Avidyne IFD gap in route

[MichaelRuiz]

IFR student here and looking to see how any of you would handle a gap in route on your IFD (440 in my case). Flight plan is KLGC -> KRYY and I want to use the DIFFI arrival starting at LGC and then any approach to KRYY (let's try RNAV 9). I enter KLGC -> LGC -> KRYY, add the DIFFI arrival, and then the RNAV 9 approach starting at UPHAH as the IAF. Then there is the gap in route between the end of the arrival and the start of the approach.

I've tried changing to other approaches and the gap won't go away. How would you handle this? Leave it there and then hit direct after DIFFI? Or is there a tidy way to close the gap. I've also tried entering waypoints to force it, but didn't work.

 

[szwinger]

FROM:
https://pilotsupport.avidyne.com/kb/article/542-Approach-Procedures/

TIPS AND TECHNIQUES

Discontinuities During Approaches Before you insert an approach at an airport, the FMS is being told to fly a leg directly to the airport (i.e. the reference point) and the legs on the map reflect that. However, when you insert an approach, the FMS is being told to fly the legs of the approach to the airport (actually to the runway) and not fly a leg to the airport reference point. After the approach has been entered, you'll notice a "discontinuity" before the first leg of the approach. A discontinuity is an indication that the FMS doesn't know how to get from the leg before the discontinuity to the leg after. In other words, there's a gap in the flight plan. The gap can be closed via a number of means to include using the L4 LSK hook, activating a leg of the approach, or Direct-To the leg to the FAF. Verify the system will do as you expect by examining the depiction on the map.

I also thought you could highlight the gap in the flight plan and press clear but might be mistaken.

 

[MichaelRuiz]

Good article, but I'm trying to connect the arrival to the approach. Also, highlighting the gap gives no option to clear. Weird.

 

[szwinger]

Good article, but I'm trying to connect the arrival to the approach. Also, highlighting the gap gives no option to clear. Weird.

Can you hit the CLR Line Select Key? I thought I could do that but it's been a while so I don't trust my memory.

 

[MichaelRuiz]

No, there's no CLR option. Also, I think I see what's going on. Looking closer at the arrival description, it states expect radar vectors after reaching DIFFI. I guess just expect the gap? arg.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

If you look at the DIFFI4 arrival, you’re gonna get radar vectors. That’s probably why you’re unable to connect the end of the arrival to the RNAV9 approach and the “gap” remains. Just fly the gap with ATC instructions after DIFFI (radar vectors) and when given the approach fix to fly to, select it and Direct Enter Enter.

Stupid GPS is smarter than me...

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Theres a good video out there on why you don’t want to always delete the gap. That could get you in trouble. Sometimes you’ll be given the option to connect waypoints. It’ll click for you soon. Enjoy the hood/foggles!!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Good article, but I'm trying to connect the arrival to the approach. Also, highlighting the gap gives no option to clear. Weird.

It doesn't?

 

[MichaelRuiz]

Hey, how'd you do that? I'm on the IFD Trainer v10.3 on my iPad and set to IFD440 mode, but cannot connect them.

 

[Hang 4]

Not an expert, but I've flown arrivals into RYY. Those arrivals serve multiple airports, so you are very likely to get vectors off the arrival to get to the approach. I'd consider that gap a feature, not problem. Most of the time I've come in on WRGNS arrival that goes around Atlanta to the east and I'm on vectors long before getting anywhere near an approach.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hey, how'd you do that? I'm on the IFD Trainer v10.3 on my iPad and set to IFD440 mode, but cannot connect them.

Hmmm. I don't see it on the iPad app either (I did it on the old PC version). Could be a bug in the app.

I don't agree with those who say not being able to connect the final waypoint of a STAR and the IAF of an approach is a "feature." Sure, there are always reasons to not clear the gap but that's hardly a reason to prevent clearing the gap if say, get an instruction to cross DIFFI and proceed direct UPHAH.

BTW, I'm actually seeing that in other situations - unable to clear the gap between the last fix on a STAR and the IAF of an approach. I wonder whether it's the trainer or it does the same in the real unit.

 

[MichaelRuiz]

I'll try on my real unit this weekend and report back.

 

[szwinger]

Hmmm. I don't see it on the iPad app either (I did it on the old PC version). Could be a bug in the app.

I don't agree with those who say not being able to connect the final waypoint of a STAR and the IAF of an approach is a "feature." Sure, there are always reasons to not clear the gap but that's hardly a reason to prevent clearing the gap if say, get an instruction to cross DIFFI and proceed direct UPHAH.

BTW, I'm actually seeing that in other situations - unable to clear the gap between the last fix on a STAR and the IAF of an approach. I wonder whether it's the trainer or it does the same in the real unit.

This thread on the Avidyne site may apply:

http://forums.avidyne.com/unable-to-close-gap-in-route-arrival-and-app_topic2255.html

 

[noahfong]

STARs are not typically designed to seamlessly connect you to an approach. They can't because they will serve not only several approaches but commonly more than one airport. They are designed to get you into the vincinity where you will be vectored onto the appropriate approach. I haven't used the Avidyne, but your "box" knows this and places a "discontinuity" after the arrival to prompt you to "close" it, based on ATC instructions (you cannot reliably predict an approach before you get the ATIS). Once you load the approach, you can activate it with vectors or the assigned fix. If you choose to do an arrival (assuming your airplane is capable) expect to do some work.

 

[midlifeflyer]

STARs are not typically designed to seamlessly connect you to an approach. They can't because they will serve not only several approaches but commonly more than one airport. They are designed to get you into the vincinity where you will be vectored onto the appropriate approach. I haven't used the Avidyne, but your "box" knows this and places a "discontinuity" after the arrival to prompt you to "close" it, based on ATC instructions (you cannot reliably predict an approach before you get the ATIS). Once you load the approach, you can activate it with vectors or the assigned fix. If you choose to do an arrival (assuming your airplane is capable) expect to do some work.

Oh yeah, I know that. In the Garmins, for example, there is a discontinuity (although not highlighted by a "GAP" like the IFD). You have to tell it what to do after the last fix on the arrival.

Yet, the PC version of the trainer allowed me to connect the dots and create the course between the two, so it was available at some point. Maybe removed in an update or a bug in the trainer.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I'll try on my real unit this weekend and report back.

Please do. I had fired up my iPad trainer app to replicate and found the belligerent gap, then looked at the arrival procedure.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Oh yeah, I know that. In the Garmins, for example, there is a discontinuity (although not highlighted by a "GAP" like the IFD). You have to tell it what to do after the last fix on the arrival.

Actually, that's wrong. The Garmin units simply assume that when you load an arrival and an approach, you want to go to the IAF of the approach after the last fix of the STAR. No discontinuity at all.

I understand why Avidyne shows a discontinuity, but not why it would not allow the gap to be cleared.

If you choose to do an arrival (assuming your airplane is capable) expect to do some work.

I realized don't understand that. I've done arrivals followed by an approach. Not much work at all. A STAR is just a series of ATC instructions packaged. If ultimately vectored for the approach, it's just like vectors for an approach without a STAR. If given direct to the IAF, you go direct to the IAF. The fact you were on a STAR is irrelevant. The process is identical.

 

[noahfong]

I realized don't understand that. I've done arrivals followed by an approach. Not much work at all. A STAR is just a series of ATC instructions packaged. If ultimately vectored for the approach, it's just like vectors for an approach without a STAR. If given direct to the IAF, you go direct to the IAF. The fact you were on a STAR is irrelevant. The process is identical.

Well....call it what you will. But, chances are, you'll have to do something.

 

[noahfong]

Oh yeah, I know that. ...

Of course. Just didn't seem like the OP knew it...that's all.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Well....call it what you will. But, chances are, you'll have to do something.

Of course. You always have to do something, even if it's just adjust the power (unless, I guess, you have auto-throttles which will target specific airspeeds).

I thought you were saying with a STAR/IAP transition you'd have to do something you wouldn't otherwise be doing (other than loading them). Sorry.

 

[oskrypuch]

Gaps and their logic are being updated in the upcoming 10.3.x release. The iOS trainer available now, already has the new code, so you can check it out there.

Lots of nice little improvements, there is a partial list on the Avidyne Live forums. Apparently they are into the documentation stage, so it should be "soon". (well aviation "soon")

* Orest

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Gaps and their logic are being updated in the upcoming 10.3.x release. The iOS trainer available now, already has the new code, so you can check it out there.

Lots of nice little improvements, there is a partial list on the Avidyne Live forums. Apparently they are into the documentation stage, so it should be "soon". (well aviation "soon")

* Orest

Is 10.3 an avionics shop update?

 

[oskrypuch]

Is 10.3 an avionics shop update?

Nothing has been announced, seeing as even a release date is not public. But, my guess would be YES.

* Orest

 

[aterpster]

Oh yeah, I know that. In the Garmins, for example, there is a discontinuity (although not highlighted by a "GAP" like the IFD). You have to tell it what to do after the last fix on the arrival.

Yet, the PC version of the trainer allowed me to connect the dots and create the course between the two, so it was available at some point. Maybe removed in an update or a bug in the trainer.

If you look at the DIFFI4 arrival, you’re gonna get radar vectors. That’s probably why you’re unable to connect the end of the arrival to the RNAV9 approach and the “gap” remains. Just fly the gap with ATC instructions after DIFFI (radar vectors) and when given the approach fix to fly to, select it and Direct Enter Enter.

Stupid GPS is smarter than me...

Naw. Not always vectors. Going into PDK DIFFI is a feeder fix on the RNAV Rwy 3R and RNAV Z Rwy 21L

 

[aterpster]

Actually, that's wrong. The Garmin units simply assume that when you load an arrival and an approach, you want to go to the IAF of the approach after the last fix of the STAR. No discontinuity at all.

I understand why Avidyne shows a discontinuity, but not why it would not allow the gap to be cleared.

I realized don't understand that. I've done arrivals followed by an approach. Not much work at all. A STAR is just a series of ATC instructions packaged. If ultimately vectored for the approach, it's just like vectors for an approach without a STAR. If given direct to the IAF, you go direct to the IAF. The fact you were on a STAR is irrelevant. The process is identical.

No gap or MANSEQ on the G-5000. When I loaded the route and the Runway 9 RNAV IAP, the G-5000 asked me whether I wanted to fly the HILPT at UPHAH, because the angle of intercept from DIFFI is acceptable for NoPT. I elected NoPT.

Another interesting question on this flight plan: is the ODP at KLGC diverse? (I don't believe it is in compliance with FAAO 8260.46G.)

 

[midlifeflyer]

No gap or MANSEQ on the G-5000. When I loaded the route and the Runway 9 RNAV IAP, the G-5000 asked me whether I wanted to fly the HILPT at UPHAH, because the angle of intercept from DIFFI is acceptable for NoPT. I elected NoPT.

I don't think Garmins do "Gaps." Its an Avidyne feature alerting the user there is a discontinuity in the route. Many times its something very minor. Other times it's significant. Simple example of a minor one. I'll use one near me but you can use any.

Flight Plan: KTTA to KGSO via LIB VOR. Standard clearance in our area. Load the KGSO RNAV 5R with the FINIR transition. In the picture, FINIR is where I placed the circle, but the only point is that FINIR is not on the LIB-KGSO route.



Garmin doesn't care. Sure the approach is off route. Duh! That happens all the time. So what? When you are ready to tell it to go to a fix on the approach or activate a leg of the approach or switch to VTF, you'll tell it.

OTOH, the IFD FMS affirmatively tells you that the waypoints of the approach don't connect with the active route sequence. Just a different presentation.



On this one, I would not clear the gap because clearing it will automatically sequence me from LIB to FINIR. I guarantee turning left toward FINIR rather than right toward KGSO would not please ATC while my cleared route was still LIB-KGSO!

 

[oskrypuch]

Gaps (discontinuties) are a normal and necessary staple in the logic of flight management systems (FMS) in larger aircraft that use the concept of a continuous flight plan. Avidyne brings that construct to the small cockpit. The Apollo CNX-80 was the first and only other to do that, in this niche.

One of several big reasons I was sold on it initially.

* Orest

 

[aterpster]

Gaps (discontinuties) are a normal and necessary staple in the logic of flight management systems (FMS) in larger aircraft that use the concept of a continuous flight plan. Avidyne brings that construct to the small cockpit. The Apollo CNX-80 was the first and only other to do that, in this niche.

One of several big reasons I was sold on it initially.

* Orest

The 767 would display "route discontinuity."

 

[Piper18O]

When I first installed my Avidyne, flight plans that had a gap because of an approach bothered me. The more I flew it, the more I realized how unnecessary my concerns were. If your plan was to fly direct to the airport and then shoot the approach, you would know that you will most likely transition to the IAF or vectors before you actually get to the airport. Whether you load the approach first or even during the flight, the transition is as simple as to touch the IAF for the approach and hit the direct button. The IFD automatically sequences everything for the approach. Vectors to final is the same except you will be flying the heading until you intercept the final course. It is literally a couple of button pushes and the gap is behind you. I really like my Avidyne and the FMS concept now that I understand it. It just took a couple of practice flights to change my way of thinking. If you really don't want the gap, you just have to put the IAF for the approach in your flight plan from the start. Either way, it is pretty simple, once you understand the FMS concept, and the IFD 100 app that syncs with the unit really makes the flexibility of the system even easier, especially in turbulence.

 

[midlifeflyer]

When I first installed my Avidyne, flight plans that had a gap because of an approach bothered me.

As you discovered, it was just the usual, "This is different; therefore I don't like it" knee-jerk reaction.

When I did my COVID Garmin/Avidyne comparison videos I tried to be very careful not to call one way "better" than the other.

 

[Piper18O]

As you discovered, it was just the usual, "This is different; therefore I don't like it" knee-jerk reaction.

When I did my COVID Garmin/Avidyne comparison videos I tried to be very careful not to call one way "better" than the other.

I actually had never used any IFR GPS before settling on the IFD. I chose Avidyne because I like the concept of competition, and also the Avidyne folks bent over backwards to offer assistance and provide any information I might possibly want. Their customer service after the sale has really been phenomenal as well. Garmin's attitude was more of "We are the major player in GPS aviation, enough said." Their point was valid, but I also remember when King was "king" before Garmin eventually wrestled that title from them in most people's eyes. Hungry new companies do come along, and with the right direction, after a period of time can replace the old guard.

Regardless, my philosophy was that as long as it was a quality product, you could get used to whatever you bought. You just had to learn it.

By the way, I have watched some of your videos, and they are very good.

 

[oskrypuch]

..... videos I tried to be very careful not to call one way "better" than the other.

Just subscribed your channel, looks like it might be some interesting viewing.

* Orest

 

[midlifeflyer]

By the way, I have watched some of your videos, and they are very good.

Just subscribed your channel, looks like it might be some interesting viewing

Thank you. Don't expect that much. The three Garmin/Avidyne videos were literally a combination of teaching myself the IFD and something to do during lockdown. Most of the other short "how to's" were trying to answer a question someone asked me. With a few exceptions, most of my inflight videoing is just for me (I wouldn't want anyone else to see that mess!) and if I toss a segment up on YouTube, it's because I thought something interesting happened.

 

[MichaelRuiz]

As suspected, the gap was there on the real unit. Not a problem to handle the discontinuity by just directing it to the next point. I just wanted to make sure I was learning this correctly. Thanks everyone for the input.