I sure hope so. I recently purchased an airplane with 1980s avionics that I would like to upgrade with a GPSNAVCOM, ADS-B in/out, GPSS and maybe an electonic AHRS. I just saw the article in AOPA in regards to TSO requirements changing for certified aircraft. For example a reasonably priced ($2K) Garmin G5 can now be installed in a certified airplane. I wonder if items like the Aspen 1000 will come down in price. I may hold off for a year or two to see what happens on pricing. Anybody seeing new reasonably priced avionics in the pipeline?
Are we going to see significant cost reductions in Avionics?
- Thread starter Baron62
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there are some who think that tso ed radio/antenna not necessary in a aircraft flown part 91. and there are even more who think it is absolutely true for aircraft certified under CAR3. the most used example is the king kx 170.kx170b i think ,,were many thousands were installed and it is not tso d . would love to really nail this down.
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bnt83
Final Approach
Everyone wants a WAAS/LPV GPS navigator, they aren't going to budge in price. They will all remain TSOed and installed in everything from a Vans RV to Cessna jets.
Everyone wants a full featured new autopilot, these MIGHT, be several thousand less than typical system pricing when the new STCs come out for the experimental ones. I'd bet they will still be out of reach by many. The Garmin one is about $5,000 in just hardware, STC would jack up the price. The Trio Pro Pilot is 2 axis and about $3,000 and altitude hold add on is another $1,700.
G3X STC, ha! There is no way they would want to compete with themselves on the GX000 suites. The ONLY way they would do that is if Dynon had an STC for their Skyview Touch or AF series.
I think "dealer install" would price a lot of people out due to labor.
My airplane would take some significant structural work to make any of those large screen avionics fit. This video is a taste of what is involved with something like a glass panel, GPS, autopilot. You wouldn't necessarily be redoing the whole breaker & switches panel tho.
Everyone wants a full featured new autopilot, these MIGHT, be several thousand less than typical system pricing when the new STCs come out for the experimental ones. I'd bet they will still be out of reach by many. The Garmin one is about $5,000 in just hardware, STC would jack up the price. The Trio Pro Pilot is 2 axis and about $3,000 and altitude hold add on is another $1,700.
G3X STC, ha! There is no way they would want to compete with themselves on the GX000 suites. The ONLY way they would do that is if Dynon had an STC for their Skyview Touch or AF series.
I think "dealer install" would price a lot of people out due to labor.
My airplane would take some significant structural work to make any of those large screen avionics fit. This video is a taste of what is involved with something like a glass panel, GPS, autopilot. You wouldn't necessarily be redoing the whole breaker & switches panel tho.
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We are down to 3-5k on complying with the ADS-B mandate. Price depends on whether you have a WAAS GPS already installed in the plane. We are also going to have to get new technology ELT's. Certified autopilots are ridiculously expensive. Problem with most of this stuff is that we dont really make enough of it to get to economy of scale. Electronics, if enough are made, ares really pretty inexpensive. If you are concerned about cost, dont get the subscriptions. You can fly an ILS or VOR approach without any database updates and use a VFR handheld to navigate between airports. All in all, not bad.
weirdjim
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weirdjim
We sort of solved this problem 43 years ago and are slowly rebuilding with all the "new stuff". Give us a year or two.
Jim
Jim
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
Maybe I'm alone on this but I think the Garmin G5 for 2000 is one of the best deals in aviation/avionics I've seen in a long time (maybe ever). Either that or I'm missing something. To be able to replace your vacuum attitude indicator with this, keep your vacuum driven as a backup and have backups for your airspeed and altimeter all for 2000....I'll take it...when I buy my plane of course. I think the TSO requirements changing for certified airplanes will drive prices down.
Challenged
Pattern Altitude
I've been seriously considering biting the bullet and getting the Dynon D10A, it was just approved for my Sierra.
bnt83
Final Approach
I think its a decent deal too.
Read the STC install manual for it if you haven't already. There are a lot of optional things that you may or may not want to get.
http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-...~/media/47a3336899074e579e9de53afd8e7ebc.ashx
Challenged
Pattern Altitude
Thanks for the link to the installation manual; much appreciated.
arkvet
Line Up and Wait
Not alone at all. As a matter of fact my Saratoga with all vacuum gauges will be going to the shop in just a few weeks to have this exact thing done. I had an old RC Allen electronic backup AI that was inop when I bought the plane more than a year ago. I looked into having the RC Allen AI rebuilt for a backup and it was going to be at least $800... for a 20+ year old electric AI! Well, since I had the extra hole for the backup AI I'm just going to move my vacuum AI down to the backup spot and install the G5 front and center. AP still has the vacuum AI it needs to operate.
I'm super excited about this upgrade and am hoping it suffices my glass panel desires for a while until we see what happens with the remainder of the glass panel market / TSO stuff. I know it'll be a great improvement as I work on my IFR rating.
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
That's exactly my plan given the planes I'm looking at. Give us a follow up after you've flown with the new setup and let us know what you think.
I'm going to float the idea to the place I rent from. Considering the Saratoga is a 200K+ plane I'm hoping they will do it. I've got over 1500 hrs flying with no back up electric AI but find myself in today's world (considering the availability of the new technology) always wishing it was in the panel when I'm IMC.
Another reason for buying vs renting.
forsonsinc
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- I'm not that old, but some of you have seen similar situations in the past, dme,adf,etc....
- What happened then?
Ravioli
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IF you've got space get the D-100 instead. All of the info in 7 inch display. But if panel space is tight than the D10A wins.
I have no actual info but I suspect using Dynon servos on the D series will happen before Garmin servos on the G5.
The G5 installation manual states that the G5 "cannot replace a primary attitude indicator that includes a flight director or is part of an autopilot system (an existing attitude indicator in the primary location that is part of an autopilot but without flight director may be moved to the rate of turn indicator location and a G5 installed in the primary location)..."
arkvet
Line Up and Wait
My G5 will replace nothing. Current vacuum AI going to an empty slot and G5 to primary "location". Maybe someday the G5 HSI capabilities will be "unlocked" for the certified market before my traditional electric HSI decides to fail and I can just install a 2nd one.
Fortunately my panel has been pretty healthy so I've got plenty of time to wait and see.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Time will tell. Who knows what effect impeding economic policies will have on the cost of things
Ryan F.
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Ryan Ferguson 1974
That was my assessment. I placed an order for one almost immediately after the STC version was announced. It's a no-brainer. Huge upgrade in safety and reliability for not much more than the cost of a mechanical ADI. Plus a lot of other nice features as a bonus.
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weirdjim
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At the risk of starting a holy war, so far as I know, there is NO REQUIREMENT for a TSO'd instrument anywhere in the airplane. The ONLY argument you might make is for transponders/altitude encoders, but if you look at the FAR, you will see that these pieces must MEET the requirements, not be TSO'd in an of themselves. Anywhere else in the airplane you are just fooling yourself if you think that you need TSOd equipment for standard airworthiness (as opposed to experimental) aircraft. The word "certified" should be restricted to USPO mail.
JIm
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airdale
All vendors are doing basically the same thing: Trying to maximize the gross margin dollars that come in the door. That can happen with high prices and lower volume or with lower prices and higher volume. Pricing also depends on competition. A high price may drive volume too low. A low price may be unnecessary because the market is willing to pay more. This is basic (& oversimplified) microeconomics.
That said, price is limited on the low side by manufacturing cost and overheads. A price that just covers these things may well not be a price that the manufacturer will accept. End of product line. Another factor, though, is development cost --- specifically TSO cost. Someone who must pay high development cost will need to recover this cost in gross margin or he may be out of business."Sunk costs" are bills that have already been paid, like the TSO cost on an existing product. A manufacturer may choose to turn a blind eye to sunk costs in order to compete successfully with someone who is now selling a competing product without having to incur these costs.
The short version of this is that prices will depend far more on competition in the marketplace than they will on technical arguments or technical trends.
ADS-B is kind of a special case because it is a market that falls off a cliff in 2021. Price is likely to be chaotic as marginal suppliers struggle to survive, cutting prices, and industry capacity is limited by suppliers' unwillingness to invest in a dying market, tending to raise prices. Things will be very unpredictable. The best prices will probably come from suppliers who will die from falling off the cliff, leaving customers without warranties and without factory support for future repairs.
That said, price is limited on the low side by manufacturing cost and overheads. A price that just covers these things may well not be a price that the manufacturer will accept. End of product line. Another factor, though, is development cost --- specifically TSO cost. Someone who must pay high development cost will need to recover this cost in gross margin or he may be out of business."Sunk costs" are bills that have already been paid, like the TSO cost on an existing product. A manufacturer may choose to turn a blind eye to sunk costs in order to compete successfully with someone who is now selling a competing product without having to incur these costs.
The short version of this is that prices will depend far more on competition in the marketplace than they will on technical arguments or technical trends.
ADS-B is kind of a special case because it is a market that falls off a cliff in 2021. Price is likely to be chaotic as marginal suppliers struggle to survive, cutting prices, and industry capacity is limited by suppliers' unwillingness to invest in a dying market, tending to raise prices. Things will be very unpredictable. The best prices will probably come from suppliers who will die from falling off the cliff, leaving customers without warranties and without factory support for future repairs.