Arrow gear won't retract

[Bell206]

Would that qualify as an owner-produced part?

No. But AC 23-27 gives solid guidance in using substitute parts for older aircraft. The are other docs out there for specific systems/parts but the go to is 23-27. So long as you think it is a minor alteration it your good to go. If the substitution is above the major alt level and you need approved data then I would look at owner-produced if I couldn't get a field approval.

are you allowed to use a substitute of some kind? Do you need to get one custom manufactured?

Yes and yes, but it would depend on the part and installation if you needed to obtain additional FAA approval to use it on your aircraft.

 

[Bell206]

The 17.42 is the shop hours.

Looks reasonable.

 

[Plano Pilot]

The powerpack in the school's R182 was showing the brushes getting a bit short. I went looking for the brushes, but nobody had any. They wanted to sell me a rebuilt motor. I made a bunch of noise toward a friendly Cessna dealer, who relayed it to Cessna, and they came up with brushes.

But that was in about 2009. It's a different world now. Even the motors might be scarce. That R182 was a 1978 model, and it's now 44 years old. How long should we reasonably expect to be able to readily source this stuff?

Maybe there's some outfit that has a huge array of brushes available, to fit motors in nearly every conceivable application. If they had some that were almost identical to the ones needed, maybe a bit longer or fatter, they could be ground down to fit. Would that qualify as an owner-produced part?

I lived in Venezuela for 2 years in the early 2000's. There were stores there that had a large board with a bunch of different brushes attached. You found the one you wanted and went to the bin where it was located. I have never seen this in the US but it was nice.

Recently I repaired a motor on an old obsolete boat windlass. Internet search revealed that it was the same motor as a Lucas MG starter motor. I ordered the brushes for the MG and they fit perfectly. Bottom line, there may be more than one way to skin a cat. Funny side note, I ordered 4 brushes and got 24 for less than $20. Since the last set lasted 30 years I am set for way past my lifetime.

 

[hindsight2020]

OP,

Got the update today. Electrical. Gear up-side relay bad. We don't know for sure, but they could be original equipment date (tee hee). Told the IA to just go ahead and fetch a second one and replace the down-side relay too while we're at it, given their presumed age and how cheap they are compared to the powerpack. He jumpered the Up-relay and the gear worked up and down normally, so we got it isolated to the one relay, but what the heck. I still have the backup system installed, so those switches checked out all good as well., as did the squat of course. Cheap failure all in all. 45ish bucks a piece before shipping. Easy peasy.

 

[Morgan3820]

OP,

Got the update today. Electrical. Gear up-side relay bad. We don't know for sure, but they could be original equipment date (tee hee). Told the IA to just go ahead and fetch a second one and replace the down-side relay too while we're at it, given their presumed age and how cheap they are compared to the powerpack. He jumpered the Up-relay and the gear worked up and down normally, so we got it isolated to the one relay, but what the heck. I still have the backup system installed, so those switches checked out all good as well., as did the squat of course. Cheap failure all in all. 45ish bucks a piece before shipping. Easy peasy.

I replace these two relays about a month ago just because they looked original. And as you said it was cheap. Easy Peezy. I’m trying to be preemptive in my maintenance because it’s a lot cheaper to replace it at home then on the road. I also replaced my inner tubes just because.

 

[Bell206]

I have never seen this in the US but it was nice.

Used to be you had to dig through old, dusty catalogs found at the local starter/generator/alternator shops. Now they're online. Finding the right set of brushes for anything got a lot easier. Here's one option: https://www.helwigcarbon.com/produc...MImN7gps33-wIV3BXUAR0-OQn8EAAYBCAAEgLCAvD_BwE

 

[Rgbeard]

Overhauled power packs are running $3,500-4k, plus or minus.

You got away inexpensively.

 

[Jim K]

I need to put "check landing gear pump brushes"on my list for annual. I have a nasty feeling they're being overlooked like the alternator brushes.

 

[Morgan3820]

You may also want to check the starter solenoid. Ours recently went out. Just stopped working one day. It is another cheap and easy fix that would leave you stranded.

 

[Bell206]

I need to put "check landing gear pump brushes"on my list for annual.

One alternative to just adding things to your annual list, is to use the OEM inspection criteria for one annual or simply a 100 hour, provided your APIA is up for it. As mentioned earlier, it would have addressed these brushes along with a number of other items that probably should be looked as well. I did this with my owner-assist customers at times along with recommending this option to owners of "new" aircraft to get a solid foundation of the aircraft condition. However, keep in mind using the OEM list can lead to increased costs and other surprises which unfortunately keeps some from going this route.

 

[Jim K]

One alternative to just adding things to your annual list, is to use the OEM inspection criteria for one annual or simply a 100 hour, provided your APIA is up for it. As mentioned earlier, it would have addressed these brushes along with a number of other items that probably should be looked as well. I did this with my owner-assist customers at times along with recommending this option to owners of "new" aircraft to get a solid foundation of the aircraft condition. However, keep in mind using the OEM list can lead to increased costs and other surprises which unfortunately keeps some from going this route.

So when the alternator brushes went out, I questioned as to why they weren't checked at annual. The answer was that they replace them on a 500 hr interval on the planes they take care of, and didn't think to do it as mine was at something like 800. It's possible he did check the pump when I had landing gear issues a while back, but I should probably ask. It's another one of those "don't know what I don't know" things. He writes pretty thorough log entries, so that would be the first place to check.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I need to put "check landing gear pump brushes"on my list for annual. I have a nasty feeling they're being overlooked like the alternator brushes.

And like the magnetos and the vacuum pump...

 

[Dan Thomas]

You may also want to check the starter solenoid. Ours recently went out. Just stopped working one day. It is another cheap and easy fix that would leave you stranded.

The master solenoid, too. It feeds everything including the starter. They get old. Their contacts oxidize. Not so much arcing damage as with the starter contactor, but they still cause people to replace starters and batteries and battery cables and all sorts of stuff, sometimes even the alternator, before someone finally wises up and replaces that inexpensive contactor.

 

[Bell206]

He writes pretty thorough log entries, so that would be the first place to check.

The key isn't so much the log entry as it is what annual inspection checklist he uses per 43.15. In general, it falls to the APIA to select that checklist, however the owner can request which one to use. As mentioned, if you want to go top shelf, use the OEM annual insp procedure plus perform an OEM service letter and service bulletin review. Unfortunately, most owners won't go that route due to cost. Performing an annual in this manner once every 5-7 years tends to keep the surprises to a minimum.

 

[Morgan3820]

The master solenoid, too. It feeds everything including the starter. They get old. Their contacts oxidize. Not so much arcing damage as with the starter contactor, but they still cause people to replace starters and batteries and battery cables and all sorts of stuff, sometimes even the alternator, before someone finally wises up and replaces that inexpensive contactor.

https://skygeek.com/eaton-aerospace-6041h105-relay-12v-1-15-electromagnetic.html
a little more expensive at $365

 

[Dan Thomas]

https://skygeek.com/eaton-aerospace-6041h105-relay-12v-1-15-electromagnetic.html
a little more expensive at $365

As per the Piper Arrow parts catalog, the master solenoid is 484 373: https://www.univair.com/piper/parts/484-373-piper-power-relay/
$42.20.

As per the 1974-196 Cessna 182 parts catalog, master solenoid (contactor) part number S1579-2, PMA by SkyTek, p/n STS-M12: http://www.vankind.org/Solenoids.htm
$69. And it fits a wide variety of Cessna singles.

Part numbers matter. And so does who sells it. What aircraft does that one you posted fit?

 

[Morgan3820]

As per the Piper Arrow parts catalog, the master solenoid is 484 373: https://www.univair.com/piper/parts/484-373-piper-power-relay/
$42.20.

As per the 1974-196 Cessna 182 parts catalog, master solenoid (contactor) part number S1579-2, PMA by SkyTek, p/n STS-M12: http://www.vankind.org/Solenoids.htm
$69. And it fits a wide variety of Cessna singles.

Part numbers matter. And so does who sells it. What aircraft does that one you posted fit?

I’ve had a warrior and an arrow, and that is not what the master solenoid looks like. It is what the relays for the landing gear look like. As there are two contactor connections versus the one for the starter solenoid as it is grounded out on the firewall.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Oops. I looked up the external power solenoid instead of the master. Yup, you are right: $365. Ridiculous.

 

[Morgan3820]

Oops. I looked up the external power solenoid instead of the master. Yup, you are right: $365. Ridiculous.

Yes, but not as ridiculous as $800 for the hydraulic pressure switch.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

https://skygeek.com/eaton-aerospace-6041h105-relay-12v-1-15-electromagnetic.html
a little more expensive at $365

Never buy from Skygeek. Buy through a Piper dealer. Has always been the cheapest price for me.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Yes, but not as ridiculous as $800 for the hydraulic pressure switch.

I remember a price like that for the pressure switch on the powerpack in the R182, too.

 

[hindsight2020]

Overhauled power packs are running $3,500-4k, plus or minus.

Highway robbery. A 143% increase from my 2017 data point. That's 16% YoY annualized increase for six years straight.


---------brk brk---------------------



Here's some interesting reading I found on the google-fu regarding this particular issue. This is not indicative to me of a thriving hobby. But I know much of the counter-push against critics of the status quo predictably defaults to classist/socioeconomics aspersions that effectively revolve around "don't like it? Leave!". For the record I can afford it, I just disagree with it in principle. So I'll digress on that for the sake of brevity and duplicity.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

So I gotta ask...

What if someone teardowns one of these perfectly functioning motors and rebuilds an exact replica and sells them for a modest $2000 brand new. Not built with recycled parts that are hanging on by the minimum operating standards, but with actual brand new parts and built to the original specs.

Not saying I'm going to do that (to be clear: I would not do that), but I have to imagine at some point some enterprising individual is going to start selling discount parts with "plausible deniability" about their origins as part of the package.

 

[TCABM]

…Powerpack_p_177.html']Here's some interesting reading[/URL] I found on the google-fu regarding this particular issue. This is not indicative to me of a thriving hobby. …

Not unlike ruddervator skins

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

What if someone teardowns one of these perfectly functioning motors and rebuilds an exact replica and sells them for a modest $2000 brand new. Not built with recycled parts that are hanging on by the minimum operating standards, but with actual brand new parts and built to the original specs.

Just for laughs, ask your maint guy the cost to replace the little stall warning switch on your wing. Just the part - not even the labor.

Most likely squat switch not closing as the weight comes off the gear,

I had that once right after maint work. The squat switch was obviously old and apparently ready to go. During unrelated maint work, the switch got bumped or something and that was it. After takeoff, I flipped the switch to retract the gear and nothing. Good reason to always do a test flight after maint with no passengers to make sure nothing obvious (in a simple test flight) was broken during unrelated maint work.

if one of the green is not working, pull the bulbs out and swap to another to check for a dead bulb, check panel lights are off (they dim the landing gear lights substantially)

I was concerned both about a typical bulb burning out as well as the very dim three green gear lights during daytime when the nav lights are on. I have LED nav lights so I just run with the nav lights on all the time whether day or night. I replaced the three green gear lights with led bulbs and it solved both concerns for me. The led bulbs are not likely to burn out during my period of ownership and the led gear lights are much brighter during daylight when the nav lights are on and very easy to see now. Prior to the bulb swap, I did have a minor concern of blinding LED gear lights at night but that actually turned out to be perfectly fine and a non-issue.

 

[Bell206]

and rebuilds an exact replica and sells them for a modest $2000 brand new.

Anytime you produce, market, and/or sell parts for a type certificated aircraft you enter into a different set of rules that go beyond just FAA requirements. So without a STC/PMA approval it’s a no-go. However, there is nothing preventing you from altering your own aircraft is the same manner. For example, the pump shown above is a prime example. While it doesn’t fit the definition of an owner-produced part per Part 21 as mentioned in the article, it can be legally installed in your aircraft provided you follow the appropriate process.

some enterprising individual is going to start selling discount parts with "plausible deniability" about their origins as part of the package.

FYI: there is no “plausible deniability” when producing and installing parts on a TC’d aircraft. Someone is ultimately held accountable. The fact no one has taken either the pump shown above or a different option to the next level of approval points to one familiar reason with the private GA side—no viable market to sell it.

 

[mondtster]

What pump is being installed on current production Arrows? I’d think that would be the easiest place to start.

 

[Rgbeard]

There’s a power pack at less than half the price. Of course, you would only install it for maintenance purposes, and to do gear swing tests. You would certainly never fly with this installed in the airplane.

https://www.razor22magnum.com/Pump Page1.htm

 

[Bell206]

You would certainly never fly with this installed in the airplane.

FYI: its the same pump mentioned in Post 62. And yes you could install it and fly it legally with proper paperwork. However, there is no such thing as "owner supplied part" which is used in both links.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

However, there is no such thing as "owner supplied part" which is used in both links.

My lack of knowledge on this subject is alarming.
I could be looking at the totally wrong FAR (below). But would "owner supplied part" be the section a-5 of this? Or is that more accurately described as an "owner produced part"?

And I'm probably totally misinterpreting, but according to this does it mean that I could fashion my own uncertified component and have it installed it into the plane even if my aircraft is certified? B/c that feels like I'm reading it wrong...

... and apologies in advance if we're all now dumber from having read my ignorant questions here ... Up until now I've pretty much just relied on the A&Ps to tell me what my options are for repair/replacement.



Edit: clarification about my interpretation

 

[Bell206]

Or is that more accurately described as an "owner produced part"?

Owner produced part is the proper term as you are considered to be manufacturing the part. This is why off-the-shelf or purchased parts do not qualify, i.e., "supplied parts." There are several threads on PoA that get into this topic in more detail.

does it mean that I could fashion my own uncertified component

Except that the part is not uncertified but a certified part per Part 21. Big difference. This rule has been around for ages and is more utilized at the Part 135/121 levels but is equally applicable to small Part 91 private aircraft. However, there are specific requirements for the part to be approved. The following link is probably the best article out there on this subject and will give you more insight.
https://150cessna.tripod.com/obrienonownermadeparts.html

 

[Rgbeard]

FYI: its the same pump mentioned in Post 62. And yes you could install it and fly it legally with proper paperwork. However, there is no such thing as "owner supplied part" which is used in both links.

Sorry about the duplication.

I'm traveling for the holidays with family, and using my iPhone for a lot of stuff. Doing that isn't the best in assuring I don't dupe a post.

 

[Datadriver]

After takeoff when I pull the gear up normally I can feel the retract/extend in the pedals as soon as I pull the lever, and it's usually got a characteristic sound I can hear in the headset, too. Today after takeoff there was nothing. No gear-in-transit light, no pedal feeling, no sound, nothing. Gear stayed extended, so I confirmed with tower my gear was actually down and then landed.

Checked all the breakers, visually inspected around the gear to see if anything appeared out of place but came up empty. Everything looks normal. The fact that it didn't even try to retract the gear and just stayed 3 in the green makes me think there must be an obvious culprit that prevents it from even attempting to retract. Squat switch stuck on? Hydraulic system component not working?

Any thoughts on likely causes? Or any add'l information I can provide to help diagnose? Never had this before.

Wondering what kind of AMU this'll be, as I'm guessing xmas came early for my A&P.

Tom, does this Arrow have the external pitot mast on the pilot side that feeds airspeed info to the gear system? If so and IF it thought you were flying too slow it won't let you retract the gear. You can work around the issue by using the override switch, which puts the system in a "up means up and down means down" mode.

 

[hindsight2020]

OP,

Got the update today. Electrical. Gear up-side relay bad. We don't know for sure, but they could be original equipment date (tee hee). Told the IA to just go ahead and fetch a second one and replace the down-side relay too while we're at it, given their presumed age and how cheap they are compared to the powerpack. He jumpered the Up-relay and the gear worked up and down normally, so we got it isolated to the one relay, but what the heck. I still have the backup system installed, so those switches checked out all good as well., as did the squat of course. Cheap failure all in all. 45ish bucks a piece before shipping. Easy peasy.

LOL per usual, that didn't age well...

First, homeboy quoted me the non-fAc-BuILT price. Ended up being $120 for a $20 relay, and they sent the wrong one for the battery contactor. I was under the impression there were two for the gear (up and down). So perhaps some miscommunication there.

At any rate, relay replaced and he (I have not been present for the gear swings) certifies the gear swings on the ground. Well, test flight unsuccessful, same symptom: three green, no pump electrification with or without the override engaged, at any airspeed I cared to speed up to before quickly giving up and parking it back.

So now I'm done with the parts+labor sweepstakes until we get to the root cause, because there's no reason he can swing it on the ground but I can't do it in the air using the same mechanism.

So what's left. Finnicky gear selector switch? Sticky left main strut? Air-misaligning the squat switch, chafed wire contorting just right to break circuit in flight? The enigma continues. Consideration has been given to removing the backup extender on my part. I was quickly disavowed of that notion when I went to price the kit plus labor.

Will update for future reader reference as I find out the root cause.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

LOL per usual, that didn't age well...

First, homeboy quoted me the non-fAc-BuILT price. Ended up being $120 for a $20 relay, and they sent the wrong one for the battery contactor. I was under the impression there were two for the gear (up and down). So perhaps some miscommunication there.

At any rate, relay replaced and he (I have not been present for the gear swings) certifies the gear swings on the ground. Well, test flight unsuccessful, same symptom: three green, no pump electrification with or without the override engaged, at any airspeed I cared to speed up to before quickly giving up and parking it back.

So now I'm done with the parts+labor sweepstakes until we get to the root cause, because there's no reason he can swing it on the ground but I can't do it in the air using the same mechanism.

So what's left. Finnicky gear selector switch? Sticky left main strut? Air-misaligning the squat switch, chafed wire contorting just right to break circuit in flight? The enigma continues. Consideration has been given to removing the backup extender on my part. I was quickly disavowed of that notion when I went to price the kit plus labor.

Will update for future reader reference as I find out the root cause.

Ouch... That sucks! When you say no electrification to the pump - are you gauging that by seeing the "gear in transit" light not go on? The ammeter not spike when you push for gear up? Or is there another way you can determine in air that the pump isn't even attempting to work?

 

[hindsight2020]

Ouch... That sucks! When you say no electrification to the pump - are you gauging that by seeing the "gear in transit" light not go on? The ammeter not spike when you push for gear up? Or is there another way you can determine in air that the pump isn't even attempting to work?

I have a dedicated electronic combined voltmeter/ammeter display in the cockpit, with charging/discharging directional indicators included. So I can tell to 0.1a threshold what is or isn't being electrified through the battery bus (as installed). It's pretty nifty, plus the gear pump is the biggest item second to the starter. It's incredibly self-evident when the pump is not electrifying. My amps generally jump in excess of 30 amps during pump operation, plus momentary clicking of electrical lighting at times. There's even auditory cues that are readily present. It's really obvious after you've flown this sardine can for a decade plus

 

[Dan Thomas]

Way back in Post #3 I said this:

Some troubleshooting by someone who knows what they're doing is the way to get it fixed most economically. Don't let them just start replacing stuff until it works.

This is the wiring diagram for the later PA-28Rs:



Two things that could keep the system dead in flight:

-The squat switch. Is the airflow doing something to it or its wiring? Is it all gummed up inside so that in the warm shop it works, but out in the cold air the oil/grease/crud hardens and disables it?

-The automatic extender pressure switch. Is it getting proper pitot and static pressures so that the diaphragm moves enough to close the switch? Or does it leak or is it sticky? Is its microswitch gummed up? Was the gear tested on the jacks with a pitot-static tester connected to see if the gear retracts above the auto-dump airspeed, or did someone just block the switch closed for the swings?

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

I have a dedicated electronic combined voltmeter/ammeter display in the cockpit, with charging/discharging directional indicators included. So I can tell to 0.1a threshold what is or isn't being electrified through the battery bus (as installed). It's pretty nifty, plus the gear pump is the biggest item second to the starter. It's incredibly self-evident when the pump is not electrifying. My amps generally jump in excess of 30 amps during pump operation, plus momentary clicking of electrical lighting at times. There's even auditory cues that are readily present. It's really obvious after you've flown this sardine can for a decade plus

While I don't have the nifty display that you do, I do have Mark-1 eyes and ears, and I hear you on the auditory cues and lighting. I can always hear a notable crackling/spike sound when I first trigger the gear pump. When I first bought the plane it worried me that I had a bad electrical system b/c I could hear that, and then I just grew to accept it as part of a 50 year old plane. When I was having my gear problem it was also one of the key hints that I had that my motor wasn't even attempting to retract the gear, because I didn't get that audible crackle I was so accustomed to.

TBH I've never watched the ammeter during normal gear operation (I did watch it when trying to diagnose why it wouldn't come up). During normal operation when I'm retracting the gear I'm usually so focused on continuing to take off I'd have to make a very active effort to peek at it

 

[hindsight2020]

TBH I've never watched the ammeter during normal gear operation (I did watch it when trying to diagnose why it wouldn't come up). During normal operation when I'm retracting the gear I'm usually so focused on continuing to take off I'd have to make a very active effort to peak at the ammeter

Indeed. I hear ya. I remember being there myself as a young guy. All #sses and elbows behind that peculiarly avgas smelling 152 cockpit, trying to shack my first 45 degree steep turn and getting all airsick afterwards. Your brain adapts until: 1)you get better, 2) you die, 3) the service attrits you before you do so. Not wanting to die tends to create an incredible motivator to get better. Not everybody responds appropriately to that bargain, good bad or indifferent.

As a result of so much baptism by fire, I'm somewhat maladapted to cat A flying. You have to understand that to me, the entirety of life outside of the work plane (cat E, single pilot, non-AP equipped), to include flying the arrow, is like watching a youtube video at 0.25x. I couldn't hit a slowball if you gave me two bats and I threw both at it. Want me to bring the Shuttle down from orbit? I'm your Huckleberry.

True story. The DPE at the end of my ATP checkride gave me a single, one, debrief item of note, for the entire 4 hour ordeal plus ground eval.
DPE: "You taxi too fast..."
Me: "I do?"....*squint at his face in slo mo*


Time dilation, it's a real condition. maybe I'll disclose it when I have to start filling out 8500s for money again lol

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Indeed. I hear ya. I remember being there myself as a young guy. All #sses and elbows behind that peculiarly avgas smelling 152 cockpit, trying to shack my first 45 degree steep turn and getting all airsick afterwards. Your brain adapts until: 1)you get better, 2) you die, 3) the service attrits you before you do so. Not wanting to die tends to create an incredible motivator to get better. Not everybody responds appropriately to that bargain, good bad or indifferent.

As a result of so much baptism by fire, I'm somewhat maladapted to cat A flying. You have to understand that to me, the entirety of life outside of the work plane (cat E, single pilot, non-AP equipped), to include flying the arrow, is like watching a youtube video at 0.25x. I couldn't hit a slowball if you gave me two bats and I threw both at it. Want me to bring the Shuttle down from orbit? I'm your Huckleberry.

True story. The DPE at the end of my ATP checkride gave me a single, one, debrief item of note, for the entire 4 hour ordeal plus ground eval.
DPE: "You taxi too fast..."
Me: "I do?"....*squint at his face in slo mo*


Time dilation, it's a real condition. maybe I'll disclose it when I have to start filling out 8500s for money again lol

You ever consider getting an STC for afterburners to bring the arrow more into your comfort zone?

I trained in an LSA that doesn't stall until about 43mph. So... When I moved up to flying the arrow I felt like I was traveling so fast I might morph into a tachyon traveling backwards in time. Sounds like you experienced the reverse transformation!