ATP Requirements vs Cirrus Vision

[Sinistar]

While studying for the PPL written (King Schools) there is section regarding which aircraft require a ATP. They state that any aircraft over 12,500lbs (a DC-3 in their example) or any "Turbojet" requires a ATP.

So, does the Cirrus Vision require a ATP? That would sure seem like more than they would want that customer to have to deal with. If not, what makes it not match that requirement?

 

[mscard88]

A type rating in that jet would be required. An ATP would not be required.

 

[James_Dean]

While studying for the PPL written (King Schools) there is section regarding which aircraft require a ATP. They state that any aircraft over 12,500lbs (a DC-3 in their example) or any "Turbojet" requires a ATP.

So, does the Cirrus Vision require a ATP? That would sure seem like more than they would want that customer to have to deal with. If not, what makes it not match that requirement?

AFAIK, you need a type rating, but not an ATP.

 

[Sinistar]

Is that because its not a "Turbojet" or is there just some huge list of jets that need a ATP and those that don't? Or is it because they are not carrying passengers for hire?

 

[James_Dean]

Is that because its not a "Turbojet" or is there just some huge list of jets that need a ATP and those that don't? Or is it because they are not carrying passengers for hire?

I think we have some terms mixed up. ATP(Airline Transport Pilot) is a pilot rating referenced starting in CFR14 61.151. A type rating is required to fly a specific aircraft that is over 12,500 lbs or is turbojet powered and other requirements listed in CFR14 61.31. IOW, an ATP is the ultimate rating for a pilot, but does not grant you the ability to fly an aircraft that requires a type rating without receiving the proper training and checkride in that type or simulator. You can certainly get a type rating without getting your ATP.

 

[kayoh190]

No ATP required for Part 91 turbojet ops - just the type rating.

 

[GeorgeC]

Why is a type rating required for turbojet (and presumably turbofan) but not turboprop?

 

[iamtheari]

Why is a type rating required for turbojet (and presumably turbofan) but not turboprop?

I wonder the same thing. Was it a compromise to appease manufacturers so that rich private pilots can fly a TBM or Meridian without a type rating, or was it due to the speed and altitude capabilities of a turbojet above those of a light turboprop? (The latter is suspect given that a TBM 850 can apparently fly faster and higher than an SF-50.) I strongly suspect that a plane with a single jet engine is easier to fly than one with a huge propeller being spun by a 1200-horsepower turbine due to torque and other left-turning tendencies, yet one of these only requires an ASEL rating with proper endorsements while the other one requires its own type certificate.

 

[olasek]

I think it could be a matter of semantics, though FAA may not require a type rating to fly say a Piper M600 turboprop, the insurance company's requirements would put you through such a grinder to fly this aircraft - it would feel (at least by your pocket book) like a type rating.

 

[mscard88]

It is required for TPs too.

Why is a type rating required for turbojet (and presumably turbofan) but not turboprop?

It is required if a TP is over 12,500 lbs. see James_Dean's post above. For instance, a King Air 200 doesn't require a type rating but a KA 350 does 'cause it's over 12,5.

I have type ratings in the Embraer Brasilia and ATR 42 and 72 in addition to the CRJ 200/700/900 series.

 

[iamtheari]

I think we have some terms mixed up. ATP(Airline Transport Pilot) is a pilot rating referenced starting in CFR14 61.151. A type rating is required to fly a specific aircraft that is over 12,500 lbs or is turbojet powered and other requirements listed in CFR14 61.31. IOW, an ATP is the ultimate rating for a pilot, but does not grant you the ability to fly an aircraft that requires a type rating without receiving the proper training and checkride in that type or simulator. You can certainly get a type rating without getting your ATP.

Here's how I suggest the OP keep them straight:

Your certificate is sport, recreational, private, commercial, or ATP, and it governs which operations you can conduct.

Your certificate has ratings attached to it that govern which aircraft you can conduct those operations in (by category and class and, for aircraft that require a type rating, by type).

The only exception I can think of is the instrument rating, which is a rating that governs the operations you can conduct.

 

[MassPilot]

There is no plane out there that requires you to hold an ATP rating in order to fly it and any plane out there can be legally flown with just a Private Pilot cert and a type rating if applicable. You only legally need an ATP rating to fly for an air carrier operation. That said, type rating checkrides are flown to ATP standards so you need to be able to hold altitude to +/- 25 feet and such during that checkride.

 

[MassPilot]

I wonder the same thing. Was it a compromise to appease manufacturers so that rich private pilots can fly a TBM or Meridian without a type rating, or was it due to the speed and altitude capabilities of a turbojet above those of a light turboprop? (The latter is suspect given that a TBM 850 can apparently fly faster and higher than an SF-50.) I strongly suspect that a plane with a single jet engine is easier to fly than one with a huge propeller being spun by a 1200-horsepower turbine due to torque and other left-turning tendencies, yet one of these only requires an ASEL rating with proper endorsements while the other one requires its own type certificate.

I have the impression that until the SF50 came along, every jet out there required more skill to fly than a TBM or Meridian. The SF50 is a game changer in this regard. Maybe my impression is wrong.

 

[Velocity173]

It is required for TPs too.


It is required if a TP is over 12,500 lbs. see James_Dean's post above. For instance, a King Air 200 doesn't require a type rating but a KA 350 does 'cause it's over 12,5.

I have type ratings in the Embraer Brasilia and ATR 42 and 72 in addition to the CRJ 200/700/900 series.

Yep. Just so happens my S70 type showed up in the mail today. Only took me 16 years to get around and apply for it.

 

[flyingron]

ATP is NOT a rating. ATP is a type of pilot CERTIFICATE.

Airplane Multie Engine Land and all the jet type ratings are RATINGS on pilot certificates. They can be had on even lowly private certificates.

​

 

[kayoh190]

I have the impression that until the SF50 came along, every jet out there required more skill to fly than a TBM or Meridian.

Not every jet - I've found that the straight wing Citations are just as easy (if not easier) to fly than your typical turboprop. When you start getting to this level, it's not so much about the flying of the airplane - it's about knowing and managing the systems if/when things go wrong, and now that you're in a piece of equipment that can fly in all but the very worst of the weather - handling the additional ADM scenarios you'll find yourself in.

 

[RyanB]

I have the impression that until the SF50 came along, every jet out there required more skill to fly than a TBM or Meridian. The SF50 is a game changer in this regard. Maybe my impression is wrong.

Friend of mine who has been flying KA 90's & 200's prefers to fly the Citation jets due to the fact that there's no props to deal with.

 

[GeorgeC]

For instance, a King Air 200 doesn't require a type rating but a KA 350 does 'cause it's over 12.5.

Right, but why does, say, a Meridian not require a type rating but a SF50 does? Similar speeds, ceilings, and weights.

 

[mscard88]

Right, but why does, say, a Meridian not require a type rating but a SF50 does? Similar speeds, ceilings, and weights.

Not familiar w/ the Meridian (seen em) but I would guess because it weighs less than 12,500.

Here's an article about checking out in one:

http://www.flyingmag.com/making-meridian-transition-simcom

 

[Kritchlow]

Right, but why does, say, a Meridian not require a type rating but a SF50 does? Similar speeds, ceilings, and weights.

I think they just have to draw the line somewhere. It's my belief that they figure over 12.5 or jet, the systems start getting more complex and warrant extra training.

 

[jordane93]

The chief pilot at my flight school acts as a safety pilot/works the radios for a guy who owns a Citation Mustang. All he has is his Private multi (and instrument). He's upgrading to a CJ3 in a few weeks.

 

[James_Dean]

Not every jet - I've found that the straight wing Citations are just as easy (if not easier) to fly than your typical turboprop. When you start getting to this level, it's not so much about the flying of the airplane - it's about knowing and managing the systems if/when things go wrong, and now that you're in a piece of equipment that can fly in all but the very worst of the weather - handling the additional ADM scenarios you'll find yourself in.

My only disagreement to this from my experience as PIC in a turboprop and as a passenger/right seat in a jet is the energy management and landing distances. I can horse around my two huge four bladed props and slow down in ways that just aren't there in most jets and I can easily stop in places I can't get out of.

 

[kayoh190]

My only disagreement to this from my experience as PIC in a turboprop and as a passenger/right seat in a jet is the energy management and landing distances. I can horse around my two huge four bladed props and slow down in ways that just aren't there in most jets and I can easily stop in places I can't get out of.

That's certainly true. It's amazing some of the things you can get away with in a turboprop! The capabilities are pretty impressive.

 

[MassPilot]

Not familiar w/ the Meridian (seen em) but I would guess because it weighs less than 12,500.

It does, but all turbojets require a type rating regardless of gross weight as oppose to propeller aircraft that generally only require one if max gross is above 12,500. An SF50 has a max gross of 6000 lbs, but it requires a type rating because it is turbojet powered. A KA250 can weight twice as much yet it does not require a type rating.

 

[Sinistar]

Wow, I screwed that up then! I definitely confused ATP with Type Rating. My bad.

So, if I understand this correctly, someone who buys a Cirrus Vision jet would need a type rating and on the back of their certificate it would then state that specific type rating?

And to take that farther, a turbo prop (ie TBM 930) may not require one as its a Turboprop (not Turbojet) and it weighs less than 12,500lbs.

I think I get it now.

 

[James_Dean]

That's certainly true. It's amazing some of the things you can get away with in a turboprop! The capabilities are pretty impressive.

I'm might catch hell for this, but....

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N425XP/history/20170912/1200Z/KSPW/KCMH/tracklog

I was slowing for a normal approach to landing and was asked for max forward speed until a five mile final. Roger, wilco. Pushed the power back up and was doing 230 kias, which is my barber pole, until five miles, pulled the throttles to the stops, slowed to 175 for props, gear and first flaps, pushed the power back up a bit to arrest the speed decline and had a normal landing after a stable two mile final.

 

[Sinistar]

There is no plane out there that requires you to hold an ATP rating in order to fly it and any plane out there can be legally flown with just a Private Pilot cert and a type rating if applicable. You only legally need an ATP rating to fly for an air carrier operation. That said, type rating checkrides are flown to ATP standards so you need to be able to hold altitude to +/- 25 feet and such during that checkride.

So, from this someone purchasing a Cirrus Vision will be held to ATP standards during their checkride?

And, if someone were to use the Vision for business to haul people around for hire then they would need to be a ATP?

 

[mscard88]

It does, but all turbojets require a type rating regardless of gross weight as oppose to propeller aircraft that generally only require one if max gross is above 12,500. An SF50 has a max gross of 6000 lbs, but it requires a type rating because it is turbojet powered. A KA250 can weight twice as much yet it does not require a type rating.

Oh it's a jet. Didn't know that. Thought it was a TP.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

So, from this someone purchasing a Cirrus Vision will be held to ATP standards during their checkride?

And, if someone were to use the Vision for business to haul people around for hire then they would need to be a ATP?

Type rating checkrides are performed to atp standards.

Passenger hauling for hire in a jet requires atp for the PIC.

The type ratings are listed with the applicable category and class on the back of your certificate.


I will add that like most things in life there are exceptions. I have flown one airplane that was over 12.5k gross and didn't require a type rating because it was waivered by faa. Air tractor 802 but it's a single seat restricted use certification aircraft.

 

[Sinistar]

Thank you for all the clarifications! I surely had this all mixed up.

At the same time, it just seems like the marketing for the Cirrus Vision is inferring the handling, ergonomics, etc will make it easier for a SR22 pilot to transition too (and maybe true). But now a Type Rating and its associated higher standards will be required as well given the checkride requirements...you would think that would be a big deal for them. Unless of course the multi-million dollar price tag includes enough training to get them past that checkride.

 

[iamtheari]

Thank you for all the clarifications! I surely had this all mixed up.

At the same time, it just seems like the marketing for the Cirrus Vision is inferring the handling, ergonomics, etc will make it easier for a SR22 pilot to transition too (and maybe true). But now a Type Rating and its associated higher standards will be required as well given the checkride requirements...you would think that would be a big deal for them. Unless of course the multi-million dollar price tag includes enough training to get them past that checkride.

Cirrus has a training center and they say their goal is to get you the type rating before you take delivery of the plane, so the stress of training and the excitement of having a shiny new Vision jet in your hangar are separate. Their marketing that I found did not say if the purchase price included the training or not, but either way it's a drop in the bucket at that point. They get you a ton of simulator time, probably some time in an actual plane, and then a mentor pilot while you get adjusted to flying the jet in your actual missions. Cirrus figured out a few years back that top-notch training in their planes is the key to a good safety record.

 

[flyingron]

I suspect the scope of the type rating is likely about the same as what the insurance companies are going to want for initial training anyhow. Some of the other VLJs do about eight hours I think.

 

[Sinistar]

Yeah, up in that league the training time and insurance costs are probably just noise anyway.

Cirrus does seem to be stepping up their training lately. I'm sure for this jet they are gonna want zero bad news for as long as possible.

 

[Plano Pilot]

There is no plane out there that requires you to hold an ATP rating in order to fly it and any plane out there can be legally flown with just a Private Pilot cert and a type rating if applicable. You only legally need an ATP rating to fly for an air carrier operation. That said, type rating checkrides are flown to ATP standards so you need to be able to hold altitude to +/- 25 feet and such during that checkride.

100 Feet not 25.

 

[jordane93]

I'm might catch hell for this, but....

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N425XP/history/20170912/1200Z/KSPW/KCMH/tracklog

I was slowing for a normal approach to landing and was asked for max forward speed until a five mile final. Roger, wilco. Pushed the power back up and was doing 230 kias, which is my barber pole, until five miles, pulled the throttles to the stops, slowed to 175 for props, gear and first flaps, pushed the power back up a bit to arrest the speed decline and had a normal landing after a stable two mile final.

That's what all the former Colgan guys tell me about the Saab and Dash. Approach loved it because they could do 250 until the maker and still meet the stabilized approach criteria by 1000ft.

 

[champ driver]

The FAA had to define the distinction between what aircraft required a Type rating or not decades ago. They drew up the rules long before anyone even imagined TBM's, Meridians and CJ's and VLJ's.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

100 Feet not 25.

Just posting this for anyone that wants to read up on the standards.

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_standards/media/atp_pts.pdf

 

[iamtheari]

I'm might catch hell for this, but....

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N425XP/history/20170912/1200Z/KSPW/KCMH/tracklog

I was slowing for a normal approach to landing and was asked for max forward speed until a five mile final. Roger, wilco. Pushed the power back up and was doing 230 kias, which is my barber pole, until five miles, pulled the throttles to the stops, slowed to 175 for props, gear and first flaps, pushed the power back up a bit to arrest the speed decline and had a normal landing after a stable two mile final.

Here's a question for you. If the Conquest required a type rating (or if some other plane did not require one), would it have made any difference for your decision to purchase, training path by way of the 310, etc.?

 

[MauleSkinner]

[QUOTE="Tarheelpilot]Passenger hauling for hire in a jet requires atp for the PIC.[/QUOTE]
Almost.

Flown with passengers for hire under Part 121, 135, 91K, etc, requires an ATP. A company-owned jet flown for hire under plain jane Part 91 still only requires a commercial.

 

[James_Dean]

Here's a question for you. If the Conquest required a type rating (or if some other plane did not require one), would it have made any difference for your decision to purchase, training path by way of the 310, etc.?

Probably not. I've done three day sim school twice for the Conquest and the type rating for a 525 is 3-5 days. I'm comfortable that I could get a type and fly the ride to ATP standards. Having said that, I think each step of my progression has been important and I don't think I would've been as successful had I not done the steps.

If you're going to fly the flight levels and mix it up with the big boys you should have a good game. Things bite harder and faster.