Asking For A Friend: 8 Passenger Planes & Costs

Sinistar

Sinistar

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Brad
My hangar neighbor called me last night. His brother in-law owns two businesses and has been considering an airplane for both work and some off-work travel. First some parameters:

What I Know
Never more than Pilot + 7 passengers (8 total) and some baggage
The majority of the trips will be business and at least Pilot + 5 people.
Trips will originate out of the Twin Cities area
Most trips would be 700nm or less, probably 500nm for most.
The closest trip to mountains would be Denver (no farther west)
Most trips will be to Dakotas, Iowa, Illinois, Nebraska, Wisconsin
He also wants to fly up into Canada (650nm) but not over mountains
Will need to stop on the Canada outbound flight for customs so two legs out.
Will want to fly in all seasons up here in the Midwest (should be able to handle ice).
Will only fly into paved runways (ie 4000x75ft would be smallest)
Would most likely place it into a LLC that his two other businesses would use.
I am pretty sure a PC-12 is out of his purchase price range so keep that in mind for questions.

So he has several questions that I will break into groups:

The Plane:
What planes can safely handle this mission and keep the overall costs down?
What would a ballpark purchase price and hourly rate be for each?
What would a realistic range be for each plane (can any do 700nm)?
What would a realistic cruise speed be?
How reliable are these planes?

The Pilot/Rules
Do all flights then fall under Part135 rules.
Can my hangar buddy be his pilot (he is 1500hrs, IR/Commercial but not ME).
What would be recommended minimum amount of ME experience (general and in type)
Will the pilot of this plane need a 2nd class or 1st class medical.

Business/Money Stuff
Is there a type of business (eg. broker) that someone like him should calling to get started?
Would there be any advantage to having the plane belong to one of his 2 businesses?
What is insurance going to cost him for this type of setup?
Is there a group/company he could call that knows about fractional offerings out there?
Should he be considering letting other businesses (eg Charter) also use the plane?

I'm just trying to help get them some ideas to get started. I know I can get him a direct meeting with a 414 owner. I think I might be able to get him a meeting with a Chief Pilot for a small Charter service. After that I have no clue?
 
A 414 or 421 sounds like a good fit for this mission and a C208 might be too.

Sinistar said:
Do all flights then fall under Part135 rules.
Click to expand...
No, you can still operate part 91.
 
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As I was reading it I was thinking PC12 the whole way. Then I read your part about it being too much. His business insurance most certainly won't be cool with a non professional pilot flying employees around. There is a lot of liability there and they usually like pilots that have the amount of experience commensurate with normal pro corporate pilots.

Edit: I think both the airplane insurance and the business insurance will be tricky to satisfy with only 1500 hrs and no multi.
 
Less expensive, and older, but a Piper Chieftain could fit the bill.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
And do the employees and their families really know the risk of being in a twin piloted by a non commercial professional pilot? Ugh


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Sinistar said:
Do all flights then fall under Part135 rules.
Click to expand...
Do you mean not all his flights will be private and require a Part 135 ticket?
How many flights per year average?
 
PC12 or King Air 200, anything less won’t get it done. Someone mentioned a 208....I’d rather take the bus or hitchhike than slog through winter icing in the midwest in one of those. They’re turds.

- someone whos flown the 208, PC12, and B200 for work
 
Maybe get ahold of the guys at Elliott @ KFCM and talk to them about their deals with jetlinx? Kinda like Uber, but the drivers are licensed. Bigish airplane ownership for a business is a real pita unless you have a full time guy running the aviation department. Opinion only offered since ya axed. Sure is fun tho!
 
Buy a block of 50hrs on a Ka200 or PC12 from one of the many 135 operators in the twin cities. Fly off that block and sit down with his accountant to decide whether his business use supports a dedicated company plane.
 
Sinistar said:
The Plane:
What planes can safely handle this mission and keep the overall costs down?
Click to expand...

It depends to some extent on what "down" means to you. There is no plane that could do this mission in my budget; presumably yours is considerably higher, but do you have a general range in mind?
 
deyoung said:
It depends to some extent on what "down" means to you. There is no plane that could do this mission in my budget; presumably yours is considerably higher, but do you have a general range in mind?
Click to expand...
I wish I had a budget to share but the request to learn more didn't come with any solid numbers. I suppose the company owner is just wondering what it costs vs saying "Hey, I am willing to spend this much." Can't blame him for that I guess.
 
weilke said:
Buy a block of 50hrs on a Ka200 or PC12 from one of the many 135 operators in the twin cities. Fly off that block and sit down with his accountant to decide whether his business use supports a dedicated company plane.
Click to expand...
This seems like really solid advice and would get him in a door talking to someone who does this for a living and understands all the numbers. Excellent idea, I will pass it along.

If you could take a guess...what would this block cost....even a rough guess would be helpful?

Also, in this situation lets say he wants to fly from the Twin Cities to Omaha and overnight for 4 nights. Will they fly it back empty that day and bill him hours for the empty return flight and the other empty pickup flight to get them?
 
Eric Stoltz said:
Maybe get ahold of the guys at Elliott @ KFCM and talk to them about their deals with jetlinx? Kinda like Uber, but the drivers are licensed. Bigish airplane ownership for a business is a real pita unless you have a full time guy running the aviation department. Opinion only offered since ya axed. Sure is fun tho!
Click to expand...
Will do. I trained out of KFCM and wasn't sure if I should steer him towards Elliot, Jet Center or Executive.
 
Bell206 said:
Do you mean not all his flights will be private and require a Part 135 ticket?
How many flights per year average?
Click to expand...
I am not sure but lets say 30 flights a year, averaging 450nm each way (round trips). And 2 or 3 personal trips pushing 650nm one way.

*Edited* Changed 20 flights per year to 30.
 
Tommar98 said:
And do the employees and their families really know the risk of being in a twin piloted by a non commercial professional pilot? Ugh Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I will definitely pass this along verbatim. I know my friend is having fun talking with his brother in law about this and has recently had a ride in a 414 across from us (privately owned) so maybe that is on his mind. But my friend is also pretty humble and once he understands more I know he'd back off on thinking he'd be the pilot.
 
So a few suggestions for a 208 but even more against and I think I get that.

I am surprised not more mentions of 414 and Navajo. Your guys are mainly suggesting turbo props instead....is it because the piston twins don't have the useful load or maintenance or what? Sorry, stuff beyond my understanding so probably a dumb question.
 
Sinistar said:
This seems like really solid advice and would get him in a door talking to someone who does this for a living and understands all the numbers. Excellent idea, I will pass it along.

If you could take a guess...what would this block cost....even a rough guess would be helpful?
Click to expand...

100k give or take.

If he thinks that that is 'money', then sole ownership of a 8 seat business aircraft may not be for him.

Btw. there are frequently noncompeting companies who share use of a plane (trucking co and insurance agency, dentist and construction co). Different ways to skin that cat, but usually they would form a joint venture to own the plane or rent it to each other. The crew is either hired as company employees or it is contracted through a part 135 operator that flies the same hardware.

Also, in this situation lets say he wants to fly from the Twin Cities to Omaha and overnight for 4 nights. Will they fly it back empty that day and bill him hours for the empty return flight and the other empty pickup flight to get them?
Click to expand...

That's the big problem with chartering. It works great for same-day out&back trips or single overnights. Once you overnight for 4 days, you either have to spend the hours for the plane to return to base, or you are stuck paying to either return the crew on the airlines or pay some form of standby charge for them to stay on location. Either is $$$.

Now, for a place like Omaha, there is really no point to charter or take the company plane. There are like 10 flights every day and even with maximal utilization of a charter, the airline will still be cheaper.
Where the charter shines is if the destination is not Omaha but Scotts Bluff, NE and he realizes that what used to take 4 days with rental cars and per-diem charges for 6 employees can now be done in Two. Out at 6 am on day one, work 12hrs rather than 8, back the second day late in the evening.
 
Sinistar said:
I wish I had a budget to share but the request to learn more didn't come with any solid numbers. I suppose the company owner is just wondering what it costs vs saying "Hey, I am willing to spend this much." Can't blame him for that I guess.
Click to expand...
.5-1m to buy. 200k a year fixed cost. Plus hourly cost 1k +
 
Sinistar said:
Will do. I trained out of KFCM and wasn't sure if I should steer him towards Elliot, Jet Center or Executive.
Click to expand...
Thread drift, where did you train? I kinda grew up there. General Aviation Services in the NE corner was my jam back in the olden days.
 
Wheels Up costs, according to the Sherpa Report:

"Individuals pay an initiation fee of $17,500 ($29,500 for businesses), with annual dues in year two and beyond priced at $8,500 for individuals ($14,500 for businesses). Members pay a fixed hourly rate only for occupied flights: $4,295 on the King Air and $7,495 on the Citation Exel/XLS."

Wheelsup.com
 
Cluemeister said:
Wheels Up costs, according to the Sherpa Report:

"Individuals pay an initiation fee of $17,500 ($29,500 for businesses), with annual dues in year two and beyond priced at $8,500 for individuals ($14,500 for businesses). Members pay a fixed hourly rate only for occupied flights: $4,295 on the King Air and $7,495 on the Citation Exel/XLS."

Wheelsup.com
Click to expand...

Keep in mind, this is 'occupied'. So different from a regular charter you don't pay for the positioning flights. The 4 day trip to Omaha you pay for 1:20 from FCM to OMA on day one and 1:20 for the return on day 4. You don't have to worry about returning the plane or paying a standby charge for crew and plane. But then, the wheelsup charge is probably twice the hourly of a classic charter. Sounds like it may be a good option, except that he would lose he initiation fee if he decides after a year that he either needs his own plane or no aviation use at all.
 
I would start with something like wheels up and then move to ownership if he finds he's flying employees constantly.
 
Sinistar said:
So a few suggestions for a 208 but even more against and I think I get that.

I am surprised not more mentions of 414 and Navajo. Your guys are mainly suggesting turbo props instead....is it because the piston twins don't have the useful load or maintenance or what? Sorry, stuff beyond my understanding so probably a dumb question.
Click to expand...

A 414 or Navajo will not carry 8 adults 450 miles. Not enough useful load and barely enough seats.
 
Eric Stoltz said:
Thread drift, where did you train? I kinda grew up there. General Aviation Services in the NE corner was my jam back in the olden days.
Click to expand...
I started my PPL training there and logistics drove me to finish up locally. Right now the biggest training FBO's somewhat in order are: In-Flight (at Elliot), Thunderbird, Hummingbird (our own Loren who got his ATP and is flying for the airlines run it) and Air Trek north. My wife did her private at KFCM in the summer of 1987 I think. Not sure if it was Hummingbird or something different back then. IIRC, Hummingbird and the Rotor training are in the most NE FBO's on the field.
 
Thank for all the answers, suggestions and concerns so far. I will be meeting with my friend this weekend and will show him all the posts so far so he can get a better feel for what his brother in-law is really getting into.

Perhaps one thing that makes this seem a bit more "simple" is that we have a 414 on the field (hangar just across from us) owned privately by a owner of a law firm. I am sure he uses it occasionally for business. However, you see him more often taking 4 or 5 friends and 3 or 4 dogs to go hunting in SD. He flys Young Eagles in it (always a hit). And so far he's taken it on a few of our fun flights and takes him plus 3 or 4 people. He also loads it up and flys into OSH for the day and then back that night.

I think from a "distance" this makes something like a 414 seem like its a strong possibility. But with pilot + 7 and a bit farther distances, I think I am learning its not the right fit.

Maybe if his brother in-law's flights were all under 350nm and 5 people or less it would be more appropriate. But the owner has no flight training so he also still needs a pilot.
 
Sinistar said:
I started my PPL training there and logistics drove me to finish up locally. Right now the biggest training FBO's somewhat in order are: In-Flight (at Elliot), Thunderbird, Hummingbird (our own Loren who got his ATP and is flying for the airlines run it) and Air Trek north. My wife did her private at KFCM in the summer of 1987 I think. Not sure if it was Hummingbird or something different back then. IIRC, Hummingbird and the Rotor training are in the most NE FBO's on the field.
Click to expand...

G&R back in the 87 era, General Aviation Services after that, then Hummingbird. Back in the day when it was a dirt road and Elliott was just the one hangar and no fence.

Anyway, I'm kinda surprised, but not really, at the expense of Up. Would be a fun retirement gig, maybe.
 
Sinistar said:
lets say 30 flights a year, averaging 450nm each way (round trips). And 2 or 3 personal trips pushing 650nm one way.
Click to expand...
Just to add to the above, with that possible usage and the possible need for 8 pax capacity, survey fractional services within a 250 mile area and get some quotes. One method a few old customers used when looking at upgrading to larger aircraft was to use the fractional ops as a sort of "top shelf" option. Then they compared the costs of buying an aircraft outright with its associated costs/support requirements to the fractional costs. Good luck.
 
ZeroPapaGolf said:
A 414 or Navajo will not carry 8 adults 450 miles. Not enough useful load and barely enough seats.
Click to expand...
Correct, you'd need 8 little bitty people in a 414A to go 450 miles or hell even to take off!!
 
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