Anyone ever use a Ground-controlled Approach?

[Pugs]

Willow Grove PA

Welcome - Flew the GCA in the EA-6B at Willow Grove several times when I was flying from NAF Andrews (callsigns were Cobra or Alpha Foxtrot 500-505). You guys did a great job

 

[luvflyin]

I did active reserve duty at Santa Ana (Tustin), New River and Bogue Field (twice). I was at Glynco from about mid September 1971 - early January 1972, I think. Long time ago. Wife was with me and we lived in military housing in Brunswick GA. What an experience.

Just missed ya. I left in late August.

 

[geezer]

If a pilot has the ability to fly the plane by reference to the instruments installed, he can fly a GCA.

If he cannot aviate, it is not going to end well.

I did 2 GCA's, under the hood, at night, with my instructor. We were finishing the newly required simulated IFR conditions training, and I had 39 hours TT. They were flown at Andrews AFB, and continued past the announcement of minimum height. The guidance does not end. At about 10 feet, the instructor took the controls, started the missed approach, and had me raise the hood. We were on the center line, and I could see the edge lights out both side windows.

The second was with a different controller, they had called him in to log for his proficiency requirement. The quality was just as good.

If I had not touched the throttle, we would have had a very firm touchdown, and maybe a bounce, but would have needed taxi instructions in short order.

Since then, and before I started IFR training, I did half a dozen more, to keep comfortable with the system, "just in case". I did not plan to fly into a need to have GCA bring me down, but I intended to be ready if trapped on top.

I have the greatest praise and respect for the guys that i worked with for those approaches.

 

[Velocity173]

A4’s, F4’s, P2’s, all were fun. F4 landing speed just a few knots above stall speed. Had to be careful of spacing. “No Gyro” approaches were challenging, only turns into the bad engine.

We used to simulate engine out with turns towards the good engine as well. Have to arc them all the way down final. I think real life that wouldn’t be an issue for most aircraft though. Generally multi-engine aircraft can turn fine away from the good engine without spinning. Just like no gyros for “smoke in the cockpit” I don’t think the simulation matched real world circumstances.

 

[James Allen]

We used to simulate engine out with turns towards the good engine as well. Have to arch them all the way down final. I think real life that wouldn’t be an issue for most aircraft though. Generally multi-engine aircraft can turn fine away from the good engine without spinning. Just like no gyros for “smoke in the cockpit” I don’t think the simulation matched real world circumstances.

Had many multi-engine aircraft come into Willow Grove with one engine out. Got pretty good at "start turn-stop turn" all the way down the glide slope. Never wanted to turn too far, 360's are hell to correct.

 

[James Allen]

Just missed ya. I was the stupid one who went to Parris Island in July and August

 

[James Allen]

Welcome - Flew the GCA in the EA-6B at Willow Grove several times when I was flying from NAF Andrews (callsigns were Cobra or Alpha Foxtrot 500-505). You guys did a great job

Thanks. MATCU 73 had some great controllers. During my time at Santa Ana, we went over to the tower at El Toro. Weren't allowed to even look at the A6's parked below, they pulled the shades down on that side of the tower. We did get to see a P51D do low approaches. My dad was a rear seater in a dive bomber in the Pacific in WWII and was stationed in El Toro for a while.

 

[James Allen]

I didn't mean to hijack this thread. I have never really had a chance to speak about GCA with other professionals. Thanks to all of you for your comments and patience. Nice to hear from "the other side" so to speak.

 

[Maxnr]

There used to be another type of ground controlled approaches 60's,70's. It was called a DF Steer. Find an old AIM and read up on it. There were a lot of FSS's back then and all had the equipment. The pilot keyed his mic when told to, and the ground equipment indicated mag direction with a line on a round CRT. The guy on the ground then transmitted the recip heading back to the plane. It would bring him in over the ground equipment. It could nail it.
The staff at Cairns AAF had it ultra refined. I was in awe when one VFR day and I was under the hood, they brought me in over the receiver. Big deal. Routine. Then he gave me an outbound heading for 2 minutes, then descended me to 1,000' or so. He then gave me an inbound heading and dropped me down to 300' or 500' or so. Two minutes later he said " Report RW in sight or missed approach." I raised the hood and I was short final right down the center line.
This level of service was not available at all facilities. Any body remember?

 

[Velocity173]

There used to be another type of ground controlled approaches 60's,70's. It was called a DF Steer. Find an old AIM and read up on it. There were a lot of FSS's back then and all had the equipment. The pilot keyed his mic when told to, and the ground equipment indicated mag direction with a line on a round CRT. The guy on the ground then transmitted the recip heading back to the plane. It would bring him in over the ground equipment. It could nail it.
The staff at Cairns AAF had it ultra refined. I was in awe when one VFR day and I was under the hood, they brought me in over the receiver. Big deal. Routine. Then he gave me an outbound heading for 2 minutes, then descended me to 1,000' or so. He then gave me an inbound heading and dropped me down to 300' or 500' or so. Two minutes later he said " Report RW in sight or missed approach." I raised the hood and I was short final right down the center line.
This level of service was not available at all facilities. Any body remember?

I remember seeing them at FSSs back in the 70s but never heard of them being used at ATC facilities. My dad worked FSS and they’d use them on the rare cases with lost aircraft. They didn’t do approaches with them though.

 

[Seanaldinho]

There used to be another type of ground controlled approaches 60's,70's. It was called a DF Steer. Find an old AIM and read up on it. There were a lot of FSS's back then and all had the equipment. The pilot keyed his mic when told to, and the ground equipment indicated mag direction with a line on a round CRT. The guy on the ground then transmitted the recip heading back to the plane. It would bring him in over the ground equipment. It could nail it.
The staff at Cairns AAF had it ultra refined. I was in awe when one VFR day and I was under the hood, they brought me in over the receiver. Big deal. Routine. Then he gave me an outbound heading for 2 minutes, then descended me to 1,000' or so. He then gave me an inbound heading and dropped me down to 300' or 500' or so. Two minutes later he said " Report RW in sight or missed approach." I raised the hood and I was short final right down the center line.
This level of service was not available at all facilities. Any body remember?

Every now and again, I still see DF equipment in use at radar facilities overseas (mainly some of the 'stans and that area). I haven't seen them use it for approaches, but it sometimes trickles over as something they want to keep and train on for emergency purposes.

 

[Witmo]

There used to be another type of ground controlled approaches 60's,70's. It was called a DF Steer. Find an old AIM and read up on it. There were a lot of FSS's back then and all had the equipment. The pilot keyed his mic when told to, and the ground equipment indicated mag direction with a line on a round CRT. The guy on the ground then transmitted the recip heading back to the plane. It would bring him in over the ground equipment. It could nail it.
The staff at Cairns AAF had it ultra refined. I was in awe when one VFR day and I was under the hood, they brought me in over the receiver. Big deal. Routine. Then he gave me an outbound heading for 2 minutes, then descended me to 1,000' or so. He then gave me an inbound heading and dropped me down to 300' or 500' or so. Two minutes later he said " Report RW in sight or missed approach." I raised the hood and I was short final right down the center line.
This level of service was not available at all facilities. Any body remember?

This sounds more like a surveillance approach. I never heard of a DF approach in modern times in over forty years of flying. With DF you get no distance information unless multiple DF sites triangulate and this was not normally available and takes an inordinate amount of time and coordination. Practice DF steers were common when I learned to fly but no approach capability was ever advertised or alluded to.

 

[Maxnr]

I remember seeing them at FSSs back in the 70s but never heard of them being used at ATC facilities. My dad worked FSS and they’d use them on the rare cases with lost aircraft. They didn’t do approaches with them though.

Your Airmanship;

Remember, this was at Cairns AAF and back when they were turning out 1500+ pilots every month. The morning flight taking off resembled a swarm of locusts. The USA is not FAA. My bud at the FSS told me that he had to maintain currency and he only logged one or two a week. Now Cairns. That's a whole other story. I think that the DF guy was in the tower cab. Anyway, he was on another freq. Seems like the boys at Cairns had the experience to develop the procedure to a high level. ADSB was not yet invented. FSS only offered a steer to his receiver.

The other side of the coin is the DF gear on military A/C. Anybody see photos of D-Day C-47s with funny looking antennas mounted under the cockpit windows? They remind me of deer antlers with the prongs pointed forward. All the pilot had to know was the Morse "D'" and "U". They improved by the late 60's.

 

[luvflyin]

Your Airmanship;

Remember, this was at Cairns AAF and back when they were turning out 1500+ pilots every month. The morning flight taking off resembled a swarm of locusts. The USA is not FAA. My bud at the FSS told me that he had to maintain currency and he only logged one or two a week. Now Cairns. That's a whole other story. I think that the DF guy was in the tower cab. Anyway, he was on another freq. Seems like the boys at Cairns had the experience to develop the procedure to a high level. ADSB was not yet invented. FSS only offered a steer to his receiver.

The other side of the coin is the DF gear on military A/C. Anybody see photos of D-Day C-47s with funny looking antennas mounted under the cockpit windows? They remind me of deer antlers with the prongs pointed forward. All the pilot had to know was the Morse "D'" and "U". They improved by the late 60's.

There was a DF in the Tower at El Toro. It wasn’t operational, I don’t know how many years it had been since it was. A friend of mine worked at Daggett KDAG FSS. He said they had a DF ‘Approach.’ I’m sure it wasn’t much different than an approach like this. Probably didn’t do the ‘Barb’ thing but did it like a teardrop.

 

[Maxnr]

This sounds more like a surveillance approach. I never heard of a DF approach in modern times in over forty years of flying. With DF you get no distance information unless multiple DF sites triangulate and this was not normally available and takes an inordinate amount of time and coordination. Practice DF steers were common when I learned to fly but no approach capability was ever advertised or alluded to.

Remember, this was NOT the FAA. It was dirt simple for the DF steerer to provide an outbound heading once you were over head. He only had to note that his bearing to you had flipped 180 deg. He then clicked the stop watch. He then tear dropped you back inbound at the appropriate time. Remember that this was an emergency procedure. Of course, distance from the station could also be estimated in the same manner that you learned in ADF tracking. Remember; turn 90 deg left or right. When your bearing to the station changed 10 deg, you do the math and get an estimated distance. Not worth going through that when you are in close. If you had light winds, give thanks.

 

[Maxnr]

There was a DF in the Tower at El Toro. It wasn’t operational, I don’t know how many years it had been since it was. A friend of mine worked at Daggett KDAG FSS. He said they had a DF ‘Approach.’ I’m sure it wasn’t much different than an approach like this. Probably didn’t do the ‘Barb’ thing but did it like a teardrop.

View attachment 97697

I seem to recall that some Navy A/C had VHF/UHF ADFs.

 

[Velocity173]

Your Airmanship;

Remember, this was at Cairns AAF and back when they were turning out 1500+ pilots every month. The morning flight taking off resembled a swarm of locusts. The USA is not FAA. My bud at the FSS told me that he had to maintain currency and he only logged one or two a week. Now Cairns. That's a whole other story. I think that the DF guy was in the tower cab. Anyway, he was on another freq. Seems like the boys at Cairns had the experience to develop the procedure to a high level. ADSB was not yet invented. FSS only offered a steer to his receiver.

The other side of the coin is the DF gear on military A/C. Anybody see photos of D-Day C-47s with funny looking antennas mounted under the cockpit windows? They remind me of deer antlers with the prongs pointed forward. All the pilot had to know was the Morse "D'" and "U". They improved by the late 60's.

I don’t doubt you flew one, just saying never heard of any ATC facilities that had them. Never heard of anyone that actually flew one either. Definitely wasn't taught when I went to ATC school (1992) and it was long gone by the time I was stationed at Rucker (2000).

 

[Fracpilot]

I don’t doubt you flew one, just saying never heard of any ATC facilities that had them. Never heard of anyone that actually flew one either. Definitely wasn't taught when I went to ATC school (1992) and it was long gone by the time I was stationed at Rucker (2000).

I graduated Rucker ATC in 1994. We were taught radar, ASR, nonradar and PAR. I went on to work Troy GCA where we did plenty of GCA (PAR/ASR) radar approaches.

Mostly every military radar facility will do a PAR and ASR approach.


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[Velocity173]

I graduated Rucker ATC in 1994. We were taught radar, ASR, nonradar and PAR. I went on to work Troy GCA where we did plenty of GCA (PAR/ASR) radar approaches.

Mostly every military radar facility will do a PAR and ASR approach.


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Yeah, I’ve done them on both ends of the freq…including a few at Troy. DF approaches however, weren't taught in ATC history at NAS Memphis when I went thru and there definitely weren’t any active at USN / USMC at the time. First I’ve heard of pilot who actually flew one.

 

[luvflyin]

I don’t doubt you flew one, just saying never heard of any ATC facilities that had them. Never heard of anyone that actually flew one either. Definitely wasn't taught when I went to ATC school (1992) and it was long gone by the time I was stationed at Rucker (2000).

They weren’t doing it 71 either.

 

[Velocity173]

Classic.

 

[Maxnr]

Yeah, I’ve done them on both ends of the freq…including a few at Troy. DF approaches however, weren't taught in ATC history at NAS Memphis when I went thru and there definitely weren’t any active at USN / USMC at the time. First I’ve heard of pilot who actually flew one.

"DF approaches were not taught...." You are absolutely right! I did say (1) We were VFR when my IP took me through it.. (2) I also said that this was a locally developed procedure. (3) considering the very high level of activity during the VN era, there was a lot experience being gained. (4) Equipment was basic.

 

[catmandu]

The GCA call outs from Italian controllers were the stuff of legends, and I was skeptical.

Until it happened, mid 90’s, Adriatic Sea:

“Streetcar 307, Amendola Approach. You’re-a lookin’ good, don’t-a touchin’ nuthin’!”

 

[35 AoA]

Best job of my life, most rewarding, and when a pilot thanks you at the end and comments on your skills, makes all of the other issues of being in the military worth while.

I always try and give a good word when I check off anytime I get a solid PAR. You all are/were the difference between landing and not landing on some days. Also I've always hoped it would be heard by a sup' if it might have been a more junior controller at the helm.

Speaking of which, coming back the other night we had a fairly surprise low marine layer wash over home field as all of us were out in the working area. Daisy chain of maybe 8 jets all arriving at once, PAR is down, single runway ops, and then some guy fouls the A-gear/deck. Woman working approach was the best, hands down, I've ever seen anywhere. Gave everyone a heads up, starting long straight vectors at reasonable altitudes, and began asking everyone to "say state". I remember thinking "this lady lived a past life in a CATCC somewhere"; nobody else would be able to make sense of what a "3.5" vs a "6.0" meant. She was great, got us all on deck in a calm orderly fashion with lots of "sugar" about what her gameplan was, even without the old PAR.