Anyone use a Come to you School?

A slight riff on Ryan's quote...

Ryan F. said:
15 hours is a very short period of time in the airplane when it comes to learning how to fly a new to you airplane.
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This week is being spent learning to fly the club's Bonanza V35. All of my prior time was Cessna, with 350 hrs in the Skylane. 6 hours into the Bo, I'm just beginning to get the rhythm of the basics. I anticipate 15 hours, I might be good to go places. But my personal mins are going to be ultra conservative for many hours to come.
 
Ryan F. said:
I'm glad that you are pleased with your outcome. That definitely could not/would not have happened were I a part of that process. 15 hours is a very short period of time in the airplane when it comes to learning how to fly on instruments.
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I just don't see where you waste all that time. Instrument flying is super easy.

AggieMike88 said:
A slight riff on Ryan's quote...

This week is being spent learning to fly the club's Bonanza V35. All of my prior time was Cessna, with 350 hrs in the Skylane. 6 hours into the Bo, I'm just beginning to get the rhythm of the basics. I anticipate 15 hours, I might be good to go places. But my personal mins are going to be ultra conservative for many hours to come.
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The PIC method assumes you own your own airplane. Doing it in a new-to-you plane would be insane.
15 hours is a long time to practice IR syllabus when you already know how to fly your plane with your eyes closed...
 
AggieMike88 said:
This week is being spent learning to fly the club's Bonanza V35. All of my prior time was Cessna, with 350 hrs in the Skylane. 6 hours into the Bo, I'm just beginning to get the rhythm of the basics. I anticipate 15 hours, I might be good to go places. But my personal mins are going to be ultra conservative for many hours to come.
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That was sort of my experience too. I started in a club 172 but then bought a Cardinal with (then) advanced avionics, and those avionics (especially the 480) were completely new to me and to my CFII, so I was basically learning to fly instruments from him but teaching myself the buttonology. That slowed me down tremendously (in addition to work). I could probably have cut my hours toward the rating in half if I had been able to find someone who was familiar with the 480. In fact I'm pretty sure Ron L knows the unit, so PIC would have been a good choice. But I couldn't spare that much time away from work, and frankly I wanted to do it with the local guy because I was getting a club discount on his rate (I didn't manage to sell my share in the club until a few years later).

There isn't a one-size-fits-all solution; everyone's situation is different, and will dictate their choices.
 
I would also like to add, that I would avoid hiring an instructor who is not current/proficient in the operation you intend to do.
If you intend to fly 121/135/91k, don't hire a career CFII who has no recent experience with these operations. It's a massive waste of money.
 
mtuomi said:
I would also like to add, that I would avoid hiring an instructor who is not current/proficient in the operation you intend to do.
If you intend to fly 121/135/91k, don't hire a career CFII who has no recent experience with these operations. It's a massive waste of money.
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So go with the local time builder?
 
I am in the thick of it now. I have over 20 hours of recent dual for my IFR and about 50 total IFR combined and can tell you that it is just starting to feel right and ready. I can’t imagine after the bare minimum 15 going for my checkride and being confident. Maybe on one of my good days I’d pass... but just a few hours ago my CFII mentioned on the go, “it’s good your checkride wasn’t today...”. But just prior to that I was doing great. I’m feeling more
Confident over the past 3 hours of dual and was looking forward to impress on my last 1.5 of checkride prep and go for my ride.
Earning and maintaining IFR certification IMO requires the most respect and responsibility. If taken lightly it will get you and possibly others killed.
I don’t want to pass my checkride on my best day... I want pass my checkride on my worst day.
 
I used PIC and would do it again in a heartbeat.

Not everyone is cut out for accelerated and will succeed...that does not mean that I am somehow better or worse...people just learn differently and function differently under the pressure cooker timeline that is required. You need to be able to dedicate 100% of every moment of that duration for it to be successful.

Yes, they charge a premium and I could have gotten my IFR cheaper somewhere else, but as the saying goes with all things in life...better, cheaper, faster...pick two.
 
mtuomi said:
The PIC method assumes you own your own airplane. Doing it in a new-to-you plane would be insane.
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You are misinterpreting my meaning. I was referring to learning a "new to the pilot airplane" for VFR flight. Not also adding a PIC style instruction course at same time.

And I have no dog in the hunt with or against you.... so I'll step out of the thread and let you bark at someone else.
 
mtuomi said:
I would also like to add, that I would avoid hiring an instructor who is not current/proficient in the operation you intend to do.
If you intend to fly 121/135/91k, don't hire a career CFII who has no recent experience with these operations. It's a massive waste of money.
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I went with the career CFI. It worked for me. To each their own. An ILS is an ILS regardless of what kind of operation you intend to do.
 
You pay a premium for convenience is all I will say on this. When I found out the cost I too scoffed at it and stuck to the traditional method. It cost me right at $2,500.00 total for instructor and gas in the airplane plus the 500 examiner fee. Obviously if I had to rent it would have been much more expensive. These accelerated programs are great, and probably make better pilots than learning over the course of months, but it's also why so many students are drowning with debt before even starting their career.

With all of that said it is very difficult to find an instructor that is both good and has a schedule that cooperates with yours. I was fortunate enough to have an instructor that teaches just out of the good of his heart and not as a career. I also took days off work when he was available to help expedite it a little.
 
mtuomi said:
I\
The PIC method assumes you own your own airplane.
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Actually, it does not. The second lesson (usually done in the afternoon of the first day), involves developing the command-performance settings for the particular aircraft (you have done them already in the simulator at that point).
While most pilots have their own aircraft when they call PIC, it has been done in rentals.
 
These accelerated programs are great, and probably make better pilots than learning over the course of months, but it's also why so many students are drowning with debt before even starting their career.
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PIC really isn't targeted at someone cramming through all the ratings on the way to an imagined career in aviation. The 141 schools do a better job at this. And if you think PIC gouges, you haven't seen a lot of 141 schools (especially the so-called career academies).
 
mtuomi said:
Not being sarcastic. I bet most CFII's in this country would be very happy to teach for $500 a day.
It also sounds excessive, you only need 12-15 hours of instruction for the rating. 30 hours instruction and 30 hours of ground sounds like overkill to me.
That's a lot of money for the rating. I paid about half of that including plane costs.
I strongly disagree with any program that has a set cost that's above the legal minimum required based on "historical averages" or whatever excuses they use to milk more money out of students. Especially if it's an accelerated program. Any average pilot should be able to do it in minimum time required if they don't have long of a gap between lessons. That's the nr 1 reason why it takes longer than minimums.
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PIC has to take a cut, there is some cost of dragging a simulator around, and you have to pay for a good instructor to be away from his/her family for 10 days straight. I'm guessing the instructor gets upper $300's per day which is good but not excessive by any means.

I never used PIC or any of the accelerated ratings. Fortunately I had local access to a flying club with great instructors. However in the last 2 years we are really having a hard time keeping good instructors around and our club has a bit of a wait list for new students. Even some of our long time instructors went to the airlines... one went to a 141 school where they are paying him a boatload of money to teach foreign students.
 
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dell30rb said:
PIC has to take a cut, there is some cost of dragging a simulator around, and you have to pay for a good instructor to be away from his/her family for 10 days straight. I'm guessing the instructor gets upper $300's per day which is good but not excessive by any means.
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When I was doing contract flying for a living it wasn't worth my time to leave the house for less than $1k/day. Yet another example of how hard it is from a financial perspective to keep good instructors out there fighting the good fight. Instructing is rewarding, but not in terms of compensation.
 
MBDiagMan said:
The title is the question. I am frustrated trying to fly with the local instructors. There are a few that are absolutely top notch instructors, but have other commitments or require flying back and forth to another field.

Do any of you have experience with one of the schools that send an instructor and a simulator to you?
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I’m brand new to the forum. I used PIC about 25 years ago! They were great! You have to be prepared to work hard, but the result is worth it!
 
I did PIC after some time flying with my local CFI, mostly to accelerate the process. It was fully worth it.
 
I'm on day 10 with PIC. I lucked out and got an instructor based in my town (HUF) so there was no need ($$$) for accommodations, travel, etc. The only difference to what I was expecting was he only wanted to do half days. That suited me well because his "simulator" was pretty low class. I have a 182 with an Aspen and the only plane he had in his database was a Bonanza. and I couldn't get the hang of it so we did all of it n my 182.

Nice guy and the training has been rewarding. I'm 62 and found the training to sink in (with my old brain!) even though it was pretty fast!

Check-ride coming up Monday.
 
Betmerick said:
I'm on day 10 with PIC. I lucked out and got an instructor based in my town (HUF) so there was no need ($$$) for accommodations, travel, etc. The only difference to what I was expecting was he only wanted to do half days. That suited me well because his "simulator" was pretty low class. I have a 182 with an Aspen and the only plane he had in his database was a Bonanza. and I couldn't get the hang of it so we did all of it n my 182.

Nice guy and the training has been rewarding. I'm 62 and found the training to sink in (with my old brain!) even though it was pretty fast!

Check-ride coming up Monday.
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What kind of simulator did he use?
 
I wanted to do PIC, but I had issues getting an airplane. At the time, I wasn't an aircraft owner, and I couldn't find a way to make a rental work...most of the planes I had access to came with "no flight instruction unless it's with our employee" in the rental agreement. And even if they didn't, scheduling an aircraft for several consecutive days wasn't an easy task. Plus, there was a fairly long waiting list at PIC...maybe three months, if I remember correctly. I figured in that time, I could at least get started locally, and I just happened to find a CFII I had a great rapport with, and I decided to stick with him.

Still, I liked the PIC idea and was impressed with the folks I spoke to there. If I could have found an airplane to do it in, I probably would have gone that way.
 
Ryan F. said:
One thing to consider here, and it's not a knock on PIC or any other accelerated training course: if you jam an instrument rating into ten-ish days (yes, I know there's prep-work which precedes it, but the majority of the training takes place in a tiny bubble of time) you will need to get right out there and use that new instrument rating quite a bit as soon as you pass the course. If you don't, all of those skills will diminish quickly, or even appear to vanish in some cases.

I've done more instrument, ATP and turbojet type rating training than any other kind of flight instruction. Those are all very heavy on instrument flying and procedural skills. It's not easy to absorb the needed knowledge, understand it, apply it, correlate it, and convert it into actual hand-eye coordination and division of attention tasks in a few days -- then actually retain it for the long haul. Not saying it can't be done, as it clearly can, but the odds are a bit stacked against you unless you really make it a point to go out and exercise the new skills immediately after course completion.
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The other concept to keep in mind is the 10 day is directed to passing a test. There are a large number of 10 day wonders who find themselves hiring a CFI for more training post test.
 
A few knocks on PIC..... I never understood when we were shooting approaches he wanted to land each time and taxi back. This added so much time to each procedure plus the gas and wear and tear on the equipment! My friends who were taking their training one hour a week shot 3 approaches in an hour and this guy had me shooting 7..... in 4 hours!! Also in an RNAV he wanted to go out to the farthest feeder route (I can understand going out for a procedure turn) but it takes no more skill to fly the approach from 15 miles out! We have a good approach selection at my airport so we could easily have gone missed each time and immediately set up for the next approach.

At $600+ per day instruction fees it got expensive after a while. The "10 day program" got stretched out over 3 months due to his 1/2 days and other commitments throughout the training. In air instruction was good otherwise but oral prep was poor. I self cancelled my checkride the night before because I realized I probably would get through the oral portion.
 
Betmerick said:
A few knocks on PIC..... I never understood when we were shooting approaches he wanted to land each time and taxi back. This added so much time to each procedure plus the gas and wear and tear on the equipment! My friends who were taking their training one hour a week shot 3 approaches in an hour and this guy had me shooting 7..... in 4 hours!! Also in an RNAV he wanted to go out to the farthest feeder route (I can understand going out for a procedure turn) but it takes no more skill to fly the approach from 15 miles out! We have a good approach selection at my airport so we could easily have gone missed each time and immediately set up for the next approach.

At $600+ per day instruction fees it got expensive after a while. The "10 day program" got stretched out over 3 months due to his 1/2 days and other commitments throughout the training. In air instruction was good otherwise but oral prep was poor. I self cancelled my checkride the night before because I realized I probably would get through the oral portion.
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Did you try to get him to just go missed? I mean you're the one paying. Seems like you should have gotten him to do it like you wanted.
 
MBDiagMan said:
The title is the question. I am frustrated trying to fly with the local instructors. There are a few that are absolutely top notch instructors, but have other commitments or require flying back and forth to another field.

Do any of you have experience with one of the schools that send an instructor and a simulator to you?
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I'm assuming by your profile picture you own a Mooney? What kind of avionics? How much training time toward your rating do you have already?
 
I have about 15 hours under the hood and can keep the top side up. I went through some delays, but get my plane back this week and will be ready to fly again after thanksgiving. I have 430 W, 345, Nav com and glide slope and a six pack, no autopilot yet. Plane is certified for the clouds. Also I might have accommodations in Wimberly.
 
Clip4 said:
The other concept to keep in mind is the 10 day is directed to passing a test. There are a large number of 10 day wonders who find themselves hiring a CFI for more training post test.
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I don't know what the basis for that. ALL IFR training is directed to the airman certification standards. That's the way it is supposed to be. The PIC syllabus is no more "teaching to the test" than any other instrument program of study out there. What it has is a greatly organized thing to teach the command-performance model (rather than the completely inane, misunderstood, and counter productive FAA primary-supporting idiocy) as applied to the various regimes of instrument flight.

I've never heard of anybody needing to get a CFI for "more training" any more than any other mode of training.
 
Betmerick said:
At $600+ per day instruction fees it got expensive after a while. The "10 day program" got stretched out over 3 months due to his 1/2 days and other commitments throughout the training. In air instruction was good otherwise but oral prep was poor. I self cancelled my checkride the night before because I realized I probably would get through the oral portion.
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What? I would have been on the phone the first time I didn't have access to the instructor from the time the instruction started. The whole point of this thing is that you have exclusive access to the instructor for the duration.
 
flyingron said:
I don't know what the basis for that. ALL IFR training is directed to the airman certification standards. That's the way it is supposed to be. The PIC syllabus is no more "teaching to the test" than any other instrument program of study out there. What it has is a greatly organized thing to teach the command-performance model (rather than the completely inane, misunderstood, and counter productive FAA primary-supporting idiocy) as applied to the various regimes of instrument flight.

I've never heard of anybody needing to get a CFI for "more training" any more than any other mode of training.
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Maybe you need to do more research. This is quite common with PIC students.
 
BrianNC said:
Where is the research? I'd like to see it.
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You could start by calling some flight schools and ask about persons who graduated 10 day wonder courses who came in for additional training.. it is not uncommon. The reason is many of the crash course graduates are not confident to fly under IFR.

In a conventional setting a student who does not feel prepared can easily extend training. In the crash course your time is up and you meet the absolute minimum standard or you don’t. Of course the crash courses do not publish their wash out rates, which are probably objectionable to most applicants if they were informed.
 
That's bullpoop. Nothing prevents you from gettin additional instruction with your PIC instructor or to book a 3 day with another PIC instructor. However, I still don't believe your off-the-cuff anecdotal "you can call flight schools." First, other flight schools are not inclined to be objective and second, I doubt the veracity of your statement to begin with.
"
The course isn't a "crash" course that is "missing" anything that your lets go out and fly some approaches several times a month that your average flight school offers. They have just made a syllabus (which is nicely documented in Peter Dogan's book if you want to use it otherwise). Dogan is perhaps THE BEST book out there on actual "flying IFR" regardless of the training situation you use it in. You're not getting any depth in your training by parceling it out over months of learn and forget cycles.
 
Do any other 10 day crash courses do any Back courses or arc's? Timed holds? My PIC guy didn't...... I had to seek additional training for those.
 
lol, Looks like it's a good thing my daughter is a CFII (MEII), and we have an IFR 172, if I decide to get my IR. We just had a Garmin 430W, KX 155, GTX 327 and a GDL 82 installed.
 
Betmerick said:
Do any other 10 day crash courses do any Back courses or arc's? Timed holds? My PIC guy didn't...... I had to seek additional training for those.
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Yeah, and how many non-PIC courses cover these? And are they in the ACS? And do you ever get them in real life? Whether you geta an arc or a BC really depends on whether there are any of these around you.

I haven't got an MLS approach yet (though I had to memorize that nonsense for my written).
 
Agree, the odds of getting any of those are pretty slim. They aren't rocket science either and shouldn't require much if any training.
 
flyingron said:
That's bullpoop. Nothing prevents you from gettin additional instruction with your PIC instructor or to book a 3 day with another PIC instructor. However, I still don't believe your off-the-cuff anecdotal "you can call flight schools." First, other flight schools are not inclined to be objective and second, I doubt the veracity of your statement to begin with.
"
The course isn't a "crash" course that is "missing" anything that your lets go out and fly some approaches several times a month that your average flight school offers. They have just made a syllabus (which is nicely documented in Peter Dogan's book if you want to use it otherwise). Dogan is perhaps THE BEST book out there on actual "flying IFR" regardless of the training situation you use it in. You're not getting any depth in your training by parceling it out over months of learn and forget cycles.
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mtuomi said:
I just don't see where you waste all that time. Instrument flying is super easy.



The PIC method assumes you own your own airplane. Doing it in a new-to-you plane would be insane.
15 hours is a long time to practice IR syllabus when you already know how to fly your plane with your eyes closed...
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Which is not the typical aircraft owner seeking an IR. Normally you get a low time guy with a new plane who has 3 hours instrument skills / experiance and stick/rudder skills below the private pilot standard.

Additionally you state 15 hours is a long time practicing the IR syllabus, the Part 61 applicant must have 15 hours of training and 40 hours total instrument experiance.

Yes, PIC will sell you more training, but PIC training is very expensive and certainly beyond the 10 days they market.

If PIC honestly disclosed they had a ~25% training extension rate their reputation would not be what some believe it is.
 
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