Anyone buying a Rivian?

172andyou said:
And if anyone understands how to bankrupt a company, it's Elon.
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Yeah, he's got quite the record. PayPal, SpaceX, & Tesla.

As far as Twitter, he didn't buy it to make money, at least not in the short-term. He bought it to change how it conducted business, even if that cost him billions.
 
Larry in TN said:
Yeah, he's got quite the record. PayPal, SpaceX, & Tesla.

As far as Twitter, he didn't buy it to make money, at least not in the short-term. He bought it to change how it conducted business, even if that cost him billions.
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Eh, I'm not so sure he didn't get caught playing stupid games with the Twitter deal, and got forced into a buy that he didn't really want but didn't want to run afoul of SEC tampering/manipulation rules. I seriously doubt he cares enough about how they conduct their business to drop billions on it. However, now he gets to try and make lemonade out of the lemons.
 
Larry in TN said:
As far as Twitter, he didn't buy it to make money, at least not in the short-term. He bought it to change how it conducted business, even if that cost him billions.
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Even if that were true, and of course it's an insane and baseless claim, it would only validate my statement in a different way. Deliberate or not (and of course it isn't), he's being very effective at bankrupting twitter.
 
172andyou said:
Even if that were true, and of course it's an insane and baseless claim, it would only validate my statement in a different way. Deliberate or not (and of course it isn't), he's being very effective at bankrupting twitter.
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Musk has been very clear that his interest in Twitter is based on his opinion that having an uncensored forum is essential to society. That is his overriding concern, even more so than profitability. I don't see how that's even debatable. You may disagree with his goals, but he has stated them clearly and repeatedly.

His business track record is similarly clear. He is one of the most successful businessmen in history.

I used to think that he was crazy. Turns out he's just autistic having Asperger's Syndrome. He has done what seemed impossible several times. I don't know what the end result at Twitter will be but I can't bet against him.
 
172andyou said:
Even if that were true, and of course it's an insane and baseless claim, it would only validate my statement in a different way. Deliberate or not (and of course it isn't), he's being very effective at bankrupting twitter.
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Twitter was doing a good job at going bankrupt long before Musk got there. The two years previous to him taking the helm, they reported a net loss. He didn’t buy Twitter to make a profit and I don’t think he cares either. With his wealth it was just a little pet project.
 
Like LCID, I think if you buy RVIN today, you’ll double your money before the year is out.
 
Larry in TN said:
Musk has been very clear that his interest in Twitter is based on his opinion that having an uncensored forum is essential to society. That is his overriding concern, even more so than profitability. I don't see how that's even debatable.
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It's debatable because you are only telling half the story. He also said that he wants to quintuple revenue, diversify revenue sources and double the user base. Instead he has made the platform and himself a laughing stock. His stated goals never including taking a multibillion dollar personal loss to allow toxic people to say whatever they want. It was always just pandering to the free speech crowd in pursuit of the economic goals I list above.

Velocity173 said:
Twitter was doing a good job at going bankrupt long before Musk got there. The two years previous to him taking the helm, they reported a net loss. He didn’t buy Twitter to make a profit and I don’t think he cares either. With his wealth it was just a little pet project.
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Twitter was roughly break even and needed to downsize staff a bit to be sustainable. It did not need to be thrown into a blender set to puree and lose half it's advertisers. That is how you bankrupt a company, not rebuild one.
 
172andyou said:
It's debatable because you are only telling half the story. He also said that he wants to quintuple revenue, diversify revenue sources and double the user base. Instead he has made the platform and himself a laughing stock. His stated goals never including taking a multibillion dollar personal loss to allow toxic people to say whatever they want. It was always just pandering to the free speech crowd in pursuit of the economic goals I list above.



Twitter was roughly break even and needed to downsize staff a bit to be sustainable. It did not need to be thrown into a blender set to puree and lose half it's advertisers. That is how you bankrupt a company, not rebuild one.
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No, Twitter lost money in 2020 & 2021. Not to mention they’ve only had two lousy years of profitability since inception. Either way, Musk won’t lose sleep over it. The masses (advertising) will return and just like Tesla, will return to profitability in the coming years.

https://www.businessofapps.com/data/twitter-statistics/
 
Twitter was a dumb move. You can't take a predominantly left leaning platform and turn it into a legit non biased social forum without ****ing off the masses who used it for corrupt political manipulation purposes. I suspect he either did it for the fun of it, or has some other motive. My fear for Musk is that he has stretched him self too thin and his products are suffering for it. Thanks to his open source sharing the competition has caught up in many ways. I think his recent price reduction is a way to stay relevant until something new is released. He is a polarizing figure who is as transparent as they come. Problem is his target demographic will abandon all their values the moment they are triggered by something they don't like. Save the earth is popular until the leader of that movement has an opinion of his own.
 
Grum.Man said:
Twitter was a dumb move. You can't take a predominantly left leaning platform and turn it into a legit non biased social forum without ****ing off the masses who used it for corrupt political manipulation purposes. I suspect he either did it for the fun of it, or has some other motive. My fear for Musk is that he has stretched him self too thin and his products are suffering for it. Thanks to his open source sharing the competition has caught up in many ways. I think his recent price reduction is a way to stay relevant until something new is released. He is a polarizing figure who is as transparent as they come. Problem is his target demographic will abandon all their values the moment they are triggered by something they don't like. Save the earth is popular until the leader of that movement has an opinion of his own.
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It's been amazing to watch how fast he's gone from hero to arch-villain to the left, and the obverse on the right.

What were we talking about? Oh yeah, rivian. No, I'm not buying a rivian :D
 
Grum.Man said:
Twitter was a dumb move. You can't take a predominantly left leaning platform and turn it into a legit non biased social forum without ****ing off the masses who used it for corrupt political manipulation purposes. I suspect he either did it for the fun of it, or has some other motive. My fear for Musk is that he has stretched him self too thin and his products are suffering for it. Thanks to his open source sharing the competition has caught up in many ways. I think his recent price reduction is a way to stay relevant until something new is released. He is a polarizing figure who is as transparent as they come. Problem is his target demographic will abandon all their values the moment they are triggered by something they don't like. Save the earth is popular until the leader of that movement has an opinion of his own.
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The problem with Musk is the same as Jobs. People put them on this pedestal like they were gods or something. They also hang on his every word as if because he’s a tech genius, then he must have some sort of wisdom in all facets of life. Then when he says something that isn’t profound or god forbid, isn’t aligned with their beliefs, they get offended.

In reality, Musk, Jobs, Gates, etc., are (were) all just cutthroat businessmen and if you dig hard enough, you can find some business decisions that aren’t very ethical. I find it ironic Musk has become a polarizing figure when really he like others (Jobs,Buffett,Gates) don’t engage in politics much. And while they might lean a certain direction, they're all known to go both sides of the isle. That’s what capitalists do.
 
I like the Rivian but it's just too expensive for what it is. The interior is nice, but no more so than any other main stream brand these days. You can get a 50" TV these days for $250.00 so I can't imagine the screens being costly. You are paying a premium for a less practical car. That's the case for all electric cars right now though. It's the look at me I'm doing my part mobile without actually knowing the harm these types of vehicles are having as a whole. Most people buy them though like an old man used to buy a Corvette or a classic car from their youth. They have the money to burn, it doesn't have to be practical or useable, it just has to be fun or flashy to make them feel their heart again without sticking a fork into an outlet. That's now left to their car!
 
Grum.Man said:
You are paying a premium for a less practical car. That's the case for all electric cars right now though.
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According to Kelly Blue Book, “The average new car sold in November cost $48,681 – a record high.”

There are a few electric cars that come in at or below that. With the recent price drop, a Tesla Model 3 starts at $43,990. And until March qualifies for the $7,500 tax credit. So not much of a “premium”, if any, right now.
 
FastEddieB said:
According to Kelly Blue Book, “The average new car sold in November cost $48,681 – a record high.”

There are a few electric cars that come in at or below that. With the recent price drop, a Tesla Model 3 starts at $43,990. And until March qualifies for the $7,500 tax credit. So not much of a “premium”, if any, right now.
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It’s hard to compare to a gas car. As for interior materials it’s not even up to civic standards. The base model tech is mostly gimmicks. A Civic SI starts at 25k so that’s a pretty big premium for a car that can only go 270 miles between hour long charges assuming you have a place to plug in.
 
FastEddieB said:
And until March qualifies for the $7,500 tax credit. So not much of a “premium”, if any, right now.
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I keep getting conflicting information about that. I believe the $7,500 "until March" doesn't mean the EV credit is going away. It means the current rules expire then and nobody knows for sure what the new rules might include. They may be better or worse than current rules. Of course though, with the current Congressional makekup, I'm leaning towards worse. So I'm thinking about a Rivian R1t before then.
 
Larry in TN said:
Toxic is as toxic does.
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Exactly. And in this case, Elon bankrupting twitter by letting the toxic people back on the platform, slashing the oversight team and disabling automated moderation.
 
I think the most interesting thing about the Elon Twitter-takeover was the disablement of the moderation. It was wild to see what people actually wanted to talk about, and most of it had nothing to do with politics. And I think he was right to allow "toxic" people back on, if Twitter was going to be a platform for everyone. Who is "toxic" changes based on who judges it, and quite frankly, creates a very slippery slope.
 
Grum.Man said:
You are paying a premium for a less practical car.
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Not for me. I've owned an EV for the last nine years and the only reason why is because an EV is way more practical, useful and convenient than an internal combustion engine powered car. And I'm happy to pay a premium for that because it is worth it.
 
It's so odd how many disagreements in this country fall along urban vs rural lines. I wonder if it's always been thus.
 
schmookeeg said:
It's so odd how many disagreements in this country fall along urban vs rural lines. I wonder if it's always been thus.
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Kinda hard to have intelligent conversations with people who think meat comes from the grocery store, electricity comes from the wall socket, gas comes from the gas pump, and lumber comes from a lumber yard. And yet they’re supposedly the academics. :rolleyes:
 
172andyou said:
Exactly. And in this case, Elon bankrupting twitter by letting the toxic people back on the platform, slashing the oversight team and disabling automated moderation.
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I'm not clear on why you are the one who gets to decide who is toxic and who is not.
 
Practicality depends on what you use it for. My Model S is very practical in cold temps in Georgia. In northern climates, even with battery preconditioning, you could have an unpleasant surprise at the Super Charger.


Other vehicles, even worse. Take note at 16+15 he makes a comment about how the Rivian was there for 45 mins and left with only 79% SoC. Now if you got nothing better to do on a road trip and don’t mind spending that much time at a charger, have at it. The great thing about gas, it doesn’t matter how cold out it is, it’s still only gonna take a couple of minutes to fill up and go.

 
azblackbird said:
Kinda hard to have intelligent conversations with people who think meat comes from the grocery store, electricity comes from the wall socket, gas comes from the gas pump, and lumber comes from a lumber yard. And yet they’re supposedly the academics. :rolleyes:
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Heh. In the interest of bridging this gulf, then, I propose we allow Teslas sold from a meat packing plant, oil derrick, or coal power plant to qualify as a "dealership" for those states who require such to sell cars. :D

I don't understand states like mine who are proposing to ban ICE cars. It's not like CA is an only-urban state. A dude in Redding or Bakersfield (or or or) doesn't need to replace his F150 with a Model Y. If it's about carbon then tax the carbon (including the manufacture of EVs and batteries, and electricity generated). Sadly I think it's just about graft, same as always.

Don't get me started on stovetops. :mad:
 
Grum.Man said:
Save the earth is popular until the leader of that movement has an opinion of his own.
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Rule #1 of social media: no independent thoughts if you want to be liked and accepted! Because how dare someone indicate that they might have thought through an issue on their own and come to a conclusion that's different from what was decided by the mindless, rudderless public mob! :eek:.

But back to the point: No, I'm not lining up to buy a TSLA or a Rivian. No aversion to Musk or Bezos or anything. But because I think their cars are overpriced and TSLA's 25%+ gross margins support that idea... plus I like filling up my tank in less than 2 minutes at any number of gas stations. Admittedly some of the EVs are nifty pieces of machinery (fast!) with a lot of neat electronics, but I'd rather buy a cheap Hyundai and use the 30k+ savings for flying :cool:. It's just not the kind of purchase decision where it pays much to be an early adopter unless you just really like new tech IMHO.
 
Larry in TN said:
I'm not clear on why you are the one who gets to decide who is toxic and who is not.
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I wish I got to decide. Not sure why you think I do.

azblackbird said:
Kinda hard to have intelligent conversations with people who think meat comes from the grocery store, electricity comes from the wall socket, gas comes from the gas pump, and lumber comes from a lumber yard. And yet they’re supposedly the academics.
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Pretty hard to have intelligent conversations with people who would try to generalize academics as not knowing those things too.
 
IK04 said:
Here is my frame of reference: I typically travel for work to a location that is about 900 miles away. I can make that drive in under 11 hours if I only make one, five minute stop. My Diesel fueled car can almost make the trip unrefueled.

What would be my end-to-end time in an EV if I could only go 250-300 miles per charge and each charge takes 30-60 minutes? More.
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Legit question. How often do you do that?

In today’s world, 900 mile drives happen low single digits a year for 90% of families. I’ve done one of those in 10 years.
 
kyleb said:
Legit question. How often do you do that?

In today’s world, 900 mile drives happen low single digits a year for 90% of families. I’ve done one of those in 10 years.
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Probably 7-8 times per year. In between those drives, I regularly make 550-600 mile round trips from Central to North Texas. The good news there is that Tesla is installing Superchargers at all the Buc-Ees and there are three or four along my route.
 
172andyou said:
Exactly. And in this case, Elon bankrupting twitter by letting the toxic people back on the platform, slashing the oversight team and disabling automated moderation.
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Well, I guess that's one way to look at it.
I look at it from a different direction and see a different picture.
 
kyleb said:
Legit question. How often do you do that?

In today’s world, 900 mile drives happen low single digits a year for 90% of families. I’ve done one of those in 10 years.
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My parents do 900 mile (one-way, round trip is 1800+) trips at least four times a year, and usually more. Last year, they did between 6-8. The year before, they did that many in so many weekends. (Granted, they were moving cross-country.) Growing up, we'd drive off as close to a gas tank as we could (4ish hours a segment) before stopping for a bathroom and gas break, and try to be back in the van and ready to go within 15 minutes.

I think there are the types of people that drive everywhere and the people who fly when the trips exceed a couple of hours. So far, electric cars really only work for the people who either commute five miles every day/work from home, and don't do road trips or have the ability to charge all night, every night and don't mind longer breaks on any road trips taken.

ETA: Clarification needed. Sometimes I post too fast and don't realize that people can't read my mind. :cool:
 
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SkyChaser said:
So far, electric cars really only work for the people who either commute five miles every day/work from home, and don't do road trips.
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That is just so wrong. Do you even believe what you just wrote? I really think you are smarter than that.

But if you really do believe it, then I understand your skepticism. My best friend bought an EV BECAUSE he commutes 90 miles each way each day and charges up at night. He never has to visit a gas station. When he takes a road trip, they use his wife's Mercedes.
 
JOhnH said:
That is just so wrong. Do you even believe what you just wrote? I really think you are smarter than that.

But if you really do believe it, then I understand your skepticism. My best friend bought an EV BECAUSE he commutes 90 miles each way each day and charges up at night. He never has to visit a gas station.
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I don't know much about electric cars, and don't believe most of the marketing because
...marketing. In another thread, a guy said that if you commuted more than 50 miles a day, you'd need to charge every night, all night. I should have clarified that driving more is possible if you have chargers for every car in your garage and driveway.
 
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