ATC VFR Question

[MooneyTraveler]

Two recent VFR flights in two different TRSA’s.
I gave Ground/Clearance the usual information including
Cruise altitude 5,500.
My destination was just outside the TRSA so I was not going to be handed off to another facility.
ATC read back included the usual instructions along with “remain at or below 4,000.”
After takeoff, when handed to departure on my initial call their reply was,
“Mooney XYZ, proceed on course.”
That was the last i heard from them until i left the
TRSA and radar service was terminated.
My question——-does “Procede on course” remove my altitude restriction?

 

[Ravioli]

Probably. But in that situation I would have checked in with "departure, bug destroyer 666, four thousand assigned."

Adding the word "assigned" would cause a reply that would clarify. Something to the effect of "Proceed on course, altitude your discretion."

And don't forget... if it's ambiguous the PTT button is your best friend.

 

[luvflyin]

Two recent VFR flights in two different TRSA’s.
I gave Ground/Clearance the usual information including
Cruise altitude 5,500.
My destination was just outside the TRSA so I was not going to be handed off to another facility.
ATC read back included the usual instructions along with “remain at or below 4,000.”
After takeoff, when handed to departure on my initial call their reply was,
“Mooney XYZ, proceed on course.”
That was the last i heard from them until i left the
TRSA and radar service was terminated.
My question——-does “Procede on course” remove my altitude restriction?

No

 

[luvflyin]

Probably. But in that situation I would have checked in with "departure, bug destroyer 666, four thousand assigned."

Adding the word "assigned" would cause a reply that would clarify. Something to the effect of "Proceed on course, altitude your discretion."

And don't forget... if it's ambiguous the PTT button is your best friend.

Yeah. Including your present altitude is also appropriate so they can verify your Mode C. This should be done on all initial check in’s with Radar facilities. Like “one thousand two hundred, climbing to four thousand”

 

[WannFly]

You can always ask for your assigned altitude, but if they say cleared to 4000 or below, you stay there. I usually get a “expect higher with departure”.

I am used to reading that back, learned something new in the last IFR flight I did. When asking for clearance, I got a “cleared to 4000, expect 5500 10 mins after departure”.

I read back, “expect higher with departure “ .

Ground came back and said “expect 5500 10 mins after departure “

I still didn’t get what the difference is, until the CFII pointed out that ATC expects you to be in the clouds and in case of lost comm, after 10 mins you would climb to 5500. That was new to me.

But for VFR, unless they have you “climb and maintain 5500 or VFR altitude your discretion “ you stay at your assigned altitude.

 

[Larry in TN]

My question——-does “Procede on course” remove my altitude restriction?

Definitely not but you can always ask for higher, "[xyz] Departure, [callsign], request [altitude]"

I am used to reading that back, learned something new in the last IFR flight I did. When asking for clearance, I got a “cleared to 4000, expect 5500 10 mins after departure”.

They won't say "cleared to 4,000'", "cleared to" is used to specify a route clearance limit, not an altitude. They will say, "climb and maintain" or "maintain".

I read back, “expect higher with departure “ .
Ground came back and said “expect 5500 10 mins after departure “

The "expect 5,000' 10 minutes after departure" is just for lost communication. That's when they'll protect the higher altitude for you if communication is lost. It has nothing to do with what will happen under normal operations with normal communications. This will be part of most IFR departure clearances. In mountainous areas, it is often five-minutes after departure.

 

[Arnold]

OP said TRSA - TRSAs are weird animals.

AIM 3-5-6-a. "TRSAs are not contained in 14 CFR Part 71 nor are there any TRSA operating rules in 14 CFR Part 91." AIM 3-5-6-c. "Pilots operating under VFR are encouraged to contact the radar approach control and avail themselves of the TRSA Services. However, participation is voluntary on the part of the pilot. "

I read this to mean that a TRSA controller can't tell you what to do. As a matter of comity a VFR pilot might utilize their services and go where they tell you, but VFR you are free at any time to say "I decline radar services, so long."

 

[dmspilot]

My question——-does “Procede on course” remove my altitude restriction?

No, but if you want a different altitude, just ask for it.

OP said TRSA - TRSAs are weird animals.

AIM 3-5-6-a. "TRSAs are not contained in 14 CFR Part 71 nor are there any TRSA operating rules in 14 CFR Part 91." AIM 3-5-6-c. "Pilots operating under VFR are encouraged to contact the radar approach control and avail themselves of the TRSA Services. However, participation is voluntary on the part of the pilot. "

I read this to mean that a TRSA controller can't tell you what to do. As a matter of comity a VFR pilot might utilize their services and go where they tell you

91.123 (b) "Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised."

You are either participating or you're not. You can't selectively participate by following instructions you like and not following instructions you don't like.

 

[Wrench978]

Two recent VFR flights in two different TRSA’s.
I gave Ground/Clearance the usual information including
Cruise altitude 5,500.
My destination was just outside the TRSA so I was not going to be handed off to another facility.
ATC read back included the usual instructions along with “remain at or below 4,000.”
After takeoff, when handed to departure on my initial call their reply was,
“Mooney XYZ, proceed on course.”
That was the last i heard from them until i left the
TRSA and radar service was terminated.
My question——-does “Procede on course” remove my altitude restriction?

I agree that "proceed on course" can be a little ambiguous. The only time I hear it around here is when one specific controller uses it and it honestly doesnt really mean anything. If they want you to go direct a fix, they should clear you to that fix. if they want you to continue on your filed route, a simple "N1234, San Juan Center roger" would suffice. obviously this is directed more to IFR flights. We also have a couple VFR transitions that require set altitudes to get through the San Juan class C. for example, the River Transition going eastbound is to be flown at 1500 msl. per the letter to airmen, we are supposed to stay at 1500 until reaching the loiza river mouth. A lot of times, I will call approach and get "Passing the Loiza River Mouth, resume own nav", which tells me to stay on my assigned heading and altitude. Other times, usually when its slow, Ill get "resume own nav" as soon as Im handed off from the tower, which frees me to resume my own lateral and vertical navigation.

All that to say your situation is either you were on a heading from the tower and "proceed on course" let you turn towards your destination, or the controller should have used clearer language.

 

[Arnold]

You can't selectively participate by following instructions you like and not following instructions you don't like.

That is not what I meant to say. If you don't want to follow ATC instructions you can simply decline TRSA services and then go where you want.

 

[dmspilot]

That is not what I meant to say. If you don't want to follow ATC instructions you can simply decline TRSA services and then go where you want.

I thought that might have been what you meant, but I wanted to make sure it was clear to others reading.

 

[MooneyTraveler]

Two recent VFR flights in two different TRSA’s.
I gave Ground/Clearance the usual information including
Cruise altitude 5,500.
My destination was just outside the TRSA so I was not going to be handed off to another facility.
ATC read back included the usual instructions along with “remain at or below 4,000.”
After takeoff, when handed to departure on my initial call their reply was,
“Mooney XYZ, proceed on course.”
That was the last i heard from them until i left the
TRSA and radar service was terminated.
My question——-does “Procede on course” remove my altitude restriction?

 

[MooneyTraveler]

I thought that might have been what you meant, but I wanted to make sure it was clear to others reading.

Probably. But in that situation I would have checked in with "departure, bug destroyer 666, four thousand assigned."

Adding the word "assigned" would cause a reply that would clarify. Something to the effect of "Proceed on course, altitude your discretion."

And don't forget... if it's ambiguous the PTT button is your best friend.

I just called The ATC folks at one of the TRSA’s to pose this question to them.
They said——
All VFR departures are assigned at or below 4,000 in the initial clearance.
(I knew this)
They said when i am turned over to departure i should be told,”Proceed on course, climb to requested VFR altitude.” And that the controller must have forgotten.

 

[luvflyin]

OP said TRSA - TRSAs are weird animals.

AIM 3-5-6-a. "TRSAs are not contained in 14 CFR Part 71 nor are there any TRSA operating rules in 14 CFR Part 91." AIM 3-5-6-c. "Pilots operating under VFR are encouraged to contact the radar approach control and avail themselves of the TRSA Services. However, participation is voluntary on the part of the pilot. "

I read this to mean that a TRSA controller can't tell you what to do. As a matter of comity a VFR pilot might utilize their services and go where they tell you, but VFR you are free at any time to say "I decline radar services, so long."

Participation is implied. Pilots don’t ‘request TRSA service.’ If they don’t want to participate they must say “negative TRSA service.”

 

[RyanB]

Why not just ask if there’s any confusion?

 

[Joe Pilot]

Nope. just released any heading/vectors with that instruction.