At what distance does it become economical...?

[AggieMike88]

For my current commercial pilot gig, I am flying various doctors from KADS and KTKI to airports in East Texas and SE Oklahoma. The aircraft is a Bonanza A36 that is working well for hops of these distances.

At the different airports, I see the small King Airs, the Phenoms, and the smaller Citations.

And as I wait for the doctors to finish their day, I dream about what it would be like to be PIC of those aircraft.

So that brought the question... Super short hops like I'm doing (80-100NM) doesn't work for the cabin class twins, KA's, and jets. But at what distances (one way) does each type start making it worth operating?

 

[murphey]

When someone else can afford it.

 

[midwestpa24]

Aircraft almost never make direct financial sense. It's an expense, it's a perk, it's a luxury, or more important, it's a time machine. What is time worth, and at what distance does the additional speed make a real difference? 80-100 miles in a Bonanza versus a King Air, the difference is measured in minutes, maybe even single digits door to door. Even driving isn't a huge difference if all and mostly direct interstate.

 

[NoHeat]

For my current commercial pilot gig, I am flying various doctors … Bonanza A36 …(80-100NM)

I didn’t know there’s a demand for this service.

But what I wonder most is how much liability insurance one can get. (It would be a big bummer for one’s estate to have a fatal crash while carrying a high-income passenger who has dependents.)

 

[Shawn]

Rarely does it make economical sense to fly private at any level...so what you are buying in reality is time which often manifests in flexibility of said time...then it just becomes a question of what is the value of the person's flying time worth?

...and that is not just physical time of airspeed but also what can they do with that time while in the air. Ability to function inside a biz jet is vastly different than in a 172.

 

[RussR]

But at what distances (one way) does each type start making it worth operating?

It’s not really an answerable question, because so much depends on personal preferences. And of course, what airplane you actually have available.

I’ve flown a 421 on 100-150 nm trips. Does it make sense? Maybe, maybe not, but it’s what the owner had and where they wanted to go. I have a client who owns a 340, who is a lawyer and uses it to hop around to the various county courthouses to file paperwork and such. Sometimes it’s a bunch of 50-100 nm legs. Could it be done cheaper in a Bonanza or a 172? Of course, but a 340’s what he has.

There are a lot of King Airs out there that are often used for short hops around a state. Certainly not the most efficient, but there is a certain comfort, status, and reliability with turbines.

Past a certain point, it’s no longer about cost effectiveness.

 

[RussR]

Super short hops like I'm doing (80-100NM) doesn't work for the cabin class twins, KA's, and jets.

I wanted to add, of course it “works”, if that’s what you have available and you need to get there.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Walking is the cheapest form of transportation.....

 

[AggieMike88]

I didn’t know there’s a demand for this service.

The practice owns the aircraft, I'm the Flüber pilot (flying Über).

The practice has contracts with several outlying hospitals to provide the services these doctors provide.

It's a decent gig, flying a few times a week, salaried position. So far 250 hours I didn't have to rent an airplane for.

 

[AggieMike88]

This thread is starting to sound like a response from Deep Thought.

(Not complaining... just comparing to HHGTTG that maybe I just don't know the question.)

 

[Zeldman]

Walking is the cheapest form of transportation.....

Have you seen the price of shoes lately.??

I mean good shoes, not Walmart shoes..

 

[kaiser]

I don’t think it’s much more than 150nm or so. I also have to imagine number of stops each day could also be a factor. Pressurization and air conditioning would help keep pax refreshed and ready to provide world class doctor service.

The practice owns the aircraft, I'm the Flüber pilot (flying Über).

The practice has contracts with several outlying hospitals to provide the services these doctors provide.

It's a decent gig, flying a few times a week, salaried position. So far 250 hours I didn't have to rent an airplane for.

Sounds like the life!

 

[AggieMike88]

Sounds like the life!

It's a good gig. Was hired back in July. And seeing the word "Air Conditioned" on the side of the aircraft sold me.

 

[Lindberg]

Aircraft almost never make direct financial sense. It's an expense, it's a perk, it's a luxury, or more important, it's a time machine. What is time worth, and at what distance does the additional speed make a real difference? 80-100 miles in a Bonanza versus a King Air, the difference is measured in minutes, maybe even single digits door to door. Even driving isn't a huge difference if all and mostly direct interstate.

It doesn't sound like Mike is going that far, but in a state where it takes a day to drive from one side to the other, flying may be the only thing that makes a service like this feasible at all.

 

[catmandu]

You have found one good commercial gig, and you are pondering the next. You will be an international wide-body Captain in no time, if age appropriate. Seriously. Used auto parts were probably fun, but welcome to the next level.

 

[Brad Z]

Isn't 80-100 miles in Texas/Oklahoma a 1 hour drive?

 

[AggieMike88]

It doesn't sound like Mike is going that far, but in a state where it takes a day to drive from one side to the other, flying may be the only thing that makes a service like this feasible at all.

For the doctors, I believe having the aircraft is a big "time machine" perk of being part of the practice.

The longest flight is about 1.0 hour one way in good weather and minimal vectoring and he gets to chill out on the ride.

If he had to drive, it would be 2.5 hours easy.

 

[AggieMike88]

You have found one good commercial gig, and you are pondering the next. You will be an international wide-body Captain in no time, if age appropriate. Seriously. Used auto parts were probably fun, but welcome to the next level.

The fellow who's seat I took over in July went to Skywest. Within 5 months he was able to get back to DFW for his base. Tonight he posted he starts as a FO an A320.

Yeah, the salvage yard was good to me. But flight is way more fun and a more interesting set of challenges. And employment I am excited to do until I can't physically do it no mo.

 

[Lindberg]

For the doctors, I believe having the aircraft is a big "time machine" perk of being part of the practice.

The longest flight is about 1.0 hour one way in good weather and minimal vectoring and he gets to chill out on the ride.

If he had to drive, it would be 2.5 hours easy.

Saving three hours round trip at Dr. rates probably pays for a lot of gas.

 

[RingLaserGyroSandwich]

I think this question depends a lot on whether or not fleet standardization is a factor. For a lone plane, there is no one obvious metric to use for comparing the different varieties of airplane.

 

[sarangan]

Aircraft almost never make direct financial sense. It's an expense, it's a perk, it's a luxury, or more important, it's a time machine. What is time worth, and at what distance does the additional speed make a real difference? 80-100 miles in a Bonanza versus a King Air, the difference is measured in minutes, maybe even single digits door to door. Even driving isn't a huge difference if all and mostly direct interstate.

For a 100 mile distance, you can't beat driving. For 2000 mile distance, its hard to beat airlines. In between GA can make a big difference.

I just did a 450 mile trip in our club 182. I left in the morning, spent the whole day there, had dinner with clients, and returned home that same evening. Our 182 can easily cruise at 140 knots. Cost is $138/tach hr. As the crow flies, it is 340NM. Total flight time was 4.8 hrs on the tach, so my cost was $662. Driving time is 8 hrs each way according to google. I have driven this before, and that is very optimistic. It is more like 10 hrs each way. IRS mileage rate for that distance is $522. It is not possible to drive that distance without two nights at a hotel. By the time you add the hotel cost and meals, you will be close to $1000. That does not even include all the time you will be away from the office and your family.

 

[aggie06]

My first CFI was an old guy that used to have that gig. Pretty sure it was the exact gig out of TKI, not just one like it. I am pretty sure he still fills in sometimes. He tried to get me to do it but alas I never got my commercial.

Depending on how much you value your time and whether there is commercial service between the places you want to go, small GA makes a lot of sense. I used to do a lot of work in El Dorado, Arkansas. There was a C208 flight from DAL to ELD that was cheaper and faster than driving. My plane was not allowed by my company but it may have saved a ton of time over driving once or twice when the 208 was full. I have to believe the thing that makes the turbines a better choice though is dispatch reliability. If you’re a big important dude, not getting somewhere is a lot of money.

 

[AggieMike88]

I am pretty sure he still fills in sometimes

I have had the gig since summer and it’s just myself and another who isn’t a CFI (yet). No others and no “fill ins”

The aircraft is based at Denton and we are I. And out of TKI frequently.

Any chance you’re talking about Paul S. who has a V35B at AeroCountry?

 

[iamtheari]

We have a King Air that flies in a couple days a week with some doctors. The distance they fly is 120 nm. I’m sure they go other places with the plane. The economics probably relate at least in part to this question: “What is it going to take to get a world-class doctor to practice in a variety of rural communities in the frozen hinterland?” Or, at least, “How much more would we have to pay the doctors to convince them to ride in a Bonanza instead of a King Air?”

 

[Craig]

Mike: It's a load vs distance calculation on when it works. One or two people and under 250 miles, probably not worth it. 4-6 and over 150 miles, probably would be. King Air isn't going to be very efficient where you don't spend much time at cruise. I'd suggest running the numbers for time, distance and fuel to cruise altitude, and then the decent numbers and then look at the where those numbers start to make sense.

 

[PaulS]

Money wise, it never makes sense. Time wise, for a small GA plane, I figure around 100 miles, especially if you want to be back home the same day.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Mike: It's a load vs distance calculation on when it works. One or two people and under 250 miles, probably not worth it. 4-6 and over 150 miles, probably would be. King Air isn't going to be very efficient where you don't spend much time at cruise. I'd suggest running the numbers for time, distance and fuel to cruise altitude, and then the decent numbers and then look at the where those numbers start to make sense.

250-miles or so is about where I think the line is where there would be meaningful time savings (obviously meaningful is relative) to go turbine. The next factor is number of passengers/cargo. If the A36 is only ferrying one or two doctors and some small bags for the day, you aren't likely running up close to minimum fuel requirements for a 2-hr trip. However, if it's 4 doctors/staff and overnight bags, you're going to be running into issues of both space/comfort and fuel. I'd think the Tulsa-DFW routes, DFW-Houston, etc. would be better candidates for the KA/TBM/PC12 work. At some point it might depend on the end destination and what airfields are available as well. If the doctors are having to drive to a KADS but fly into another major hub, it may not make much sense. Keeping the aircraft smaller can get them closer to the end destination where small town airfields can't accommodate a KA90.

 

[RussR]

Isn't 80-100 miles in Texas/Oklahoma a 1 hour drive?

Pretty close!

It's a good point, though. I used to live in Virginia and Maryland, and the time savings of traveling by air out in that area were very significant - traffic as one reason, but also winding roads and water and bridges and such mean a much longer distance driving. Out here in OK, most of the places you would need to go have interstates to get you most of the way there. Once you include getting to and from the airport, the time savings by plane really isn't very significant for travel to a large part of the state.

I remember when we lived out East, we took several trips that even in a Warrior saved us a ton of time. We have a friend who lives in BFE northern Pennsylvania (not to be confused with KBFE, TX, of course). I think the difference was 2.5 hours by Warrior or 7 hours by car. Huge difference. Another trip was 1.5 hours vs 5 hours.

Out here, I've had the occasion to fly from Ok City to Tulsa a couple of times where my wife will drive up and give me a ride back. It's a 2 hour drive and about a 45-60 minute flight (depending on plane and wind of course) - but if we were to leave the house at the same time, we get there right about the same time once you consider my drive to the airport, getting the plane out, etc.

Obviously passengers like in @AggieMike88 's case aren't concerned with preflight and "getting the plane" out issues. But then again, depending on the business, there is definitely a certain cachet to arriving in your own plane that may make any time savings irrelevant - it may signal that you are successful at what you do and that the potential client should definitely hire your company.

 

[TCABM]

For a 100 mile distance, you can't beat driving….

That’s rather simplistic. 100NM as the crow flies may very well take 3+ hours to drive between the same points and that’s before congestion or other road complications.

5C1 to GTU (89NM) is pretty much a door to door comparison whether I leave the house to fly it or drive it.

With no traffic hiccups, it’s ~2.1 hrs to drive with no hiccups, or 0.7 flying time. If I’m the paying pax, that’s 1.4 hrs time savings for me.

If I’m the pilot for that leg, I can go door to door from my home to 5C1 to GTU to my brother’s home in less that 2hrs total travel time.

 

[RussR]

With no traffic hiccups, it’s ~2.1 hrs to drive with no hiccups, or 0.7 flying time. If I’m the paying pax, that’s 1.4 hrs time savings for me.

Unless the passenger lives at the departure airport and has business at the destination airport, they still have driving time to and from the airports to factor in.

 

[cowtowner]

I fly myself for business, it's about 70% of my time flying. I own a lowly Cherokee 180 that's paid for and in good condition. It actually gets better MPG than my F350 dually (and cost a lot less)

I have spent the last few months looking for something faster. I just can't justify it right now

1. Prices of airplanes is at an all time high
2. Insurance rates are going to kill the budget (quoted $6,200 a year for a C210D)
3. If my current plane sits for a month, I'm not bothered. I have cheap hangar rent, the plane is paid for and if it doesn't fly it doesn't bother me. (I have flown almost 400 hours in the last two years)
4. Yeah, the Cherokee is slow, and requires a fuel stop on some of my normal legs, but within about 800nm, I can beat the airlines door to door. It also allows me the flexibility to come and go as I please, rather on the airlines schedule
5. Where the plane has been proven to be totally worth it is flying to Monterrey Mexico. No CV tests on the way back, no waiting at immigration for an hour at DFW.

Yes, I want a SR22 G6, I could afford it. But I'm way too cheap to invest that much money into an asset that could never "pay for itself"

 

[Brad Z]

Pretty close!

It's a good point, though. I used to live in Virginia and Maryland, and the time savings of traveling by air out in that area were very significant - traffic as one reason, but also winding roads and water and bridges and such mean a much longer distance driving. Out here in OK, most of the places you would need to go have interstates to get you most of the way there. Once you include getting to and from the airport, the time savings by plane really isn't very significant for travel to a large part of the state.

I remember when we lived out East, we took several trips that even in a Warrior saved us a ton of time. We have a friend who lives in BFE northern Pennsylvania (not to be confused with KBFE, TX, of course). I think the difference was 2.5 hours by Warrior or 7 hours by car. Huge difference. Another trip was 1.5 hours vs 5 hours.

Out here, I've had the occasion to fly from Ok City to Tulsa a couple of times where my wife will drive up and give me a ride back. It's a 2 hour drive and about a 45-60 minute flight (depending on plane and wind of course) - but if we were to leave the house at the same time, we get there right about the same time once you consider my drive to the airport, getting the plane out, etc.

Obviously passengers like in @AggieMike88 's case aren't concerned with preflight and "getting the plane" out issues. But then again, depending on the business, there is definitely a certain cachet to arriving in your own plane that may make any time savings irrelevant - it may signal that you are successful at what you do and that the potential client should definitely hire your company.

Exactly. I live in Alexandria, plane is about 20-25 minutes across the river in Maryland, and I frequently make trips down to the Richmond area. If I-95 traffic is bad, it makes sense to make the 35 minute flight. If traffic isn't bad, the 90 mile drive door to door is much faster (and I have wheels). I'm reasonably quick with my pre and post flight routine, but I'm really looking at a 3+ hour drive before it makes sense to fly in order to save time.

 

[mondtster]

For a 50-100 mile hop, I wonder if a helicopter might be more practical if the pick up and drop off locations could be adjusted to minimize drive time at one or both ends.

 

[TCABM]

Unless the passenger lives at the departure airport and has business at the destination airport, they still have driving time to and from the airports to factor in.

I know, which is why I used my own personal example. My front door to the ‘drome I was based out of is 12 mins is 14 mins. Real world experience I’ve done both ways (drive it or fly it).

If I have to plan around traffic on I-35, then flying always wins.

 

[Randomskylane]

Exactly. I live in Alexandria, plane is about 20-25 minutes across the river in Maryland, and I frequently make trips down to the Richmond area. If I-95 traffic is bad, it makes sense to make the 35 minute flight. If traffic isn't bad, the 90 mile drive door to door is much faster (and I have wheels). I'm reasonably quick with my pre and post flight routine, but I'm really looking at a 3+ hour drive before it makes sense to fly in order to save time.

I’m currently in no va. My brother moved to eastern shore. Under an hour by plane or 3-5 by car. Same with going to deep creek lake.

 

[aggie06]

I have had the gig since summer and it’s just myself and another who isn’t a CFI (yet). No others and no “fill ins”

The aircraft is based at Denton and we are I. And out of TKI frequently.

Any chance you’re talking about Paul S. who has a V35B at AeroCountry?

No, this is an older guy named Richard. He’s a retired engineer and a CFI in one of the clubs at TKI. I got the impression he was one of the guys who would get a call to fill in when someone like you gets a new job. I’m almost positive it’s the same gig.

Of course now that I actually count it up, I probably haven’t talked to him in 5 years. Haven’t used him for my last couple BFRs. Geez that makes me feel old.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I think a late model baron is the sweet spot for what you describe. I know of a couple programs similar to what you have and over time they have both ended up either upgrading or downgrading to a Barron.

 

[Brad Z]

I’m currently in no va. My brother moved to eastern shore. Under an hour by plane or 3-5 by car. Same with going to deep creek lake.

Yep, leaping traffic and bays save big time. We frequently head over to Cape May for dinner because it's only a 45 minute flight, versus a 4 hour drive each way. Weekend trips to Hatteras are possible when it's a 1:45 flight versus a 7 hour drive each way.

 

[catmandu]

Late model Baron was the sweet spot for a friend to commute daily to Frederick, MD, and then weekends to Ocean City, MD (30 minute flight for each, he enjoyed flying).

 

[mcdewey]

Yep, leaping traffic and bays save big time. We frequently head over to Cape May for dinner because it's only a 45 minute flight, versus a 4 hour drive each way. Weekend trips to Hatteras are possible when it's a 1:45 flight versus a 7 hour drive each way.

We love going over to 26N (Ocean City, NJ) from W29 (Bay Bridge) and do the 10 minute walk over to the beach. Driving would take forever and it's even better to look down and see the traffic jams.