Anyone here flying into known icing?

Ray Jr

Ray Jr

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Hi All,

I fly in the east coast of Canada and you can count on the forecast containing icing 7 months a year. I'm wondering how 'good' the various de-ice equipment actually is in practice on the various types of aircraft.

For those of you who actually have de-ice equipment on your planes, what do you have and how bad of weather will you still take off in? What kind of a forecast would it take to case you to scrub a flight because of icing?

Thanks!
 
EdFred said:
I've ended up with ice on my plane, and that's as much as I am going to say about that.
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VmL9UcD.jpg
 
Ray Jr said:
Hi All,

I fly in the east coast of Canada and you can count on the forecast containing icing 7 months a year. I'm wondering how 'good' the various de-ice equipment actually is in practice on the various types of aircraft.

For those of you who actually have de-ice equipment on your planes, what do you have and how bad of weather will you still take off in? What kind of a forecast would it take to case you to scrub a flight because of icing?

Thanks!
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The only thing that would stop me in the work airplane is if the boss doesn't need to travel enough to justify a big deice bill, or the airport is closed.

Back when I flew a PC-12, it couldn't be flown in anything that started with FZ in the metar. Also it wasn't approved for type IV deice fluid at the time I flew it, so it would be hard to get out in really heavy snow.
 
maaaaybe we should be talking about FIUI.....
 
I am also based on the east coast, originally around DC, then moved to the mountains in TN and now outside Boston. So, I have pretty much dealt with most of the east coast icing conditions.
I have flown into predicted icing conditions in a FIKI Cirrus (rental), and also many times with a FIKI Aerostar. Now my current Cirrus SR22, is a non-hazard TKS.
The Cirrus uses the TKS system with a hot prop, the Aerostar used boots with hot props and windshield hot plate.
In both cases, make sure you closely look into the limitations of the system, and when the FIKI was certified to see what conditions are covered. For example, FIKI Cirrus specifically calls out it is not certified into freezing rain conditions (not much is).

For my current plane, I use both the general forecast, plus weather knowledge to avoid icing conditions. e.g. If the freezing layer is withing 3K of the clouds; I avoid the clouds. I stay below, or fly above the clouds, but I avoid any transition through cloud layers from a planning perspective that come withing 3K of the freezing layer.

For the rental Cirrus, I always required two outs when planning to go through an icing layer. Up, down, or backwards. But I would not plan to stay in ice. I would also avoid planning a flight where the likely IFR approach would have me in the predicted freezing layer. I view the FIKI Cirrus as good at escaping light to moderate icing conditions, not capable of handling/carrying ice.

For the Aerostar, I only required a single out, since it was a much more capable aircraft. As long it was not forecast above light icing or freezing rain on the final approach I was willing to fly.

That about covers how I plan for icing conditions.

What specific questions do you have?

Tim
 
I fly a jet with boots and I wouldn't fly into severe ice and would try to avoid moderate but in general, known icing would not stop me from making the flight.
 
I flew the 11 western states almost every day for 20 years in a KA200. We never canceled a flight due to icing.

Icing is in narrow altitude bands. Just don't STAY in icing. I can't remember ever HAVING to use the boots, but every so often we did just to see if they worked.
 
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tspear said:
I am also based on the east coast, originally around DC, then moved to the mountains in TN and now outside Boston. So, I have pretty much dealt with most of the east coast icing conditions.
I have flown into predicted icing conditions in a FIKI Cirrus (rental), and also many times with a FIKI Aerostar. Now my current Cirrus SR22, is a non-hazard TKS.
The Cirrus uses the TKS system with a hot prop, the Aerostar used boots with hot props and windshield hot plate.
In both cases, make sure you closely look into the limitations of the system, and when the FIKI was certified to see what conditions are covered. For example, FIKI Cirrus specifically calls out it is not certified into freezing rain conditions (not much is).

For my current plane, I use both the general forecast, plus weather knowledge to avoid icing conditions. e.g. If the freezing layer is withing 3K of the clouds; I avoid the clouds. I stay below, or fly above the clouds, but I avoid any transition through cloud layers from a planning perspective that come withing 3K of the freezing layer.

For the rental Cirrus, I always required two outs when planning to go through an icing layer. Up, down, or backwards. But I would not plan to stay in ice. I would also avoid planning a flight where the likely IFR approach would have me in the predicted freezing layer. I view the FIKI Cirrus as good at escaping light to moderate icing conditions, not capable of handling/carrying ice.

For the Aerostar, I only required a single out, since it was a much more capable aircraft. As long it was not forecast above light icing or freezing rain on the final approach I was willing to fly.

That about covers how I plan for icing conditions.

What specific questions do you have?

Tim
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I think you answered it.

I am really wondering how much of a difference it makes to have drive equipment. Anything you read in the flight manuals tries to scare the pants off you at the slightest hint of ice.

The question I had was if I actually had some deice gear would it allow me to get off the ground more often. And also, do a plane need to have a full cats ass ice system to even bother. I think you all answered it and basically ya, you actually can go more often and the more gear the better.

Thanks!
 
kgruber said:
I flew the 11 western states almost every day for 20 years in a KA200. We never canceled a flight due to icing.

Icing is in narrow altitude bands. Just don't STAY in icing. I can't remember ever HAVING to use the boots, but every so often we did just to see if they worked.
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Ya, exactly. Wasn't sure how serious that layer was.
 
kgruber said:
I flew the 11 western states almost every day for 20 years in a KA200. We never canceled a flight due to icing.

Icing is in narrow altitude bands. Just don't STAY in icing. I can't remember ever HAVING to use the boots, but every so often we did just to see if they worked.
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would you say you've had negative icing? :happydance::cheers::happydance:
 
To be more specific, since we're here, how much weather could a Piper Navajo handle for example. Say there was light to moderate icing forecast from the surface to 8000 feet. Sounds like you guys would go for it? No freezing rain or drizzle.
 
kgruber said:
I can't remember ever HAVING to use the boots, but every so often we did just to see if they worked.
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I’m calling ******** on that if you actually flew almost daily in 11 western states.

Definitely leaving you a negative tip for this one.
 
Ray Jr said:
To be more specific, since we're here, how much weather could a Piper Navajo handle for example. Say there was light to moderate icing forecast from the surface to 8000 feet. Sounds like you guys would go for it? No freezing rain or drizzle.
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One question is the content of that, is there going to be SLD for instance (through the layer for instance). Then add in how heavily loaded the Navajo is - climb rates will vary there. Boots in good shape? Oh, and assuming you don’t have anything that prevents you from legally flying at or above 10k ft (charter ops, O2, etc).

In general, the answer is a Navajo with that climbing through a surface to 8000 ft layer of light to moderate should be doable, but you really need to learn the plane, the local weather conditions and forecasts, etc.

-The Ted
Who’s flown Navajos (and other deuces twins) in icing in Canada (and the USA) and needed the boots
 
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Ray Jr said:
To be more specific, since we're here, how much weather could a Piper Navajo handle for example. Say there was light to moderate icing forecast from the surface to 8000 feet. Sounds like you guys would go for it? No freezing rain or drizzle.
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I do not know the Navajo capabilities. But I would not expect there to actually be a layer 8K think of freezing. It normally is only a band few thousand feet thick, with 3K being kind of the exception. What really matters is where the freezing layer is, the clouds are, the temps in the clouds and what precip (if any) is expected.

Tim
 
Ted said:
One question is the content of that, is there going to be SLD for instance (through the layer for instance). Then add in how heavily loaded the Navajo is - climb rates will vary there. Boots in good shape? Oh, and assuming you don’t have anything that prevents you from legally flying at or above 10k ft (charter ops, O2, etc).

In general, the answer is a Navajo with that climbing through a surface to 8000 ft layer of light to moderate should be doable, but you really need to learn the plane, the local weather conditions and forecasts, etc.

-The Ted
Who’s flown Navajos (and other deuces twins) in icing in Canada (and the USA) and needed the boats
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Very interesting. I hadn't considered the weight but of course that matters.

I guess you try it a little and see how it goes and then try again.
 
Ray Jr said:
Very interesting. I hadn't considered the weight but of course that matters.

I guess you try it a little and see how it goes and then try again.
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Better solution. Find an old check hauling pilot, have him/her fly with you in winter conditions and teach you how to read the weather. Plus take a couple weather courses.

Tim
 
Ray Jr said:
full cats ass ice system
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Is that de-ice or anti-ice? Does it use heat (maybe hot exhaust from the cat ass? Bleed air from cat ass?? ugh.), some sort of pneumatic puss-n-boots? Or is it some type of weeping system (ugh.. gross)?
 
Ray Jr said:
To be more specific, since we're here, how much weather could a Piper Navajo handle for example. Say there was light to moderate icing forecast from the surface to 8000 feet. Sounds like you guys would go for it? No freezing rain or drizzle.
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Would not take a Navajo into sustained icing conditions.
 
Although we never cancelled for icing, we did cancel for turbulence. My boss, who flew B17Rs in WW2, Skyraiders in Korea and AC47 "Spooky" in Vietnam.........told me in no uncertain terms.........Don't EVER give my people a bad ride!!

The B17R had an interesting job. They were a rescue B17, and he was stationed in Italy. If an allied airplane ditched in the Mediterranean, they would drop a raft upwind with ropes that were rocket-propelled. The ropes would shoot out some length to either side of the raft. The wind would blow the raft/ropes back to the ditched pilot. He would grab a rope and pull the raft to his spot and climb in.
 
I look at PIREPs, icing forecasts, AIRMETs, cloud tops, etc. I’ve found TKS fluid to be pretty effective but I don’t try to hang out in the clouds for too long.
 
I have flown many airplanes in icing conditions. The thing I can tell you is this..............It's totally unpredictable as to the effects and GET OUT OF IT as RAPIDLY as you can. I don't care what you are flying, GET OUT of it as FAST AS YOU Can. I have been overwhelmed by ice in everything from SEL airplanes to heavy jets. A couple I was lucky to get out without bending metal, or worse. Respect it.
 
tspear said:
Better solution. Find an old check hauling pilot, have him/her fly with you in winter conditions and teach you how to read the weather. Plus take a couple weather courses.

Tim
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I be one of them. I flew a FIKI Navajo around New England. If the equipment was working I never worried about it. No freezing rain! This was before the Roselawn ATR accident and SLD wasn't understood nor discussed. Clear ice would send me scurrying for a new altitude, rime never bothered me.
 
Kritchlow said:
Would not take a Navajo into sustained icing conditions.
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The wording suggests that there is an aircraft that you would take into "sustained" icing. How do you define "sustained" and what aircraft would you fly in such conditions rather than trying to exit?
 
Ray Jr said:
To be more specific, since we're here, how much weather could a Piper Navajo handle for example. Say there was light to moderate icing forecast from the surface to 8000 feet. Sounds like you guys would go for it? No freezing rain or drizzle.
Click to expand...

The Navajo is a good icing bird. I have flown them in the Great Lakes and SE Alaska. Learn about SLD and avoid that. Fortunately, SLD is often in a limited area geographically. In brief, SLD happens when larger droplets get supercooled. This tends to happen with something has enough force to push the droplets up into much colder air or the conditions are right to drop them into much colder air. The latter is known as freezing rain. Strong frontal systems and orographic lifting account for most of the rest.

Layered, winter time ice is typically not much of a problem for a deiced airplane and that is certainly true of a Navajo. The forecast may give a range of 8,000', but icing is almost never that thick in layered, winter time conditions where the air is relatively stable. In front zones, I have seen thicker layers. The strategy generally is get up through it quickly and back down through it quickly.
 
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Ray Jr said:
I fly in the east coast of Canada and you can count on the forecast containing icing 7 months a year. I'm wondering how 'good' the various de-ice equipment actually is in practice on the various types of aircraft.
For those of you who actually have de-ice equipment on your planes, what do you have and how bad of weather will you still take off in? What kind of a forecast would it take to case you to scrub a flight because of icing?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
I've flown Navajos, Beech99s, Dornier 228s, and PC-12s in the US (from New England to MN) and Eastern Canada (Toronto, Montreal, Quebec City, and Halifax) and had no concerns in flying those types in icing conditions, to include moderate. However no aircraft (to include the 737s I flew) should be flown in freezing rain or drizzle.
 
Kritchlow said:
Would not take a Navajo into sustained icing conditions.
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Kristin said:
The wording suggests that there is an aircraft that you would take into "sustained" icing. How do you define "sustained" and what aircraft would you fly in such conditions rather than trying to exit?
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No need to read into my wording. I stated it pretty clearly.
 
I've done it FIKI sr 22s, pretty much a yawner, but you really have to respect the limitations. I've been in moderate ice and it works well. It will remove ice if you get surprised, but you need to vigilant, I would not want to test it out with a large build up. Heavy and SLD are a no go if it is on your route. As others have said, make sure you always have an out. Contrary to popular belief, while most ice occurs in a relatively narrow band, you can run into situations where the ice layer can be so big you can't climb out of it with a piston aircraft. Skew T can give you an idea as to where ice will start and who thick the layer is. Also in some situations, like stratus, there can be more ice near the top of the layer than the bottom.
 
Ray Jr said:
To be more specific, since we're here, how much weather could a Piper Navajo handle for example.
Click to expand...

I used to fly Navajo Chieftains in northwest and northern Alaska. I found the Navajo very capable in light icing and had no problem. I also flew at or near max gross weight. (that's my story and I am sticking with it) I flew through severe icing, only once, while on the ILS in Kotzebue and landed with approximately 8 inches of ice on the nose cone.

Forecast light icing along the routes would not stop me from taking off, but don't get me wrong. I have a great respect for ice and would search for a way out once in it. Probably 95%+ of the icing I went through was rime ice.


Kritchlow said:
Would not take a Navajo into sustained icing conditions.
Click to expand...

Not disagreeing butI am interested in hearing the rest of that story.
 
Zeldman said:
I used to fly Navajo Chieftains in northwest and northern Alaska. I found the Navajo very capable in light icing and had no problem. I also flew at or near max gross weight. (that's my story and I am sticking with it) I flew through severe icing, only once, while on the ILS in Kotzebue and landed with approximately 8 inches of ice on the nose cone.

Forecast light icing along the routes would not stop me from taking off, but don't get me wrong. I have a great respect for ice and would search for a way out once in it. Probably 95%+ of the icing I went through was rime ice.




Not disagreeing butI am interested in hearing the rest of that story.
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I’ve flown Navajos in the past (mostly Chieftans) and found them a bit underpowered. Never had an ice issue, but I did shut an an engine down once. The airplane did fine, but we were at 2000 feet and close to an airport.
 
Ray Jr said:
I think you all answered it and basically ya, you actually can go more often and the more gear the better.
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The more "power" the better, I'd say. Power to climb faster, climb higher, run boots, provide hot air, turn big alternators. Light airplanes don't really have enough power to be very comfortable in icing because you don't know what you're getting into until you're into it.
 
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