ATC informs me of traffic 500' below me while I am IFR

Bill Haley

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I was coming back from North Carolina last week at 8,000' on an IFR flight plan..... ATC informs me of VFR traffic my 11:00 at 7,500' and 5 miles, type and intentions unknown............I am completely in IMC due to haze/smoke and have negative ground contact. There is no way I could have seen the traffic due to NO visibility. There is no doubt in my mind that the traffic should NOT be VFR as it is complete IMC......

Anyone besides me ever have that happen?
 
ATC doesn’t necessarily know if you’re actually in IMC or not. In that situation you should probably inform them you are and will be unable to maintain visual separation.
 
I was coming back from North Carolina last week at 8,000' on an IFR flight plan..... ATC informs me of VFR traffic my 11:00 at 7,500' and 5 miles, type and intentions unknown............I am completely in IMC due to haze/smoke and have negative ground contact. There is no way I could have seen the traffic due to NO visibility. There is no doubt in my mind that the traffic should NOT be VFR as it is complete IMC......

Anyone besides me ever have that happen?
Not suggesting anyone break the rules, but if you are IFR, you have no way of knowing if it's BKN 4 miles away from you with a hole big enough for someone to play in...
 
One thing I have learned as a pilot is that there are plenty of pilots who fly IMC who are not IR. the guy who sold me my plane bragged about it.
 
ATC doesn’t necessarily know if you’re actually in IMC or not. In that situation you should probably inform them you are and will be unable to maintain visual separation.
:yeahthat:
 
It happens often I just say looking but currently solid IFR.
 
I've had it happen a couple of times. On two different occasions, I was in IMC / large weather systems, so weather was consistent over a very large area, meaning that I doubt the "VFR" traffic was really VFR. :Sigh: some people....
 
I may have been the cause of such an occurrence
I know I was. I was monitoring the frequency and heard myself called out as traffic. I looked up to see the IFR Aircraft pop out between the broken clouds.

And yes, I was VFR. 500 below is both cloud separation and IFR/VFR flight separation. but I have no doubt it did not seem that way from the IFR aircraft's perspective,

(This event is also about the one and only time I allowed my instrument currency to lapse. Easy IFR flight became butt-clenching VFR flight.)
 
Having flown in similar NC conditions last week, I saw conditions that I, as an IFR pilot on a clearance, considered IMC due to smoke and haze: no discernible horizon, a cone of ground visible from 7,000’ but arguably not enough to keep an aircraft straight and level using visual cues alone.

All surrounding ground stations were reporting 3+ mile visibility and were VFR. Flight visibility?

I understand that these are technically VFR conditions and expect VFR traffic but accept that visual traffic avoidance is near impossible. I fly at IFR altitudes and welcome all VFR traffic calls from ATC. ADSB is fantastic and provides a significant additional level of traffic avoidance help.

The sky is big, the system is wonderful, the technology is great, summer smoke is the worst, damn rapid man-induced climate change but we can cope.


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Yep, I've had it before too. In the cases I remember, there was absolutely no way the other aircraft was VFR, as I was flying in areas of hard IFR to the deck. I've also heard the stories from "pilots" bragging about their IMC exploits. Most were not instrument rated to begin with, just thought they were smarter than the average bear.
 
One thing I have learned as a pilot is that there are plenty of pilots who fly IMC who are not IR. the guy who sold me my plane bragged about it.

yeah, I know of people that have flown IFR without talking to anyone in class E airspace for long distances. Seems dumb, but people do it.
 
Yep. I've had it several times when in the clouds. I let ATC know I'm in the clouds and can't see them.
 
Yep, I've had it before too. In the cases I remember, there was absolutely no way the other aircraft was VFR, as I was flying in areas of hard IFR to the deck. I've also heard the stories from "pilots" bragging about their IMC exploits. Most were not instrument rated to begin with, just thought they were smarter than the average bear.
Here's an example of one:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/south-lyon-michigan-y47-comanche-crash.130066/
 
It's been really hazy or smoky this week. Not sure if we have fires in the area or if western fire smoke can carry this far East. . We flew last evening and metars we're 9-10 mile visibility but sure would have been difficult to spot traffic.

Do as @jordane93 says and advise ATC you're imc. They will vector you for separation. Assuming separation is your goal, as opposed to a rant.
 
I was coming back from North Carolina last week at 8,000' on an IFR flight plan..... ATC informs me of VFR traffic my 11:00 at 7,500' and 5 miles, type and intentions unknown............I am completely in IMC due to haze/smoke and have negative ground contact. There is no way I could have seen the traffic due to NO visibility. There is no doubt in my mind that the traffic should NOT be VFR as it is complete IMC......

Anyone besides me ever have that happen?
Yes - last week on my IFR X Country. My CFII commented back "Copy" or something like that. We were in IMC. Didn't consider that would happen - learned a ton on that trip. This is where the CFII said "I've never seen haze this bad all over".
 
It's been really hazy or smoky this week. Not sure if we have fires in the area or if western fire smoke can carry this far East. . We flew last evening and metars we're 9-10 mile visibility but sure would have been difficult to spot traffic.

Do as @jordane93 says and advise ATC you're imc. They will vector you for separation. Assuming separation is your goal, as opposed to a rant.
Not always. If you want to be vectored around that target, you should ask to be.
 
ATC doesn't know that you are IMC.

If you are concerned about the proximity of the VFR traffic that you can't see, request a vector away from the traffic.

It happens often I just say looking but currently solid IFR.
I'd say, "Negative contact".

The P/CG lists "Negative contact" and "Traffic in sight" as responses to traffic calls.
 
Per the FAAO 7110.65 Controllers shall issue traffic advisories(emphasis mine):

"2-1-21- Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your frequency when, in your judgment, their proximity may diminish to less than the applicable separation minima. Where no separation minima applies, such as for VFR aircraft outside of Class B/Class C airspace, or a TRSA, issue traffic advisories to those aircraft on your frequency when in your judgment their proximity warrants it. Provide this service as follows:..."

It then goes on to tell them how to give an advisory, that they should give you vectors to avoid if asked and tell you when the traffic is no longer a factor if you do not have it in sight. Sounds to me like the controller was spot on in this case. The aircraft may or may not have VMC, hopefully he was, but either controllers can't know one way or another. At least he was at a VFR altitude.
 
At least you were notified about the traffic.

The smoke and haze has been terrible here in NC. I flew a local VFR flight last week when the visibility was supposed to be 5 miles...it was more like 3 miles and was much worse if you were flying mid morning east bound toward the sun. I decided to just make a few circuits and not press my luck flying into the muck for no good reason.
 
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It's been really hazy or smoky this week. Not sure if we have fires in the area or if western fire smoke can carry this far East.

Western smoke easily carries this far (and further). Ask eastern sailplane pilots who can often detect the impact of even relatively minor western fires on eastern heating levels. I’ve seen contest days canceled due to smoke even though conditions were easily VFR clear.

I wonder about the impact of NC/SC fires on air quality… but people don’t live in the Atlantic.


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Per the FAAO 7110.65 Controllers shall issue traffic advisories(emphasis mine):

"2-1-21- Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your frequency when, in your judgment, their proximity may diminish to less than the applicable separation minima. Where no separation minima applies, such as for VFR aircraft outside of Class B/Class C airspace, or a TRSA, issue traffic advisories to those aircraft on your frequency when in your judgment their proximity warrants it. Provide this service as follows:..."

It then goes on to tell them how to give an advisory, that they should give you vectors to avoid if asked and tell you when the traffic is no longer a factor if you do not have it in sight. Sounds to me like the controller was spot on in this case. The aircraft may or may not have VMC, hopefully he was, but either controllers can't know one way or another. At least he was at a VFR altitude.
Yup. It's 2-1-21 6. that talks about the "...if asked..." you mentioned.

6. When requested by the pilot, issue radar vectors to assist in avoiding the traffic, provided the aircraft to be vectored is within your area of jurisdiction or coordination has been effected with the sector/facility in whose area the aircraft is operating.

More on this in 5-1-8
5−1−8. MERGING TARGET PROCEDURES
a. Except while they are established in a holding pattern, apply merging target procedures to all radar identified:
1. Aircraft at 10,000 feet and above.
2. Turbojet aircraft regardless of altitude.
3. Presidential aircraft regardless of altitude.
b. Issue traffic information to those aircraft listed in subpara a. whose targets appear likely to merge unless the aircraft are separated by more than the appropriate vertical separation minima.
c. When both aircraft in subpara b are in RVSM airspace, and vertically separated by 1,000 feet, if either pilot reports they are unable to maintain RVSM due to turbulence or mountain wave, vector either aircraft to avoid merging with the target of the other aircraft.
d. If the pilot requests, vector his/her aircraft to avoid merging with the target of previously issued traffic.
e. If unable to provide vector service, inform the pilot.
 
I was coming back from North Carolina last week at 8,000' on an IFR flight plan..... ATC informs me of VFR traffic my 11:00 at 7,500' and 5 miles, type and intentions unknown............I am completely in IMC due to haze/smoke and have negative ground contact. There is no way I could have seen the traffic due to NO visibility. There is no doubt in my mind that the traffic should NOT be VFR as it is complete IMC......

Anyone besides me ever have that happen?
Yes just recently. I was IFR in and out of the clouds. ATC alerted me and I explained I was in and out of the clouds. That is all that was said.

A little while later I think I heard that traffic ask for FF.
 
Yay, @Larry in TN

"got im' on the box"
"Looking"

= not really right

"Negative contact" = preferred

I hope this is not too excessive; I say, "Negative contact, we're IMC right now"
 
Yay, @Larry in TN

"got im' on the box"
"Looking"

= not really right

"Negative contact" = preferred

I hope this is not too excessive; I say, "Negative contact, we're IMC right now"

Damn straight. ATC only needs one piece of information: you have visual contact, to which the response is "TRAFFIC IN SIGHT" or that you don't "NEGATIVE CONTACT." "Looking", "I've got him on the Fish Finder", etc... conveys no useful information.

Years ago I was on an instrument approach, hard in the soup. ATC called unverified traffic ahead of me. I told them that I was solid in the soup and that I'd make another lap around the hold-in-loo until they moved off. Turns out it was TWO flight instructors, the safety pilot one had allowed the hooded pilot to drift up into IMC without a clearance (the hooded pilot was understandably livid as well).
 
Damn straight. ATC only needs one piece of information: you have visual contact, to which the response is "TRAFFIC IN SIGHT" or that you don't "NEGATIVE CONTACT." "Looking", "I've got him on the Fish Finder", etc... conveys no useful information.
Obviously nothing other than "traffic in sight" takes the burden of visual separation off the controller's shoulders, but I don't have a problem with "looking." Every single time I have ever heard it, it was a very efficient one-word fulfillment of the very first pilot obligation in AIM 5-5-10. (Translation: "Yes I heard you and am looking for the traffic, but don't see it yet." )

5-5-10. Traffic Advisories (Traffic Information)
a. Pilot.
1. Acknowledges receipt of traffic advisories.​
 
Anyone besides me ever have that happen?

Yes I was VFR El Paso to Fullerton (KFUL) with a LOT of weather around on a July 4th and I was the ONLY one the controller had due to altitude below 10k ... he cleared me through ALL the restricted areas in southern AZ (due to a massive line from eat of PHX to Blythe) ... in short order, 4 or 5 IFR flights asked for the same, but for some reason would have to be VFR (don't know why) and descended to *near* my altitude. All of the "new VFR" planes in trail behind me were definitely still in IMC claiming they were VFR as I was on the same route, lower and maintaining 500 clearance under ... guess it goes both ways, sometimes the IFRs that are now VFRs aren't being truthful
 
yeah, I know of people that have flown IFR without talking to anyone in class E airspace for long distances. Seems dumb, but people do it.
How can you fly IFR in Class E without talking to anyone? Doesn't IFR require a clearance in controlled airspace?
 
I miss 'Popeye.' I'm gonna say it next time I get a traffic call in the goo.:ihih:

Remember the first time I heard that on GCA training. Looked up at my monitor “WTH?”
 
ATC doesn't know that you are IMC.

If you are concerned about the proximity of the VFR traffic that you can't see, request a vector away from the traffic.


I'd say, "Negative contact".

The P/CG lists "Negative contact" and "Traffic in sight" as responses to traffic calls.
Once when I said "negative contact," the controller responded as if I had said "contact."
 
How can you fly IFR in Class E without talking to anyone? Doesn't IFR require a clearance in controlled airspace?
Yes. So how you do it is just do it without asking. Easy peasy. If ya get caught, getting outta trouble ain’t gonna be so easy peasy
 
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