So based on the research I've done so far, Mooney's are rising to the top of my list of planes I'm interested in. I'm curious to hear pros/cons, performance numbers for various engine configurations, usefull load numbers with full fuel, etc. Thanks guys.
Attn Mooney Owners...Advice Needed
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I owned a '74 C model (dirty wing variant)...flight planned for 135kt/9.1 gph. Could push it to 140 kt at 10-11 gph, but seldom did. Earlier clean wing versions were 5-8 kts faster. Useful was 950 lbs and payload was 630 lb.
Pros... the C, E, F are some of the most bang for the buck in GA.
Cons... watch for leaky tanks and corrosion in the steel structure.
The Johnson Bar versions are a less expensive in terms of routine maintenance, but make you work a bit more.
teethdoc
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Also check out www.mooneyspace.com for a lot of good info.
Yes, payload is full fuel. I could easily go full fuel and three average adults, or two adults, a kid and lots of bags.
Leaky tanks are pretty obvious. Corrosion in the tubular frame a little trickier. Betware...at least one Mooney shop has started doing a "test" that removes the lower attach bolt and runs a magnet into the tubular frame. If they pull out any rust filings they say it is unairworthy. Other shops disagree. I got burned on that one.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Mooneys are awesome airplanes... But do you know which Mooneys you're interested in? Generally, there are the short-body ones (M20C being the most popular), the medium-body ones (M20F and M20J are very popular), and the newer long-body ones. I've never even ridden in a short-body Mooney, but I've heard the back seats aren't really suitable for adults. I've flown an M20J and we had an adult in the back seat for an hour or hour and a half and he didn't complain... But he was also a big aviation enthusiast. The long-body Mooneys are quite roomy.
I'm the caretaker of a 1996 Ovation (M20R). The numbers everyone asks about: I get about 170 KTAS on 12 gph running at 64% power.
Generally, a flight in the Ovation goes like this: Everything firewalled for takeoff, fuel burn is at 25 gph. Gently pull back at 64 KIAS and it'll fly off at about 70. You'll quickly accelerate to an initial climb speed of 85 KIAS. Retract the gear and flaps, Vy is 105 KIAS. Above about 1000' AGL, accelerate to a cruise climb of 120 KIAS and you'll still be climbing 1000 fpm. Fuel burn in the climb will be down to 18gph or so by 8,000 feet. I run WOT and 2200 RPM leaned to about 25-50º LOP up there for the aforementioned 64% power at 12gph and 170 KTAS.
Getting this slick bird down on the ground is fun, too... A 500 fpm descent and 180 knots is about what I'll usually get, meaning about 6nm per 1000 feet of descent. I do actually calculate it based on headwind/tailwind component and usually add a bit of a cushion to allow for slowing down as well. So, on a normal day where I'm cruising at 8000 feet and field elevations are close to 1000, I'll start the descent around 45nm from the destination. I'll pull the throttle just slightly as I descend to maintain cruise power of about 23" MP. About 15-20 miles out, I'll pull it back to 20", 10-15 miles out back to 17", and 5-7 miles out back to 14" which is about as far as I can go without setting off the gear warning. Initially, I'll be at 160 KIAS in the descent, and by the time I'm at 14" MP I'll be at 145-150 KIAS. Vle/Vloe is 140 KIAS. If the 6nm/1000 feet descent gradient holds true, I should arrive at pattern altitude and make the power reduction to 14" at about the same time, and leveling off at TPA helps the plane begin to slow down more. I drop the gear at 135-140 KIAS, which quickly helps me slow down to Vfe (110 KIAS), and that's about where I'll be as I prepare to enter the pattern, at which point I'll also pull the power to 2000 RPM and push the prop and mixture forward. Initiating the descent from pattern altitude, I'll add the first notch of flaps (which pitches a Mooney DOWN, unlike most other airplanes) and pull the throttle back to 1500 RPM. Final notch of flaps on base, turn final. The final approach should be stabilized at 75 KIAS for a normal landing. Pull the power out, flare, touch down, pop the speed brakes out and hold the nose off and just let 'er roll. I try to use as little braking as possible - In many cases I'm landing the Mooney within a couple hundred pounds of its 3200-pound max landing weight, which is heavier than the 182 at max gross. So, I try to brake gently if needed - If I land on 15L at the home drome (4100' and just slightly uphill), I can use no brakes at all on the rollout, but I do use the whole runway to do that. With brakes, it's quite easy to land on half that if you want.
Full fuel payload is 495 pounds, but - With 89 gallons usable, I can take off, climb to altitude, fly for 6 more hours after that, and land with an hour reserve in the tanks. Because I rarely want to fly for that kind of time/distance and because the fuel at the home 'drome is expensive, I rarely start out with full fuel. For a trip with other people, a climb+3hr cruise+1hr reserve fuel load leaves me with 711 lbs of payload and about 530nm range. I've also done in-state flying with 4 good-sized adults. So, there's a lot of flexibility in terms of trading fuel for payload.
Pros: If you're tall, there's no plane more comfortable than a Mooney. They're insanely efficient at pretty fast speeds, which is great in these days of high fuel prices. They're pretty sporty to fly (Full aileron deflection is only 45º from center on the yoke). I really like the Mooney!
Cons: You'll have to constantly listen to other people repeat old wives' tales about how Mooneys are small and cramped inside (FWIW, I fit *much* better in a Mooney than I do in a Bonanza), how you can't land them on grass (you can), and quite a few others, none of which are true but people who have never flown a Mooney at all will swear that they are true!
Where are you located? There may be someone here who's willing to give you a ride in their Mooney if you're nearby...
And, for what it's worth, the one I'm flying right now is for sale. It belonged to my uncle, who passed away in February. He took excellent care of it, and I couldn't let such a nice plane rot away in a hangar, so I'm flying it, keeping it well-maintained, and working on selling it. I will be sad to see it go, though... It's a really nice bird!
I'm the caretaker of a 1996 Ovation (M20R). The numbers everyone asks about: I get about 170 KTAS on 12 gph running at 64% power.
Generally, a flight in the Ovation goes like this: Everything firewalled for takeoff, fuel burn is at 25 gph. Gently pull back at 64 KIAS and it'll fly off at about 70. You'll quickly accelerate to an initial climb speed of 85 KIAS. Retract the gear and flaps, Vy is 105 KIAS. Above about 1000' AGL, accelerate to a cruise climb of 120 KIAS and you'll still be climbing 1000 fpm. Fuel burn in the climb will be down to 18gph or so by 8,000 feet. I run WOT and 2200 RPM leaned to about 25-50º LOP up there for the aforementioned 64% power at 12gph and 170 KTAS.
Getting this slick bird down on the ground is fun, too... A 500 fpm descent and 180 knots is about what I'll usually get, meaning about 6nm per 1000 feet of descent. I do actually calculate it based on headwind/tailwind component and usually add a bit of a cushion to allow for slowing down as well. So, on a normal day where I'm cruising at 8000 feet and field elevations are close to 1000, I'll start the descent around 45nm from the destination. I'll pull the throttle just slightly as I descend to maintain cruise power of about 23" MP. About 15-20 miles out, I'll pull it back to 20", 10-15 miles out back to 17", and 5-7 miles out back to 14" which is about as far as I can go without setting off the gear warning. Initially, I'll be at 160 KIAS in the descent, and by the time I'm at 14" MP I'll be at 145-150 KIAS. Vle/Vloe is 140 KIAS. If the 6nm/1000 feet descent gradient holds true, I should arrive at pattern altitude and make the power reduction to 14" at about the same time, and leveling off at TPA helps the plane begin to slow down more. I drop the gear at 135-140 KIAS, which quickly helps me slow down to Vfe (110 KIAS), and that's about where I'll be as I prepare to enter the pattern, at which point I'll also pull the power to 2000 RPM and push the prop and mixture forward. Initiating the descent from pattern altitude, I'll add the first notch of flaps (which pitches a Mooney DOWN, unlike most other airplanes) and pull the throttle back to 1500 RPM. Final notch of flaps on base, turn final. The final approach should be stabilized at 75 KIAS for a normal landing. Pull the power out, flare, touch down, pop the speed brakes out and hold the nose off and just let 'er roll. I try to use as little braking as possible - In many cases I'm landing the Mooney within a couple hundred pounds of its 3200-pound max landing weight, which is heavier than the 182 at max gross. So, I try to brake gently if needed - If I land on 15L at the home drome (4100' and just slightly uphill), I can use no brakes at all on the rollout, but I do use the whole runway to do that. With brakes, it's quite easy to land on half that if you want.
Full fuel payload is 495 pounds, but - With 89 gallons usable, I can take off, climb to altitude, fly for 6 more hours after that, and land with an hour reserve in the tanks. Because I rarely want to fly for that kind of time/distance and because the fuel at the home 'drome is expensive, I rarely start out with full fuel. For a trip with other people, a climb+3hr cruise+1hr reserve fuel load leaves me with 711 lbs of payload and about 530nm range. I've also done in-state flying with 4 good-sized adults. So, there's a lot of flexibility in terms of trading fuel for payload.
Pros: If you're tall, there's no plane more comfortable than a Mooney. They're insanely efficient at pretty fast speeds, which is great in these days of high fuel prices. They're pretty sporty to fly (Full aileron deflection is only 45º from center on the yoke). I really like the Mooney!
Cons: You'll have to constantly listen to other people repeat old wives' tales about how Mooneys are small and cramped inside (FWIW, I fit *much* better in a Mooney than I do in a Bonanza), how you can't land them on grass (you can), and quite a few others, none of which are true but people who have never flown a Mooney at all will swear that they are true!
Where are you located? There may be someone here who's willing to give you a ride in their Mooney if you're nearby...
And, for what it's worth, the one I'm flying right now is for sale. It belonged to my uncle, who passed away in February. He took excellent care of it, and I couldn't let such a nice plane rot away in a hangar, so I'm flying it, keeping it well-maintained, and working on selling it. I will be sad to see it go, though... It's a really nice bird!
Throw me in the Mooneys are awesome camp. Watch out for leaky tanks as someone said earlier though
Very happy owner of an M20J
Very happy owner of an M20J
I flight plan at about 10gph and 160KTAS.
wabower
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so I'm flying it, keeping it well-maintained, and working on selling it. I will be sad to see it go, sometime after about five years or so, It's a really nice bird!
I feel your pain
I've had my 1984 M20J since 2004. I fly it well over 100 hours per year, mostly cross country and mostly IFR. I think they're great airplanes and have fit my missions very well.
An M20J carries 64 gallons of fuel. My payload with full fuel is about 560#.
Fuel flow is altitude dependent. I fly WOT, 2500rpm and LOP in cruise. If winds are ok, I'll cruise at 13,000' on O2 and burn about 8gph and get about 148kTAS. (No way I can get 160kTAS at 10gph at any altitude. A few may get this, but I think that would be an exceptional airframe and not the norm.)
I've flown with 4 full sizes adults for about 2 1/2 or 3 hours without a problem of comfort. You can't carry enough fuel to go any further with that load anyway. With full tanks a seven hour flight with reserves is doable. (Bring widemouth Gatorade bottles.)
There's an AD for corrosion inspection. It's easy enough to check if that's been done. Blue stains point to tank leakage issues.
Mooney owners, in general, are proud of their planes and cringe at the aforementioned OWTs. Most would be happy to let you see if you're comfortable sitting in theirs, and many would give you a ride.
An M20J carries 64 gallons of fuel. My payload with full fuel is about 560#.
Fuel flow is altitude dependent. I fly WOT, 2500rpm and LOP in cruise. If winds are ok, I'll cruise at 13,000' on O2 and burn about 8gph and get about 148kTAS. (No way I can get 160kTAS at 10gph at any altitude. A few may get this, but I think that would be an exceptional airframe and not the norm.)
I've flown with 4 full sizes adults for about 2 1/2 or 3 hours without a problem of comfort. You can't carry enough fuel to go any further with that load anyway. With full tanks a seven hour flight with reserves is doable. (Bring widemouth Gatorade bottles.)
There's an AD for corrosion inspection. It's easy enough to check if that's been done. Blue stains point to tank leakage issues.
Mooney owners, in general, are proud of their planes and cringe at the aforementioned OWTs. Most would be happy to let you see if you're comfortable sitting in theirs, and many would give you a ride.
Excellent info guys. Sounds like if I go the Mooney route, I'll want an F or J. I'm a fairly tall guy (6'1) and having the ability to fly 4 adults farily comfortably even if only for 2.5 hrs is a must according to the wife. She also wants the ability in the future to take the family (2 kids eventually) with us to visit family and be able to carry enough luggage for a weekend. Do you think that's doable in an F or J model? Also, do you think I'll be able to find a decent one for 45k? I might be able to go over that but based on hanger rental cost on top of monthly payment, I really don't want to go above 45k, and prefereably less.
Challenged
Pattern Altitude
I'm sure I could Google this, but do any Mooney's have a pilot side door?
denverpilot
Tied Down
Don't completely rule out the C,E until you've checked them out, if budgets are tight. I've flown short, 1 hours flights with two adults in the back seat and no one complained. I've flown longer three hour flights with one adult in the back and he had no complaints. They're nowhere near as bad as some would lead you to believe. But don't take my word for it. Find one, have someone sit up front with the front seat moved to a flying position (they'll slide all the way back to the front of the backseat leading you to believe at first glance there is no leg room....but you need that seat quite a ways forward to reach the pedals unless you're 6'6''!!)
One of my students just picked up a C last spring and has been flying the wings off it with his wife and two kids...the kids are in the 6-9 age range.
One of my students just picked up a C last spring and has been flying the wings off it with his wife and two kids...the kids are in the 6-9 age range.
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Nope.
gprellwitz
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Grant Prellwitz
Actually, all of them, if you're a CFI or otherwise like to fly from the right seat!
(I'm pretty sure they have brakes on the right as well as the left.) But, presuming Challenged meant on the left side of the plane, then no.Good point. I'm not going to rule them out until I see them in person. Budget wise it's looking like it'll be tough to find an F or J in the 45k or less range based on some quick browsing.
At that price range you will be looking at C or E models. 4 adults wont be comfortable for very long. Your kids will fit just fine. You can get a nice IFR C model in the 40's right now. Great bargain.
You may also find taking 4 adults anywhere on a ga schedule is harder than you or your wife expects. Finding 4 adults that can handle the possibility of last minute weather delays for 1-2 days is challenging, in my experience. They always need to be back by a certain time. YMMV.
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You may also find taking 4 adults anywhere on a ga schedule is harder than you or your wife expects. Finding 4 adults that can handle the possibility of last minute weather delays for 1-2 days is challenging, in my experience. They always need to be back by a certain time. YMMV.
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Good point on adult travel. I'm thinking it would be more for day trips somewhere just to fly and get some good food or whatever. If it was for more than that, it would be a situation where we're all off work for a week or something similar so there would be some flexibility. Carrying 2 other adults would definitely not be the norm.
Yep...but LOTS of well-equipped C's for that if you shop around.
Now that you mention it, we made a few two-couple day-trips for 1-2 hours for sightseeing and dinner outings. The ladies in the back never complained that I can remember.
My wife often sat in back so our son could sit up front with me, even when he as little (see my profile pic...that's in our C.) She never had a problem with being in back.
The C will do just fine for 4 adults for an hour. In that hour you will cover 140 nm. I've done it on sight seeing / house viewing flights. You just wouldn't want to try a 900 nm trip that way. People get too cramped in the back unless they are very small.
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Excellent. So far, the Mooney C models I think are towards the top of my list. Any serious Cons out there?? I know most of you guys are Mooney owners and are probably a little biased but I need to konw what to avoid or what to look for as well. This is the first time I've purchased a plane so I'm a Newb in all that.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Make sure you and your people fit. They're not the roomiest. I liked the C time in my log a lot, but I wouldn't subject good friends to that back seat for long.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Big handle between the seats for putting the landing gear down instead of a motor. Unlock it, swing it forward, lock it in the forward latch, gear is down.
Before you search too much find a qualified shop/mechanic to do the pre buy. An authorized Mooney Service Center would be your best bet. Properly done this will make sure all ADs are up to date, and all other high risk stuff will be checked. Make sure your purchase contract allows for renegotiation after the prebuy results are available up to and including walking away.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
This:
Also, be sure to join the Mooney Aircraft Pilots Association. They have an email list with some of the foremost Mooney experts as frequent participants.
The back seat is the biggest con. Some pilots love the Johnson bar. I have flown both and prefer the electric gear. The C has a carbureated engine that is known for making carb ice, but comes with carb heat. They came from the factory with awful shotgun panels, try to find one somebody has converted to a 6-pack. The plane also is slick and requires you to think ahead and nail your speeds, but the short bodies are better about that than the later models.
All the info you could want is over at Mooneyspace.com. We have a pretty good community over there.
My Mooney goes 950 nm on about $250 worth of gas. That is the really addictive part.
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All the info you could want is over at Mooneyspace.com. We have a pretty good community over there.
My Mooney goes 950 nm on about $250 worth of gas. That is the really addictive part.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
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Sleepingsquirrel
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Sleepingsquirrel
http://www.donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/Manual Gear Operation/LANDING_GEAR)OPERATION.HTM
Manual gear operation is quicker than 2 seconds, up or down. Much easier to do than read about.
I like my 1961 M20B . 50+ years old and flys like a teen-ager.
Manual gear operation is quicker than 2 seconds, up or down. Much easier to do than read about.
I like my 1961 M20B . 50+ years old and flys like a teen-ager.
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rowerwet
Filing Flight Plan
expect the maint. bills to be a little higher, the controls are all push pull rods, no cables, with about a million rod ends, each of which needs to be inspected and lubed at the annual insp. the electric gear may have issues with the motor mount on older aircraft, easy to check with the belly panel off, not as easy to fix. With the cowling off, look at the boxes on the fire wall where the rudder pedals are, if the top inner corners are bashed in, somebody who didn't know much about mooney's did some work on the engine. Also the cowling is a nightmare to get off for inspections or even simple jobs like changing an alternator, starter, or magneto take forever. I worked on one recently that the lower baffle was missing a lower brace, so it chafed on the alternator fan, until the fan exploded on take off, one fan blade shot across and punched a hole in the oil cooler. I've never seen this before, but it could easily happen if the lower cooling baffle is loose.
If you will be flying from a rougher airport or parking off the taxiway on grass be aware the prop is not very far from the ground, I did two engine changes on a 252 SE when the owner hit the drop at the edge of the tie down and nailed the prop, then his son did the same thing again. that was with a three blade prop, the two blade is slightly bigger.
If you will be flying from a rougher airport or parking off the taxiway on grass be aware the prop is not very far from the ground, I did two engine changes on a 252 SE when the owner hit the drop at the edge of the tie down and nailed the prop, then his son did the same thing again.
that was with a three blade prop, the two blade is slightly bigger.
wabower
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Actually, all of them, if you're a CFI or otherwise like to fly from the right seat!
Quite a few Mooneys didn't have right side brakes. My F didn't.
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Pilawt
Right side brakes were optional on older models.
BrianR
Pre-takeoff checklist
And apparently on some newer ones too. The '77 M20J I just started flying doesn''t have them.
With the Johnson Bar you eliminate some expense and service issues....
http://www.lorendjones.com/2001/07/30/mooney-m20c-gears/
The C cowl was a piece of cake. Two side panels could be popped off in a minute or less giving access to most of the engine. The top could be removed in another 2-3 minutes. Much easier than the split cowls on later Mooneys.
The split cowls aren't a big deal to remove. I can have both pieces off, working alone, in 5 minutes. Even easier with two people. And they are better aerodynamically.