Are there pilots who've never used paper maps?

I would say 90% of pilots in training today would cancel their flight if their iPad was dead and all they had was a paper map to reference. The need the moving map because they have only known it that way.
 
Warlock said:
When I tell my kid I flew in Germany with 1:50,000 terrain maps for the whole country, made into map books per region…also posted all the wire hazards and towers by hand she just rolls her eyes and laughs…Children of the magenta line have no clue how often we were lost…and won’t ever admit that part…but it is a skill (using a map) that is lost on new pilots.
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Children of the magenta line also have no clue how often they’re lost. I’d rather be lost and know it than lost and not know it.
 
NJP_MAN said:
I would say 90% of pilots in training today would cancel their flight if their iPad was dead and all they had was a paper map to reference. The need the moving map because they have only known it that way.
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Depending on where, how, and what I was flying, I might and i learned and flew with paper for 20 years. Thats because I have no idea where to get a paper chart on short notice. I’d have to find a flight school and hope they had some to spare.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Depending on where, how, and what I was flying, I might and i learned and flew with paper for 20 years. Thats because I have no idea where to get a paper chart on short notice. I’d have to find a flight school and hope they had some to spare.
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Nowadays you can just download the chart from the FAA website and print out just the portion(s) you need.
 
Dana said:
Nowadays you can just download the chart from the FAA website and print out just the portion(s) you need.
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Yeah, but why would I? And using whose printer? I’m assuming I’m at the airport when the problem arises. If I’m at home the day before, I have far better options than a bunch of paper.

Personally, I find “Paper vs Plastic: My Choice is Right: Yours is Wrong “ pretty silly, so I have fun responding to them.
 
When I made my first few long cross countries after 20 years of not flying or flying ultralights, I downloaded and printed charts for my routes and planned it just like I did for my NORDO T-Craft back in the 1980s... and with Avare on both a tablet and my phone, I never even unfolded the charts and never touched the monochrome Garmin 196 that came with the plane. Eventually I stopped bothering with the paper.

But maybe that's why I prefer Avare, as its displayed map is an actual sectional chart rather than the simplified map used by Foreflight or other devices.

Back in the day I always left my expired charts folded and stuffed under the seat cushion, that was my backup if I forgot or lost a chart.
 
Dana said:
But maybe that's why I prefer Avare, as its displayed map is an actual sectional chart rather than the simplified map used by Foreflight or other devices
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What makes you think that? These are captures from Foreflight, FlyQ, and FltPlan Go! I could add Garmin Pilot, Stratus Insight, IFly, DroidEFB, and others, Foreflight was using them back when I first subscribed (13 years ago today!)

I’m not aware of an EFB on iOS, Android, or Windows used in the US in which the FAA’S Sectionals is not an option. It’s even available in some panel MFDs.

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midlifeflyer said:
What makes you think that? These are captures from Foreflight, FlyQ, and FltPlan Go! I could add Garmin Pilot, Stratus Insight, IFly, DroidEFB, and others, Foreflight was using them back when I first subscribed (13 years ago today!)

I’m not aware of an EFB on iOS, Android, or Windows used in the US in which the FAA’S Sectionals is not an option. It’s even available in some panel MFDs.

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I stand corrected; I didn't know that. Usually when people post screen captures from FF or other apps they show the simplified view (which Avare doesn't have), so I [apparently incorrectly] assumed at was all there was.
 
This recent discussion amuses me. So you're at the airport and your iPad dies. Oh, go get a paper chart. Really? Where? So, yes, of course some pilots might cancel their flight if their iPad died - because if it did, they might not have, or be able to get, paper charts. But that's pretty much the same result as if you forgot, or lost, your paper chart.

But not all of them would cancel. Why? Well, many have the same EFB app on their phone. Alternately, most IFR GPS units have everything you'd need anyway.

I forgot my iPad one time (oh, the horrors!) on a ~300nm flight. I didn't have any paper charts, but the G1000 in the airplane I was flying was certainly adequate to meet any "all available information" requirements.
 
Dana said:
I stand corrected; I didn't know that. Usually when people post screen captures from FF or other apps they show the simplified view (which Avare doesn't have), so I [apparently incorrectly] assumed at was all there was.
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That's because, to many pilots who use them, what you refer to the "simplified view" is superior to the Sectional. It's really not "simple" at all. It's declutterable, which just means the amount of detail is customizable and increases and decreases with the zoom level. Airspaces are highlighted with touchable pop-up information. Being software generated, rather than mostly static graphic, if you prefer track up, the lettering is always upright no matter which way your direction of flight. It's my preferred view IFR. The Sectional is still my preferred view VFR.

You can be pretty sure that there's nothing in Avare that is not duplicated in a paid app.
 
RussR said:
This recent discussion amuses me. So you're at the airport and your iPad dies. Oh, go get a paper chart. Really? Where? So, yes, of course some pilots might cancel their flight if their iPad died - because if it did, they might not have, or be able to get, paper charts. But that's pretty much the same result as if you forgot, or lost, your paper chart.
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You brought back a memory.

It was not long after I started using Foreflight (13 years ago today). Paper charts were still plentiful. I ran into a pilot with a problem. He was starting a trip and didn't have one of the charts he needed. It was nearing the end of a cycle and both pilot shops at the airport had run out. So I gave him mine. He asked for my address so he could mail it back to me. I told him not to bother. The paper charts I had at the time were my last.
 
I look at the whole paper map vs electronic in the same way I view performance calculations and W&B.

My civilian and military background was all paper in the beginning. In my experience, learning to plan a route on paper with a plotter and E6B gave me a better understanding of magnetic variation deference’s and the effects of winds aloft. Getting in the performance charts and see how the numbers vary with each chart, gave me a better visual understanding of aircraft performance limitations. Manually calculating a W&B gave me a much clearer picture of how weight and its position can affect performance.

Today, all that stuff is electronic. Speeds up time and that’s a good thing. What I’m afraid of is, those that have “grown up” on this digital media vs manual calculations, don’t truly understand their aircraft. I’ve flown with young aviators in the Army who got training on paper but flushed all that knowledge. It’s obvious when you fly with them because they can’t explain the numbers on their knee boards. In some cases, they were so used to the aircraft giving them what they want from it, they didn’t even know they were operating outside its limits. They would go through the motions without really understanding what they were doing.
 
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This sounds a lot like the discussion in engineering offices about us old guys who started out on the drafting board vs. the kids who used CAD from day one.

Now, where's my eraser shield?
 
Dana said:
This sounds a lot like the discussion in engineering offices about us old guys who started out on the drafting board vs. the kids who used CAD from day one.

Now, where's my eraser shield?
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it’s funny. That often seems to be the way it shakes out, but I don’t think It really have that much to do with age.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Depending on where, how, and what I was flying, I might and i learned and flew with paper for 20 years. Thats because I have no idea where to get a paper chart on short notice. I’d have to find a flight school and hope they had some to spare.
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If you had no chart it's ok to cancel. My scenario has the genZ pilot with any combination of TACs and sectionals and they still wouldn't fly.
 
NJP_MAN said:
If you had no chart it's ok to cancel. My scenario has the genZ pilot with any combination of TACs and sectionals and they still wouldn't fly.
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Why would your scenario's hypothetical GenZ pilot who has always used an EFB even have any combination of paper TACs and sectionals? Kind of strikes me as continuing the rant against the next generation originally attributed to Socrates.

How about this scenario for contrast? Quoting from yours (changes in italics)

I would say 90% of old fart pilots with their heads firmly stuck in the past would cancel their flight if their paper charts fell into a puddle and all they had was an iPad and modern avionics for reference. They need the paper map because they have only known it that way.​
 
midlifeflyer said:
Why would your scenario's hypothetical GenZ pilot who has always used an EFB even have any combination of paper TACs and sectionals? Kind of strikes me as continuing the rant against the next generation originally attributed to Socrates.

How about this scenario for contrast? Quoting from yours (changes in italics)

I would say 90% of old fart pilots with their heads firmly stuck in the past would cancel their flight if their paper charts fell into a puddle and all they had was an iPad and modern avionics for reference. They need the paper map because they have only known it that way.​
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Your scenario is probably equally true. The thread is about flying without paper though. I feel like the old guy would just go flying without the charts. As a matter of fact, I know old guys who can still make a plane go places without moving maps and ipads.
 
NJP_MAN said:
Your scenario is probably equally true. The thread is about flying without paper though. I feel like the old guy would just go flying without the charts.
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No paper charts or EFB? I assume that means no Chart Supplement either. For me, as I indicated earlier, depends on what, where, and how (VFR or IFR) I was flying. Can I meet my FAR 91.103 responsibilities without them?
 
I had a guy (who I'm sure was jerking my chain) ask what a chart was in a meeting yesterday. I told him (and everyone else in the room) that it was a piece of paper, one whose batteries never died and one whose display hybrid never quit, unlike the HP-41CV that I use to this day had done.
 
I’ve only been flying since 2020, but my instructor for PPL required paper for XC planning. Just took my Commercial ride. I asked the examiner if I needed papers or if digital was ok. He said digital was ok, but still made me reference paper sectionals during the oral. (I brought NY and Detroit anyway and he provided DC)
 
Velocity173 said:
I Know the services have gone EFBs but I don’t think they will ever get rid of paper. Especially for VFR nav. Gotta have back ups to fall on. Nav with a 1:50,000 map sux.
;)
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The most valuable thing helo pilots in Vietnam had were 1:100,000 maps. They were extremely hard to get, and when an aircraft commander headed back to the states, he customarily bequeathed his area of operation map set (carefully marked with firebase locations and assembled with clear acetate overlay sheets) to a new a/c in his platoon. I brought a captured weapon home, but left my most valuable possession with someone who needed it much more than I did.
 
Piperonca said:
The most valuable thing helo pilots in Vietnam had were 1:100,000 maps. They were extremely hard to get, and when an aircraft commander headed back to the states, he customarily bequeathed his area of operation map set (carefully marked with firebase locations and assembled with clear acetate overlay sheets) to a new a/c in his platoon. I brought a captured weapon home, but left my most valuable possession with someone who needed it much more than I did.
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Yeah we got used, hand me down 1:100,000s from the 101st prior to going from Kuwait into Iraq. They were almost useless in the south because it’s like sand, and then more sand. When my GPS broke they came in handy though. Once we set up shop, we printed strip maps on Falcon View and ditched our 101st map books.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah we got used, hand me down 1:100,000s from the 101st prior to going from Kuwait into Iraq. They were almost useless in the south because it’s like sand, and then more sand. When my GPS broke they came in handy though. Once we set up shop, we printed strip maps on Falcon View and ditched our 101st map books.
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Try flying in the Gulf of Mexico in 1974 with a paper map (solid blue) marked only with little symbols for dispersed drilling platforms. Out there in the wide open with nothing but a few dots on the horizon. In a Bell 47G4 with a mag compass that was about 45 deg. out. You had to get a gestalt feel for your fuel range and the overall scheme of things. Then you could mentally connect those dots. At least when you labored at 70 kt toward one eventually you would see a number marking on the platform. Better than the sand I would expect, but probably some similarities. Tales from antiquity, lol.
 
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I learned all on paper and I just finished a year ago. The school I went to was old school and wanted everything done on paper. I'm not sure it was a bad idea, but I've also not used really at all since.
 
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