Arrow II flight planning/fuel burn

SFDukie

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Don
I’ll be taking a trip from KHWD to Scottsdale in a rental Arrow II (‘76, FWIW) I’ve taken it on two trips to truckee, but don’t have a feel for what I should use for ”real world” airspeed/fuel burn planning. The POH numbers seem- optimistic.
 
I’ll be taking a trip from KHWD to Scottsdale in a rental Arrow II (‘76, FWIW) I’ve taken it on two trips to truckee, but don’t have a feel for what I should use for ”real world” airspeed/fuel burn planning. The POH numbers seem- optimistic.
I actually did two post-flight write-ups on a similar adventure (In a '72 Arrow II and coincidentally it was to KSDL as well!). It includes the stats you're looking for here and a second trip to the same destination here.

I normally fly 5500-9500' on XC and I conservatively plan on 130 KTAS on 9gph, though it's fully capable of 135 KTAS at 9.5gph. And I normally lean about 100 rich of peak EGT.
 
I actually did two post-flight write-ups on a similar adventure (In a '72 Arrow II and coincidentally it was to KSDL as well!). It includes the stats you're looking for here and a second trip to the same destination here.

I normally fly 5500-9500' on XC and I conservatively plan on 130 KTAS on 9gph, though it's fully capable of 135 KTAS at 9.5gph. And I normally lean about 100 rich of peak EGT.
Wow. That’s exactly the sort of reply I hoped for. Thanks!
What MP/RPM settings do you normally use?
 
I always plan for 10gal/hr as a conservative number in any of the Lyc 360 variants.
Same. I should clarify. For fuel management, I plan for 10.
In practice, I usually burn about a gal less. But I'm never looking to be in a scenario where I need that spare 1-4 gallons I saved over a 1-4 hour flight :) .
 
Wow. That’s exactly the sort of reply I hoped for. Thanks!
What MP/RPM settings do you normally use?
I almost always fly at 65% power on XC flights.
I'm always in the 2400 RPM column to avoid flying oversquare (though to this day I still cannot explain the issue with flying oversquare according to the POH - it's just a holdover of how I was instructed).

The exact MP" varies according to this chart (which I follow religiously when flying)
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I fly rental power (WOT, max 24.5" & 2400rpm) and get closer to 138/140 KTAS at 10.8gph. I aim for 5500-7500 whichever bottom altitude gives me closest to 24-25" at WOT.


bruh
Anddddd that explained how you beat me to Nashville :)
 
135TAS on 9gph is about right in my Arrow III at reasonable altitudes. IO-360 is approved for roughly 4” oversquare (this is a rough approximation but the manual has the exact range). If you need to pull throttle in cruise you’re flying too low.

I also suspect the limits in the manual are over restrictive for cruise given the lower peak pressures when LOP.
 
I fly rental power (WOT, max 24.5" & 2400rpm) and get closer to 138/140 KTAS at 10.8gph. I aim for 5500-7500 whichever bottom altitude gives me closest to 24-25" at WOT.


bruh
Rental power. That’s me. But this trip, it’s pretty close to doable without a fuel stop for me. 557 nm straight line HWD-KSDL, @ 130 kts, just over4 hrs w/ no wind. 48 gals usable. I’ll stop for fuel, because it’s close and I haven’t worked out my numbers for this plane-but if I throttled back a hair, burned under 10g/hr…just thinking aloud.
 
Rental power. That’s me. But this trip, it’s pretty close to doable without a fuel stop for me. 557 nm straight line HWD-KSDL, @ 130 kts, just over4 hrs w/ no wind. 48 gals usable. I’ll stop for fuel, because it’s close and I haven’t worked out my numbers for this plane-but if I throttled back a hair, burned under 10g/hr…just thinking aloud.

Always better to stop for fuel instead of making the news losing the engine 2 miles short of the runway because you ran out of fuel.
 
I fly rental power (WOT, max 24.5" & 2400rpm) and get closer to 138/140 KTAS at 10.8gph. I aim for 5500-7500 whichever bottom altitude gives me closest to 24-25" at WOT.


bruh
Is there an engine monitor? How do you calculate 10.8gph? Just wondering.
 
Always better to stop for fuel instead of making the news losing the engine 2 miles short of the runway because you ran out of fuel.
To be fair, you have 2 tanks, I’ve definitely come close to emptying one, prob 2-3 gal left, but still plenty of fuel in the other tank. Worst case if I emptied the fuel tank, I’d switch back to the other tank, fuel pump on, I should get another 15 minutes. Never got to that point and I’ve been up for almost 6 hours once before.
 
Is there an engine monitor? How do you calculate 10.8gph? Just wondering.
Yup, two of them. One for the engine itself, and the other is a fuel computer which ties to the Garmin 430, etc. That gives us fuel flow and other good info.
 
Rental power. That’s me. But this trip, it’s pretty close to doable without a fuel stop for me. 557 nm straight line HWD-KSDL, @ 130 kts, just over4 hrs w/ no wind. 48 gals usable. I’ll stop for fuel, because it’s close and I haven’t worked out my numbers for this plane-but if I throttled back a hair, burned under 10g/hr…just thinking aloud.
I’ve routinely done 550nm trips without issues both westbound and eastbound (headwinds and tailwinds). These are very routine and no issues fuel wise. You should have about 5-10gal fuel remaining (5-6 gal if flying westbound and 10-12gal if flying eastbound) or more depending on your mixture setting and the winds. Which can be 45min to 1.5 hours flying time depending on your settings.

I have done one trip that was 740nm straight line eastbound with a tailwind with a couple diversions due to weather meaning faster than normal tailwinds but also more distance due to the diversions. I was concerned with my fuel but the fuel gauges were still reporting fuel so I was telling myself it’s time to land as it’s difficult to read those old analog fuel gauges. IIRC I had about 4-5gal left or about 30-45min (I calculate based upon how much fuel I added post flight).

Now, there’s really no reason to stretch it out. It’s always good to find cheap avgas en route and just land to take a break, stretch, toilet, fresh air, water, etc. If en route and a non-towered airport, usually you don’t waste much time.

On another point, one thing I’ve noticed is that it can be difficult to read the MP and RPM setting. Usually I adjust RPM to 2400 for cruise and you can just do maximum throttle. I’ve found that the MP setting is not correct and then I don’t get book numbers, but at WOT (full throttle), you’ll go much faster and get better than those numbers. Planning wise, I plan for 10gph leaned mixture, but it doesn’t really use that much fuel. If you bring back the throttle and take it slower, you can get 6-6.5gph (economy cruise). I used to do that, but now I pretty much open throttle and check my fuel flow rate on the MP gauge. (I think on my Alaska trip I was averaging close to 7gph the whole trip - because I was misreading my gauges and settings). I find the fuel flow gauge shows a little higher than what it actually is whereas MP shows lower than what it is. My guess. Once you know the airplane you’ll understand how to read its instruments and performance. Since you’re paying by time, you might as well do full open throttle at 5-6k feet, unless a tailwind or weather would benefit you at a different altitude.
 
To be fair, you have 2 tanks, I’ve definitely come close to emptying one, prob 2-3 gal left, but still plenty of fuel in the other tank. Worst case if I emptied the fuel tank, I’d switch back to the other tank, fuel pump on, I should get another 15 minutes. Never got to that point and I’ve been up for almost 6 hours once before.
IMO, when traveling long cross countries in my 48 useable gallon Archer2, it is better to plan to fully exhaust fuel after first switching tanks initially after 1 hr (or 10 gal with fuel flow sensor) for balance, and then waiting for the other tank to go 2hrs ( or 20 gallons). At this point, depending upon how far/long you are from destination, I will exhaust that tank fully if far away so as to maximize that initial tank to avoid issues with unporting in turbulence or uncoordinated flight. On the other hand if relatively close, I switch to the initial tank which is the fullest tank, as this makes the most sense to me.
 
I flew in the Arrow II for my complex. Taught to set 2400/22" but I haven't flown a long cross country in it. I'm planning to rent this Arrow to an airport along the path of the solar eclipse coming up. From Tampa, so I'll follow the advice above.
 
I think what’s been taught isn’t required and not sure why it’s done that way.

For example, on takeoff, how long do you keep full power, mixture, prop and fuel pump for?

You retract gear when you do not have usable runway left which is pretty much right after takeoff, and this improved your climb performance.

When do you bring up the flaps? Safe altitude? But when your airspeed increases it’s easy to put unnecessary pressures on the flaps (exceeding max flaps airspeed), so I would climb at Vx until clear obstacle, bring up flaps then climb at Vy.

Keep boost pump, full power and props until you have enough altitude to return to runway for landing if needed. This excess power really lets you climb quickly.

Mixture as needed based upon density altitude.

Once at safe altitude and continuing to climb, power to 25” MP and prop to 2500 RPM, boost pump off.

Then at cruise altitude 2400 RPM. You can keep MP at 25” (or even increase to WOT full throttle) and adjust mixture (lean) to EGTs in the middle or engine roughness than richen mixture a little.

I’ve tried 2200 and 2300 RPMs (these are charted on the 180hp Lycoming engine - different than the 200hp chart posted above). But was having issues maintaining altitude so I never did it again. However given that my MP might be off 1”, I should try again with more MP or WOT. Lower RPM is quieter, haven’t paid attention to what else it does.
 
IMG_5717.jpeg

Here’s a chart for the 180hp. However I have a limitation for running the prop constantly between 2000-2200 RPM. So does that mean I cannot run at 2200 or 2201? I guess my options are 2300 / 2400 for cruise?
 
I’ll be taking a trip from KHWD to Scottsdale in a rental Arrow II (‘76, FWIW) I’ve taken it on two trips to truckee, but don’t have a feel for what I should use for ”real world” airspeed/fuel burn planning. The POH numbers seem- optimistic.
set the fuel flow at 10GPH when above 3000', and open the throttle to full and pull it back just a hair. If that puts you above 24/24 pull throttle and prop back to 24/24. Plan on 130 knots groundspeed.
 
set the fuel flow at 10GPH when above 3000', and open the throttle to full and pull it back just a hair. If that puts you above 24/24 pull throttle and prop back to 24/24. Plan on 130 knots groundspeed.
Why set 24/24? Why not keep the throttle wide open and pull back RPM a little more to achieve desired power? Arrow is fuel injected so you don't have mixture distribution to worry about.

If you can't get the cruise power you want with the prop lever while remaining under ~4" oversquare (roughly the boundary in the Lycoming manual) you're cruising too low.
 
set 2400/22"
I flew around at 2400/22" the other day. It was mega bumpy and I was just time building. It wasn't bad, probably was truing at 125KTAS ish. It was really windy that evening, so my ground speed was 98-160 lol!

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Here’s a chart for the 180hp. However I have a limitation for running the prop constantly between 2000-2200 RPM. So does that mean I cannot run at 2200 or 2201? I guess my options are 2300 / 2400 for cruise?
I know a guy that flies a rental Arrow per the 2100 RPM manifold settings to save on tach time/rental$$$. He says the limitation on the C1C motors is only for below 15". Not sure if the 180hp engines are the same.
 
My Arrow II had a three blade prop, which I believe eliminated the restriction of continuous operation at 2200 RPM. But I always cruised at 22 inches @2400 RPM. I don't recall if the power table was updated for numbers at 2200 rpm (I don't still have the plane or AFM.)
 
My Arrow I happily cruised at 130 KTAS on 9 gph (I flight planned based on 10) at reasonable altitudes, 7500-10500. I almost always cruised at 2300 rpm, full throttle, and rich of peak.
 
I flew around at 2400/22" the other day. It was mega bumpy and I was just time building. It wasn't bad, probably was truing at 125KTAS ish. It was really windy that evening, so my ground speed was 98-160 lol!


I know a guy that flies a rental Arrow per the 2100 RPM manifold settings to save on tach time/rental$$$. He says the limitation on the C1C motors is only for below 15". Not sure if the 180hp engines are the same.
I wonder if there is a percentage on the savings. Hmm….
 
My Arrow I happily cruised at 130 KTAS on 9 gph (I flight planned based on 10) at reasonable altitudes, 7500-10500. I almost always cruised at 2300 rpm, full throttle, and rich of peak.
Do you have any opinions on the differences between 2300 and 2400 RPMs?

For ROP do you have an engine monitor?
 
Do you have any opinions on the differences between 2300 and 2400 RPMs?

For ROP do you have an engine monitor?
I didn’t use 2400rpm enough to develop any opinions about it. My overall opinion is that airplanes can go a little faster on a lot more fuel, and if I’m on a short trip the extra speed doesn’t help much while on a longer trip the shortened range usually hurts more than the extra time going a little slower.

My Arrow had a four cylinder EGT/CHT but not digital fuel flow. I continue to learn how to operate an engine now, having sold the Arrow a couple years ago. But at the time I generally leaned to peak and the enriched to 75-100F ROP.
 
I wonder if there is a percentage on the savings. Hmm….
As a renter who is charged Tach time, the tach runs slower below 2300rpm on many Pipers. So you're getting flight time > tach time, therefore saving money.
 
As a renter who is charged Tach time, the tach runs slower below 2300rpm on many Pipers. So you're getting flight time > tach time, therefore saving money.
I was playing around with 2300 and 2400 RPMs today. I think 2400 is slightly faster? Both at WOT.
 
IMG_1266.jpegAppreciated all of the input- it was a good trip.
Dodged thunderstorms on the way in yo Scottsdale, but otherwise fab trip. Especially fun to see lake Manley in badwater rather than the salt flats usually thereIMG_7507.jpegIMG_7543.jpegIMG_7561.jpegIMG_7567.jpeg
 

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That’s the “lake” at badwater- usually just salt flats (like my top pic, from 2017)
Low point of western hemisphere in Death Valley NP
 
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