Are there pilots who've never used paper maps?

Pi1otguy

Pi1otguy

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
2,477
Location
Fontana, CA
Display Name
Display name:
Fox McCloud
A few weeks ago I had over of those "oh crap, I'm the old guy" moments when a another club member asked "Have you ever used paper maps before?".

The question was so foreign to me. Are there actually pilots who've only used electronic sectionals? How does one do the whole pilotage and DR stuff with a moving map? What about the handful of times your tablet will fail due to being in direct sunlight too long?
 
It's been a few moons since I used a paper sectional (I have one on board for my area but it's a few days out of date). My iFly 740 has a current sectional displayed on it and is quite easy to read.
 
I'd be quite certain that many of the pilots going through training right now have never used a paper map. So the answer to your question would be "certainly".

The standard answer to your question about iPad overheating is "then I grab my iPhone", or "I look at the panel-mount GPS instead".

I haven't had a Private student for about 5 years. Back then I did make my students use a paper map for initial XC training, but then also introduced the iPad if they had one (which they always did). But 5 years is several generations of CFIs at the busy schools. I can't imagine there's much paper map use at those anymore.
 
Daleandee said:
It's been a few moons since I used a paper sectional (I have one on board for my area but it's a few days out of date). My iFly 740 has a current sectional displayed on it and is quite easy to read.
Click to expand...
Well yea, but surely you've used paper at some point during the student pilot phase? If for no other reason than to satisfy the pilotage task.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Well yea, but surely you've used paper at some point during the student pilot phase? If for no other reason than to satisfy the pilotage task.
Click to expand...

As they say, "back in the day" i.e. when Moses was a basket case ...
 
RussR said:
Even with an iPad, you can turn off ownship position, thereby making it just an electronic presentation of a paper map.
Click to expand...

Same sorta thing when/if the GPS signal drops ...
 
RussR said:
Even with an iPad, you can turn off ownship position, thereby making it just an electronic presentation of a paper map.
Click to expand...
As much as I love paperless world, fat-fingering annotations on a sectional PDF to plan a flight sucks, sucks, and sucks some more. If I'm doing a flight plan manually, give me a paper map.
 
The day before my PPL checkride, I went to the FBO to buy the new edition Sectional (effective the day of checkride). CFI who was working the counter says "oh, you're old school!"

To be fair, the Coast Guard is just now abandoning paper charts in lieu of the much-more-precise and much-more-accurate/up-to-date electronic nav systems. But it's getting hard to teach new Coasties how to use paper when you can't even procure them anymore. I suspect FAA won't be far behind.
 
RussR said:
Even with an iPad, you can turn off ownship position, thereby making it just an electronic presentation of a paper map.
Click to expand...
This is a really good exercise to try, i.e. navigate only using the map.
Turns out it harder to do on an electronic device than a paper map, although an electronic pencil where you can mark the map easily, might help.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Salty said:
As much as I love paperless world, fat-fingering annotations on a sectional PDF to plan a flight sucks, sucks, and sucks some more. If I'm doing a flight plan manually, give me a paper map.
Click to expand...
I agree that marking up annotations on a PDF is definitely more challenging than writing them on a piece of paper. But is that what you're really doing? Does that mean you're downloading the sectional in PDF format, marking it up in Adobe (or something), and then displaying it as a static image on your tablet? That seems excessively complicated and unnecessary compared to any of the EFB options.

We use iPads with Apple Pencils at work. I mark up charts extensively. It works quite well. I imagine if I was a student pilot again, I could mark it up with the same types of checkpoints and such that I did back then.
 
I bought a sectional just for ground school/check ride and perform all my planning on my EFB. Yes, I do know how to read and use a paper chart as I spent many years with paper nautical charts and LORAN and a compass ;). When I last ran boats offshore I almost exclusively was using E-charts on a Lowrance GPS navigator but missed those NOAA paper charts in my hand. I don't think I would miss paper nautical charts now after acclimating to electronics. Nice not to have to worry about a chart being blown off a flybridge.
 
robin ardoin said:
I bought a sectional just for ground school/check ride and perform all my planning on my EFB. Yes, I do know how to read and use a paper chart as I spent many years with paper nautical charts and LORAN and a compass ;). When I last ran boats offshore I almost exclusively was using E-charts on a Lowrance GPS navigator but missed those NOAA paper charts in my hand. I don't think I would miss paper nautical charts now after acclimating to electronics. Nice not to have to worry about a chart being blown off a flybridge.
Click to expand...
Trust me...with ECDIS now, you'd find a paper chart woefully ineffective.
 
RussR said:
I agree that marking up annotations on a PDF is definitely more challenging than writing them on a piece of paper. But is that what you're really doing? Does that mean you're downloading the sectional in PDF format, marking it up in Adobe (or something), and then displaying it as a static image on your tablet? That seems excessively complicated and unnecessary compared to any of the EFB options.

We use iPads with Apple Pencils at work. I mark up charts extensively. It works quite well. I imagine if I was a student pilot again, I could mark it up with the same types of checkpoints and such that I did back then.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with using an EFB to do your initial private pilot flight planning. I think you should do it old school so that you properly understand the factors involved.
 
Charlie Golf said:
If you don't have a sectional, what do you use for a sunscreen while parked? :goofy:
Click to expand...

... and what do you use as a view limiting device if you're .2 hr short of the simulated instrument requirement for your PPL on your last flight with your CFI before the checkride!? Not that I would do that...
 
I will (woefully) admit that a few years ago I was tooling around on forest service roads in the mountains and had a paper (forest service roads) map. I was trying to see where an intersection was and I instinctively pinched and spread my fingers like I was trying to zoom in. I caught myself and couldn't believe what just happened. I folded up the map on the hood of the Jeep and sat on the bumper thinking "What have I become?"
 
RussR said:
I agree that marking up annotations on a PDF is definitely more challenging than writing them on a piece of paper. But is that what you're really doing? Does that mean you're downloading the sectional in PDF format, marking it up in Adobe (or something), and then displaying it as a static image on your tablet? That seems excessively complicated and unnecessary compared to any of the EFB options.

We use iPads with Apple Pencils at work. I mark up charts extensively. It works quite well. I imagine if I was a student pilot again, I could mark it up with the same types of checkpoints and such that I did back then.
Click to expand...

iFly has a feature called "sketch" that can be used in various modes including map marking ...
 
robin ardoin said:
Nice not to have to worry about a chart being blown off a flybridge.
Click to expand...
Or out of an open cockpit.

But I was thinking just this morning, this year I need to do at least one old fashioned paper/pilotage XC. I last did that a few years ago, but back in the day I flew all over the northeast with nothing but a sectional and no electronics of any kind, not even a com radio.
 
I used paper charts for the first 30 or 40 years but I have not touched a paper chart in the last 10.
My biggest gripe about EFBs are that when you pinch the screen to make the picture bigger so you can see the tiny print, the print adjusts itself back to tiny. I hate that.
 
For longer cross countries to somewhere new I sometimes like using paper for planning just for the larger overall view. No pinch and zoom for any moa or restricted areas enroute.

Or maybe it's just nostalgia.
 
Anyone here remember going to the Mobil Oil gas station to get a roadmap before going on a flight.??

And by the way, I never used a road map...
 
CJones said:
I will (woefully) admit that a few years ago I was tooling around on forest service roads in the mountains and had a paper (forest service roads) map. I was trying to see where an intersection was and I instinctively pinched and spread my fingers like I was trying to zoom in. I caught myself and couldn't believe what just happened. I folded up the map on the hood of the Jeep and sat on the bumper thinking "What have I become?"
Click to expand...
"A friend", definitely not me, did the same thing with an old photo album recently.
 
JOhnH said:
My biggest gripe about EFBs are that when you pinch the screen to make the picture bigger so you can see the tiny print, the print adjusts itself back to tiny. I hate that.
Click to expand...
Never having used electronic sectional charts, I have a question related to that…do the charts default to a 500,000:1 scaling on the device, or how easy is it easy to make a wrong distance measurement?

well, I just pulled up forefright and answered my own question. Looks like I won’t be using e-sectionals any time soon.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Never having used electronic sectional charts, I have a question related to that…do the charts default to a 500,000:1 scaling on the device, or how easy is it easy to make a wrong distance measurement?
Click to expand...
On FF on the Ipad, if you touch a spot on the moving map it will tell you the distance and magnetic direction to that point.
You can also use two fingers to touch two separate points to get a distance between them, but the accuracy is dependent on how fat your fingers are.
But of course, it is easy to make a mistake.
 
Zeldman said:
Anyone here remember going to the Mobil Oil gas station to get a roadmap before going on a flight.??

And by the way, I never used a road map...
Click to expand...
I vaguely remember a road atlas. But have never used one.
 
It wouldn’t be a far stretch to imagine those just beginning their flight training aren’t exposed to them. I don’t ever see anyone using them anymore around here.
 
it used to be that most FBO’s had a case full of charts for sale, but I can’t remember the last one I’ve seen.
 
My FBO stocks paper sectional charts. And they sell out each cycle.

I should ask, but I am assuming they are requiring use by students.
 
Just this morning after my swim I was sitting in the steam room talking to the older Indian guy that has the hot Indian wife, and he was telling me how they were planning on driving up the California coast for a vacation, staying at a couple bed and breakfasts as they made their way to Oregon so he could check out a fishing boat he was looking to buy. He mentioned about how he could stop by AAA and pick up a road map so he could scout out places to stay and things to see.

I had to think about it for a minute. I'm like, what? A paper road map? I'm positive I've never used a paper road map since Al Gore invented the Internet. This thread had me thinking, does AAA even make paper maps anymore? I Googled, and they do. I see that Rand McNally still publishes the road atlas.
 
Foreflight is 17 years old now. There might be pilots who have never used paper charts who have had kids that have trained without paper charts at this point.
 
There’s times I really like being able to do map study across a large section of a topo map and that’s best done on paper, but for flying purposes if I can study the route on 27” monitor, that’s more than sufficient.
 
Salty said:
I don't agree with using an EFB to do your initial private pilot flight planning. I think you should do it old school so that you properly understand the factors involved.
Click to expand...
I flew 2200 hours as an NFO with nothing but paper charts and a numbers only INS and eventually a numbers only GPS. That included thousands and thousands of miles on low levels at 480 KTS and 200’. An EFB is a wonder and would have made life a lot easier and allowed me to focus on other things that were going to keep us alive.

At some point a student needs to understand the benefits and pitfalls of the EFB. First X/C paper? Sure. Chart to ground correlation is important but students are being trained to be complete pilots. By the time the time they’re headed to the check ride they should be very familiar with their EFB. Same with geo-referenced approach plates when you move on to an instrument rating. I have not shot an instrument approach since the Navy with a paper plate. The EFB is another part of the scan and needs to be integrated into training.
 
I asked my son who's a new pilot, and no, his total experience with paper charts is helping wrap Christmas presents with them. And a bad scan of one on his written.

It kinda shocked me a bit I admit, but I do feel very strongly about the idea of training how you'll fly. ...and I haven't used paper in a decade so it all makes sense to me now.
 
Pinecone said:
My FBO stocks paper sectional charts. And they sell out each cycle.

I should ask, but I am assuming they are requiring use by students.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good money making tactic. Require something that isn’t necessary for your own monetary gain… imagine that.
 
Pi1otguy said:
A few weeks ago I had over of those "oh crap, I'm the old guy" moments when a another club member asked "Have you ever used paper maps before?".

The question was so foreign to me. Are there actually pilots who've only used electronic sectionals? How does one do the whole pilotage and DR stuff with a moving map? What about the handful of times your tablet will fail due to being in direct sunlight too long?
Click to expand...
When AOPA pushed the FAA to 56 day cycles for sectional charts that was the end for paper in pilot training.
 
not aviation related but it relates to this I think....I was having a conversation with my college freshman son just last night after his first day back at it for the Spring semester and new classes. He needs to by text books for two of them.... I asked paper or digital.... and so we discussed.
I still remember getting great value out of being able to flip back and forth between two pages, and things like figures and illustrations were typically presented better in printed form...but I'll admit to being hard pressed to make a good case for paper, up against the searchability, "copy and paste-ability", and portability of digital
 
there are pluses and minuses to paper and the same goes for digital.

wrt books - I like the tactile feel of reading words printed on paper. and searchability doesn't help much when you haven't read any of the material.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top