Aviation is my religion - you?

[denverpilot]

In practice, the "we use our discretion" for the no politics or religion rule, means it becomes active only if you have a strong or unpopular opinion.

The more people who whine about your opinion, the more likely you'll be shown the door.

Which is why you don't see anyone espousing any strong religious beliefs in this thread. That would bring out the whiners and the MC would whack you.

As long as you're complexly milquetoast on any topic outside of aviation, they'll leave you alone. That's the image the site wants. It doesn't want discussion beyond the Cliffs Notes of life. Yay mediocrity.

 

[Everskyward]

As long as you're complexly milquetoast on any topic outside of aviation, they'll leave you alone.

Yup. We want to keep this site from becoming the comments section of almost every news source out there. There are plenty of other places to go for nasty political and religious arguments.

 

[RotorDude]

That's a common perspective but it needs to correspond to reality. Otherwise, it's delusional.

Some would argue that organized religion is, to a large extent, delusional.
I think flying (and more specifically soaring) is the closest I personally could ever get to a "spiritual" experience without drugs.

 

[write-stuff]

Any religion should provide the framework for answering three main questions. Where do we come from? What is our purpose/why are we here? And, what happens after we leave this life?

In that case, they all fail.

 

[Cooter]

Some would argue that organized religion is, to a large extent, delusional.
I think flying (and more specifically soaring) is the closest I personally could ever get to a "spiritual" experience without drugs.

There's someone who will argue almost any point. The fact that someone argues for a position isn't evidence either way, it's what comprises the argument that will determine it's correlation to reality. The test is to examine how a particular belief answers the whole of life's questions. In this particular instance, flying may provide a measure of satisfaction and prove beneficial in a number of ways but that doesn't mean that it provides the framework for how to view ones life or how to handle life's challenges. Re-read my response to Cajun and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Ravioli]

According to Wikipedia:
/Start
Religion is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, world views, sacred texts, holy places, ethics, and societal organisation that relate humanity to what an anthropologist has called "an order of existence".[1] Different religions may or may not contain various elements, ranging from the "divine",[2] "sacred things",[3] "faith",[4] a "supernatural being or supernatural beings"[5] or "some sort of ultimacy and transcendence that will provide norms and power for the rest of life."[6]

Religious practices may include rituals, sermons, commemoration or veneration (of deities), sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trances, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture. Religions have sacred histories and narratives, which may be preserved in sacred scriptures, and symbols and holy places, that aim mostly to give a meaning to life. Religions may contain symbolic stories, which are sometimes said by followers to be true, that have the side purpose of explaining the origin of life, the Universe, and other things. Traditionally, faith, in addition to reason, has been considered a source of religious beliefs.[7] There are an estimated 10,000 distinct religions worldwide.[8] About 84% of the world's population is affiliated with one of the five largest religions, namely Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or forms of folk religion.[9]

With the onset of the modernisation of and the scientific revolution in the western world, some aspects of religion have cumulatively been criticized. The religiously unaffiliated demographic include those who do not identify with any particular religion, atheists and agnostics. While the religiously unaffiliated have grown globally, many of the religiously unaffiliated still have various religious beliefs.[10] About 16% of the world's population is religiously unaffiliated.[9]
/End

Nothing there describes our flying, which is more an affinity. (I would say obsession or addiction but those terms have negative connotations)

The expression "Flight Therapy" is used, just as people describe going to the driving range to hit some balls as therapy, but therapy and religion are wholly different concepts. And discussion of therapy is not forbidden by the ROCs.

 

[Cooter]

In that case, they all fail.

Edit: I've deleted my response as it was over-charged and escalated the tension in the discussion. I will simply reply that many religions provide answers to the questions you quoted. Whether the answers they provide are coherent and consistent is a different story. I believe only one can provide answers that correspond to reality.

 

[RotorDude]

There's someone who will argue almost any point. The fact that someone argues for a position isn't evidence either way, it's what comprises the argument that will determine it's correlation to reality. The test is to examine how a particular belief answers the whole of life's questions. In this particular instance, flying may provide a measure of satisfaction and prove beneficial in a number of ways but that doesn't mean that it provides the framework for how to view ones life or how to handle life's challenges. Re-read my response to Cajun and you'll see what I mean.

The first (intelligent) rule about religion is that there is no point arguing about it. The reason is that it conveys something different to each of us. Therefore, your criteria for "what's a religion" are exactly that, yours. And I can completely understand and accept that to you, organized religion does not seem delusional, and provides you with answers to your philosophical questions.

 

[eman1200]

This is the type of comment from the peanut gallery that offers nothing of substance and serves only to get the comments shut down, which I think is partially the intent. You've stated nothing more than your opinion. My opinion is that all but one fails. I can give reasons why, but then you need to defend your beliefs as well. We can offer them up for public consumption and let the masses decide. Or, would you rather the thread get locked after you get your jabs in?

I'm happy to engage to the extent the mods allow, but I'm not interested in rude insults. That type of behavior is usually borne of insecurity and tries to stifle discussion, not further it. Since this is probably close to getting closed, I welcome any PMs where I'll entertain any questions along these lines.

you're the only one in this thread that insulted anyone and you are completely intolerant of anyone's opinion other than your own.

 

[Cooter]

you're the only one in this thread that insulted anyone and you are completely intolerant of anyone's opinion other than your own.

How so? I intended to offer up some substance to the discussion. All opinions are welcome, and others are free to disagree and criticize my posts. If I've been rude or insulting, I'll apologize. That isn't my intent.

 

[Cooter]

The first (intelligent) rule about religion is that there is no point arguing about it. The reason is that it conveys something different to each of us. Therefore, your criteria for "what's a religion" are exactly that, yours. And I can completely understand and accept that to you, organized religion does not seem delusional, and provides you with answers to your philosophical questions.

I disagree with your first statement. I think there is much to be gained from this type of discussion. I think beliefs should be examined and tested, and done so in the pursuit of truth. Not to satisfy some emotional need. But, we'll let it go at that.

 

[RotorDude]

I disagree with your first statement. I think there is much to be gained from this type of discussion. I think beliefs should be examined and tested, and done so in the pursuit of truth. Not to satisfy some emotional need. But, we'll let it go at that.

One man's "truth" is another man's delusion. But per the #1 rule, I agree to let it go.

 

[Cooter]

One man's "truth" is another man's delusion. But per the #1 rule, I agree to let it go.

Ok, then I will gladly disregard your post as a delusion.

PM me if your up for a friendly debate, I'd like to challenge that statement further.

 

[denverpilot]

Yup. We want to keep this site from becoming the comments section of almost every news source out there. There are plenty of other places to go for nasty political and religious arguments.

Any "news" site with a comments section isn't a news site anymore, just like this isn't truly a discussion site for pilots anymore. This place is just guys arguing about FARs and AoA jokes now, everything else is off limits if you're not a card carrying member of the "Politically Correct Opinions Club".

I know a sentence I could type here about religion that would have this thread shut down instantly. It might even be my personal opinion about religion. But I wouldn't dare discuss it here. "We" doesn't want discussion about real life here.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Religion involves faith, which is the belief in the existence of that which you cannot empirically prove. Not sure there's much of that in flying, there's a reason for everything.

For those that consider it therapy, I can sign on to that. Flying shuts out all other cares and concerns, and puts me completely in the now.

 

[mscard88]

 

[whattauser]

When people make up their view of a Creator (or lack thereof) based upon the prevailing cultural wind or what is least convicting in the construct of their own failures, I have a hard time respecting the (uninformed) viewpoint. However, when one has done research and looked at a large amount of available evidence, even if they come to a different conclusion than mine, I respect that.

 

[hindsight2020]

When people make up their view of a Creator (or lack thereof) based upon the prevailing cultural wind or what is least convicting in the construct of their own failures, I have a hard time respecting the (uninformed) viewpoint. However, when one has done research and looked at a large amount of available evidence, even if they come to a different conclusion than mine, I respect that.

Evidence in Faith? Do you mean Faith by peer-review? Nooooo thanks. I'll take my "made up" interpretation of Essence over the manufactured consent of organized religion every day of the week and twice on Sunday (pun intended). "To each their own" serves me very well in spiritual life. And that includes Lycoming worship and Conti shunning, in order to keep this reply aviation related.

 

[whattauser]

Evidence in Faith? Do you mean Faith by peer-review? Nooooo thanks. I'll take my "made up" interpretation of Essence over the manufactured consent of organized religion every day of the week and twice on Sunday (pun intended). "To each their own" serves me very well in spiritual life. And that includes Lycoming worship and Conti shunning, in order to keep this reply aviation related.

Not really sure where you got the idea I was referring to my view of organized religion at all. If you're happy with your "made up" interpretation of Essence (not that I have any idea what interpretation you're referring to), I am happy for you, truly! If you think there is judgement in my post, that was not the intent.

 

[hindsight2020]

Not really sure where you got the idea I was referring to my view of organized religion at all. If you're happy with your "made up" interpretation of Essence (not that I have any idea what interpretation you're referring to), I am happy for you, truly! If you think there is judgement in my post, that was not the intent.

No worries, I misunderstood your post then.

 

[whattauser]

No worries, I misunderstood your post then.

Isn't it sooo much easier to have a conversation over steaks and beers?

These forums are great, though, even with the limitations.

 

[CRAFT]

Don't know that I would call flying a religion; but taking off on a smooth clear early morning flight with the sun rising above the horizon and the radio mostly quiet sure can be an inspirational event.

 

[denverpilot]

Isn't it sooo much easier to have a conversation over steaks and beers?

These forums are great, though, even with the limitations.

Answer to first question: Not always.
Response to second assertion: Not always.

 

[whattauser]

Answer to first question: Not always.
Response to second assertion: Not always.

Nothing is never always something.

 

[Cooter]

Evidence in Faith? Do you mean Faith by peer-review? Nooooo thanks. I'll take my "made up" interpretation of Essence over the manufactured consent of organized religion every day of the week and twice on Sunday (pun intended). "To each their own" serves me very well in spiritual life. And that includes Lycoming worship and Conti shunning, in order to keep this reply aviation related.

By Faith, doesn't mean without evidence. By Faith also does not necessarily mean "made-up". That has come about largely as a means to discredit religious perspectives. I'm not saying that's how you intended it, but that is how it is often used. Either way, it is a false charge.

 

[denverpilot]

Nothing is never always something.

Indeed.

 

[hindsight2020]

By Faith, doesn't mean without evidence. By Faith also does not necessarily mean "made-up". That has come about largely as a means to discredit religious perspectives. I'm not saying that's how you intended it, but that is how it is often used. Either way, it is a false charge.

Oh we're on the same page. I'm a spiritual person in private life; I'm not part of the demographic that seeks to accuse the faithful of basing their perspective on what the accuser considers delusions.

What the scope of my comment actually was limited to, was my assessment of organized religion as a socio-political man-made orthodoxy which presumes to appropriate ownership to the path of Spirituality in this life, for purposes of monetary profit and political crowd control. I reject that appropriation of Faith wholesale. The fact I don't find the presence of God in churches nor their orthodoxy as I came of age, doesn't make me an agnostic. That's the typical rebuke the orthodoxy has for people like me. But because you can't profit from my independence or socially control me by your rituals, my proverbial "Come to J-man" moment it's all of a sudden blasphemy? Meh.

That's what my comment was about; thence my rejection of the call for "Faith by peer review" as the litmus test to legitimacy in spiritual life. I don't find God in such petty and human constructs, never mind what humanity has done to each other in the name of such tribal memberships. Once again, rejecting the orthodoxy doesn't make me an agnostic. The irony is that such ecumenical perspective was the result of their own doing. I didn't come up with the term, they did (Catholicism in the case of my upbringing). They instilled the seed of that very inclusivity and open-mindedness, and when they realize it's not profitable to steer their sheep to self-discovery, it's heresy all of a sudden. So yeah, "to each their own" is a perfect canon in my spiritual life thank you very much.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

Don't know that I would call flying a religion; but taking off on a smooth clear early morning flight with the sun rising above the horizon and the radio mostly quiet sure can be an inspirational event.

I'm with you! When my inner chi is 1000 hours past TBO and sorely in need of a rebuild, a calm morning flight to breakfast somewhere just makes everything right.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm with you! When my inner chi is 1000 hours past TBO and sorely in need of a rebuild, a calm morning flight to breakfast somewhere just makes everything right.

My inner chi needs coffee before the key turns.

 

[write-stuff]

Edit: I've deleted my response as it was over-charged and escalated the tension in the discussion. I will simply reply that many religions provide answers to the questions you quoted. Whether the answers they provide are coherent and consistent is a different story. I believe only one can provide answers that correspond to reality.

Ok, I'll byte. Which one provides the correct answers? It appears to me that most provide conflicting, inconsistent, assertive, and mutually exclusive answers. And the adherents to each are equally convinced that their version is the only true version.

 

[mscard88]

Don't know that I would call flying a religion; but taking off on a smooth clear early morning flight with the sun rising above the horizon and the radio mostly quiet sure can be an inspirational event.

Flying for a regional we were often the first departure out, usually at O dark thirty. Climbing out on a clear, cold winter morning with the sun rising as you wrote was indeed wonderful.

 

[Cooter]

Ok, I'll byte. Which one provides the correct answers? It appears to me that most provide conflicting, inconsistent, assertive, and mutually exclusive answers. And the adherents to each are equally convinced that their version is the only true version.

It wasn't bait, but I'm happy to answer.....Christianity.
Eastern religions accept internal contradictions and tend to minimize the need to apply theological answers to life's questions. Atheism philosophically defeats itself. Agnosticism is philosophically tenable and practical to a degree, but it avoids the questions. I don't know enough to comment on the Pagan religions but I assume they could be categorized similarly to some of the Eastern ones. That leaves Islam, Judaism and Christianity. These seemingly provide a similar foundation and structure , but the similarities disappear on closer examination. Christianity opens itself to criticism by making exclusive, falsifiable, historical claims in a way none of the others do. That is a discussion in itself, but on a side note I just sat through a lecture on the current archaeological dig in the city Jericho. It's facinating that years ago there was criticism of the entire story being a myth. The excavations now not only confirm the city but also the story of the collapsed wall. I'm not interested in debating the finer points of this type of issue but the point is that Christianity makes claims that can be tested and examined as historical statements. Beyond that, I believe it completely and coherently answers the questions I initially posed. It speaks to the human condition and answers the questions of why things are the way they are. It provides the framework for a worldview that accommodates all challenges. Certainly not every question has been answered and there's not a comprehensive list you can reference to settle all of life's questions. But it does establish a basis for interpreting the data in a way no other religion or worldview does, in my experience. And my experience increasingly confirms this. One of the reasons I take issue with the jabs at faith and belief is that my experience is totally at odds with the aspersions most frequently cast. My faith exists precisely because I think and question that which I encounter, not in spite of those questions. My embrace of Christianity came about because I asked the questions, not because I avoided them. It was first and intellectual journey that only later became a spiritual conversion. The charge of weak and feeble thinking in Christianity is a mostly false charge that frequently comes from a fear of the truth. All that being said, I acknowledge the charges do have merit against a large segment of the faith community. Aldous Huxley said something to the effect of, "most of man's life is one prolonged effort to prevent oneself thinking". I have found that to be true both inside and outside of religion.

Now, having answered honestly I anticipate drawing the ire of the irreligious. As always PMs are open.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

As much as I "love" aviation.....I'll have no other Gods before me.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

So many have died over the centuries simply because their religious beliefs didn't agree with the contrarians who plunged swords into their chests. This is the true travesty.
What we need is a world where multiple gods exist in harmony, because we're all atheists in a way if we think our god is the only god, and deny the existence of other gods.

Live and let live, brother. That's my religion.

 

[Sundancer]

Doing some air work one day, and was doing a clearing turn every now and then; after 8 or 10 diffrent stalls, steep turns etc, I was about to turn left - clear voice said "go right". And I did, and a 172 climbed through under my left wing, maybe 20 feet of horizontal clearance between us. Might have been less. . .

Cognitive intuition? Unconcious recognition, of being in a practice area and not seeing another airplane for a while? Religious experience? Audio hallucination?

I ain't never had an etheral voice save me from a gruesome death in any other venue. . .so flying, while not exactly a stand alone religion for me, is pretty close to being a church, for my purposes.

 

[Twin_Flyer]

... If you want to talk religion or politics, I'll escort you out of my hangar and point you toward a group that will discuss anything once the beer is flowing! That doesn't mean I'm ignorant on religion or politics, it means I don't want your opinion or insight on either of them and I'm at the airport to enjoy flying activities...

, Pretty much the same here. It's personal you keep your beliefs and comments to yourself and I'll do the same... Peace, I'm out...

 

[Zeldman]

Doing some air work one day, and was doing a clearing turn every now and then; after 8 or 10 diffrent stalls, steep turns etc, I was about to turn left - clear voice said "go right". And I did, and a 172 climbed through under my left wing, maybe 20 feet of horizontal clearance between us. Might have been less. . .

Cognitive intuition? Unconcious recognition, of being in a practice area and not seeing another airplane for a while? Religious experience? Audio hallucination?

I ain't never had an etheral voice save me from a gruesome death in any other venue. . .so flying, while not exactly a stand alone religion for me, is pretty close to being a church, for my purposes.

I had a similar experience (not flying) where I heard a voice as clear as someone standing next to me. If I had not listened, I would not be here. Faith? Intuition? I never could explain it.

 

[mscard88]

Doing some air work one day, and was doing a clearing turn every now and then; after 8 or 10 diffrent stalls, steep turns etc, I was about to turn left - clear voice said "go right". And I did, and a 172 climbed through under my left wing, maybe 20 feet of horizontal clearance between us. Might have been less. . .

Cognitive intuition? Unconcious recognition, of being in a practice area and not seeing another airplane for a while? Religious experience? Audio hallucination?

I ain't never had an etheral voice save me from a gruesome death in any other venue. . .so flying, while not exactly a stand alone religion for me, is pretty close to being a church, for my purposes.

Had a similar as a young buck driving all night from NJ to AL. Was on I-85 in VA and I dozed off. Felt a hand on my hand and I opened my eyes, and there up ahead was a big Buck standing in my lane. Whoa, easily maneuvered around him. Makes a believer out of ya.

 

[Sundancer]

Yeah, it seems a not uncommon experience - I like to think it's divine, certain I don't know . . .but "There are more things in heaven and earth. . ."