it pushes forward the obsolescence timeline that you mentioned earlier.
Click to expand...
These devices are mostly defined by software. With a high-resolution touch screen and the faster processor (compared with the original 750/650) and the vastly more capable IO (compared with the GNS series), the door is wide open for future enhancements and changes. I believe Smart Glide is just the very beginning of that journey for the Xi series. So yes, I believe it is legitimate to look at the Xi as a next-generation device and not just a technology refresh.

- Martin
 
I am looking at a similar situation.

6 pack panel (With HSI). Stack has a non-WAAS 530, King Nav/Com, and audio panel, Garmin 335 ADBS Tranponder, and some other stuff.

Basic requirement would be to swap in a 530W for WAAS capability. Next step up would be to jump to a 750Xi to drive future upgrades.

Or would the better money be to do the 530W, and put in a G3X/G5 with the 530W and do the 750 later?

Or, bite the bullet and do the 750, plus G3X/G5 and possibly 345 audio panel. And maybe even a 225 Nav/Com?

Ultimate, which it out of my budget, would be to add a 650 to the last setup.

Thoughts?
 
Assuming you're keeping this plane for a while, M2C....

1) Start with what you need and can afford
2) Add things in a scalable way

For me, priority would be
1) 750 xi (pull the 530 non Wass and use it for a door stop. There is no future in putting any money into it)
2) If you can't afford the 750xi, or if it's too big, do the 650 xi
3) ADSB In - replace the transponder with a 345 You'll need it to display traffic on the 750 xi
4) Audio Panel
5) Radios
6) Then decide if you want several 275's or a G3 (would skip the G5's)
 
Pinecone said:
Or, bite the bullet and do the 750, plus G3X/G5 and possibly 345 audio panel. And maybe even a 225 Nav/Com?

Ultimate, which it out of my budget, would be to add a 650 to the last setup.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

If your “bite the bullet” is to get the G3X do you need the extra real estate of the 750XI? If you have the money, why not start with the G3X and a 650XI. Then 3,4, and 5 from WDD’s post above as you have the funds. Add a second 7” G3X screen to the list if the 10” doesn’t seem like enough after you try it out.
 
Pinecone said:
I am looking at a similar situation.

6 pack panel (With HSI). Stack has a non-WAAS 530, King Nav/Com, and audio panel, Garmin 335 ADBS Tranponder, and some other stuff.

Basic requirement would be to swap in a 530W for WAAS capability. Next step up would be to jump to a 750Xi to drive future upgrades.

Or would the better money be to do the 530W, and put in a G3X/G5 with the 530W and do the 750 later?

Or, bite the bullet and do the 750, plus G3X/G5 and possibly 345 audio panel. And maybe even a 225 Nav/Com?

Ultimate, which it out of my budget, would be to add a 650 to the last setup.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Have you considered sliding in an IFD550?
(Might also need an antenna/cabling upgrade along that route)
 
For the navigator, I'd go with the larger version rather than their smaller siblings for anyone who regularly flies IFR. That's true for the GTNs and the IFDs alike. One large unit is better than two small ones, from my experience. The small screens just leave too much to be desired - data entry is a pain in the behind (with the keyboard spread out over multiple pages), reviewing a flight plan with more than two waypoints is difficult, and the tiny map is not all that great. Personally, if panel space is tight I'd rather have a smaller PFD (Aspen, G5, GI-275, etc.) and leave room for a large GPS, instead of a G3X.

- Martin
 
You could use the PFD/MFD split on the the G3X and have a larger map display than the 750. The 650 is still large enough for a 1 page querty keyboard, 355 and 375 not so much. Review of the flight plan can be done on the G3X as well as entering some flight plan changes. Flight plan changes can also be made on an IPad. Good to have options.
 
@Will Kumley

Since you're on the eternal quest for the world's cheapest IFR airplane, you're going to need to be happy with lots of discrete components ("steam") and a pair of VORs for your initial. Let the money build for a $10-15k investment in an IFR GPS at some point, when the budget affords, and bring the plane partially to the 21st century.

Finding a worthy candidate should be your focus, in my opinion. Commonly known as "good bones", for a sound airframe, and decent-ish engine.
 
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