Any Qs for Chicago ARTCC?

gprellwitz

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Grant Prellwitz
I have the opportunity next Saturday to meet with the folks from Chicago ARTCC and hopefully ask questions. (I don't think that Chicago Approach is colocated, but I could be wrong.)

I am hereby entertaining questions from the peanut gallery to be passed along!

Any burning questions you want answered, like "how can I get a peek at these letters of agreement that rule my life?" or "how do I know if a particular VOR is inbound or outbound" or ...

Please fill in the blanks!
 
I have the opportunity next Saturday to meet with the folks from Chicago ARTCC and hopefully ask questions. (I don't think that Chicago Approach is colocated, but I could be wrong.)

I am hereby entertaining questions from the peanut gallery to be passed along!

Any burning questions you want answered, like "how can I get a peek at these letters of agreement that rule my life?" or "how do I know if a particular VOR is inbound or outbound" or ...

Please fill in the blanks!

Ask why no one is wearing any blue jeans? :D
 
Ask why no one is wearing any blue jeans? :D
Or how they like their contract? I learned a fair amount about the Union side of things talking with the DuPage tower controllers a couple of months ago.
 
I think it is a precursor to a fair question and that is that we don't care what they dress like. We care about the quality of the ATC in area. happy controllers are safe controllers. I would also ask them about how how the runway changes at ORD will affect air traffic in the area and how arrivals and departures will now be handled.
 
And along those lines, whether they're seeing enough new blood coming in to make up for retirees (or those who just choose not to do the job after starting).

Don't worry, if I have any really funky examples I'll give them your tail number! :)
 
How 'bout this what is the magic password to get flight following, and what are the preferred IFR routes arounf the Bravo.

Pete
 
How 'bout this what is the magic password to get flight following, and what are the preferred IFR routes arounf the Bravo.

Pete
The former would be a question for Approach if they're there, but ARTCC should be able to help with the latter.
 
And along those lines, whether they're seeing enough new blood coming in to make up for retirees (or those who just choose not to do the job after starting).
There have been unidentified statements by controllers around Atlanta complaining of an upcoming mass shortage in all major areas and its effect on safety. Here are a few questions that apply across country:

I'd like to know just how much effort is being made to insure continued and competent replacements.

Is the FAA being as cheap at competitive hiring salaries as some are claiming? Quality and competence don't come cheap nor will many be capable of such a job, particularly the very voluminous and fast-paced terminal areas.

In the last year or so, there has been a continued increase in incursions and midair collisions or near-midair collisions. Is this a result of the loss of experienced controllers on the line?
 
These are definitely great questions to ask. I'll give you my perspective as well.

I'd like to know just how much effort is being made to insure continued and competent replacements.

Not a whole lot. Those CTI graduates who went to college and even received a four-year degree in air traffic management are waiting anywhere from one to two and a half years to get a call from the FAA to receive a class date for the academy in OKC, yet the FAA goes and holds a job fair to hire people off the street for positions at Indianapolis ARTCC (ZID). The FAA claims to be working as fast as they can, but the way I see it, they're going at the pace that best suits their agency, not the system itself.

Is the FAA being as cheap at competitive hiring salaries as some are claiming? Quality and competence don't come cheap nor will many be capable of such a job, particularly the very voluminous and fast-paced terminal areas.

Absolutely. Starting pay out of the academy at OKC is roughly $34,788 nationwide and after five years goes to $56,198, no where close to what the FAA publicly releases. I know of numerous new-hires who graduated before the imposed work rules and associated pay bands went into effect, were offered a position at the FAA, and flat out rejected the FAA's offer or quit after 3 weeks on the job. Morale is at an all-time low from my contact in ZME and doesn't seem to be getting any better. My friend Ben who was offered a position at ZDC was one of those that flat out turned down the FAA's offer and decided to turn his passion for computer science into an occupation as a lead computer programmer for the well known X-Plane flight simulation software.

In the last year or so, there has been a continued increase in incursions and midair collisions or near-midair collisions. Is this a result of the loss of experienced controllers on the line?

I don't have exact statistics in front of me, but I can safely say many of them are. You can't efficiently operate the national airspace system on nearly half as many controllers as there used to be and not expect more accidents. Many media outlets charge NATCA (the controllers union) with 'scaring' the public into believing their side of the issue, but I tend to agree with the union, things are looking pretty dangerous. During my visits to Boston Consolidated TRACON (BCT), New York TRACON (N90), and New York ARTCC (ZNY), the controllers taking me around pointed out how few people physically exist the operations room compared to years past. During a busy Saturday morning, only four controllers at BCT were working traffic at Boston Logan and surrounding satellite fields, an operation which is split into a total of twelve sectors which meant combining three or more sectors per controller. Same sort of deal as N90, though not as many retirements have come up there as they have at other facilities around the country. Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot we can do besides press these issues further to our Congressmen and presidential candidates and hope for the best. The past few years has proved how little can be changed under the current administration.

Grant, you're correct in that Chicago ARTCC (ZAU) is not colocated with C90. ZAU is located in Aurora, hence where the "AU" in ZAU came from. :)
 
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Jason, are you sure you're the age you claim? Your posts on this board make more sense and are more on point than a huge number made on this board. Dude, come age thirty-five, you need to be running for a specific office to effect some serious change in this country. I honestly believe you could do it, too! :)

/Thread Hijack
 
Jason, are you sure you're the age you claim? Your posts on this board make more sense and are more on point than a huge number made on this board. Dude, come age thirty-five, you need to be running for a specific office to effect some serious change in this country. I honestly believe you could do it, too! :)

/Thread Hijack

I certainly appreciate your comments, Kenny. I am truly privileged to be able to effectively communicate with folks like you over a web board at my age. I absolutely attribute my success in aviation to my family, friends, and the folks that make up this community. I simply could not have matured nor achieved as many of my successes to the extent I have without this group. That said, I'll be counting on your vote in about 18 years time. :D

The operational questions that will always put a smile on a controller's face are those that he/she can provide a detailed, rational answer to and ultimately simplify the both the controller's and pilot's workloads in the future. The rational part doesn't always happen, mind you...it is the FAA. :redface:
 
I have a question for you Jason. Recently listening to JFK TWR, I've heard twice now, (I thinking they were landing the 4's) the ATCer severely reprimanding the pilot who said something (I think) about the fact that he was holding short of the runway. He responded in a tone almost like a mother disciplining a child, to the effect of "don't say that on this freq sir, that's very dangerous, and someone could get killed."

Would you have any idea as to what the pilot said that would result in the pilot getting chewed out as he did?

Thanks,

Purdue
 
I have a question for you Jason. Recently listening to JFK TWR, I've heard twice now, (I thinking they were landing the 4's) the ATCer severely reprimanding the pilot who said something (I think) about the fact that he was holding short of the runway. He responded in a tone almost like a mother disciplining a child, to the effect of "don't say that on this freq sir, that's very dangerous, and someone could get killed."

Would you have any idea as to what the pilot said that would result in the pilot getting chewed out as he did?

Thanks,

Purdue

It's hard to give a definitive answer without many details, but it could have been the ground controller getting angry that an international carrier was holding short of a runway that the aircraft was already cleared to cross twice, or something like that, backing things up at JFK even further. Spotty English and a thick foreign accent doesn't always jive with a new york attitude.

Perhaps you can dig up the archives to see if you can find it: http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php
 
Thanks Jason.

Unfortunately I did not note the time/day. (DOH!) I do remember being somewhat surprised, as they both were Jetblue flights, and it was from the TWR controller, whose response was not the typical "frustrated, chewing out" tone.

BTW-What benefit is there by asking "What taxi way do you need to enter the ramp?"

Thanks!



It's hard to give a definitive answer without many details, but it could have been the ground controller getting angry that an international carrier was holding short of a runway that the aircraft was already cleared to cross twice, or something like that, backing things up at JFK even further. Spotty English and a thick foreign accent doesn't always jive with a new york attitude.

Perhaps you can dig up the archives to see if you can find it: http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php
 
Recently listening to JFK TWR, I've heard twice now, (I thinking they were landing the 4's) the ATCer severely reprimanding the pilot who said something (I think) about the fact that he was holding short of the runway. He responded in a tone almost like a mother disciplining a child, to the effect of "don't say that on this freq sir, that's very dangerous, and someone could get killed."

Would you have any idea as to what the pilot said that would result in the pilot getting chewed out as he did?
This is also going to be a guess, but at busy airports of the airline variety they don't want you calling on tower frequency saying you are holding short ready for takeoff. They expect you to switch from ground to tower and monitor the frequency quietly. I think this is because they don't want so much extra talk which could block other transmissions. Sometimes there is a sign to that effect near the hold short line but I think it's generally just expected that you know it. I got chewed out once at SFO for saying that I was at whatever runway, ready for takeoff. The controller sarcastically said something like, "I can see you sitting there..."
 
Sorry Grant for the thread hijack.:(

Any chance to add one to that tour this Saturday?:D


Purdue
 
Sorry Grant for the thread hijack.:(

Any chance to add one to that tour this Saturday?:D


Purdue
I wish! They had a limited number of slots available on a first-come, first served basis.

HOWEVER, I was at a Palwaukee Airport Pilot Association meeting last night, and they mentioned that they were going to be touring C90 (Chicago Approach Control) on Feb 27th. I don't know if there are still slots available for that or if you need to be a member of PAPA, but you could try.
Jack Sheridan is the program chair for PAPA, and may be able to give you more info. I'm not going to post his email on a searchable forum, but you can find it in their PAPA Sez newsletter at http://www.pwkpilots.org/JAN08PAPASEZ.pdf.
 
Thanks Jason. BTW-What benefit is there by asking "What taxi way do you need to enter the ramp?"

It allows the ground controller to taxi the aircraft to the ramp via the appropriate taxiway(s). With the extremely complicated taxiway system complex at JFK, the controller needs to know where the aircraft ultimately needs to be. Foreign pilots somehow have a hard time answering this question.
 
I wish! They had a limited number of slots available on a first-come, first served basis.

HOWEVER, I was at a Palwaukee Airport Pilot Association meeting last night, and they mentioned that they were going to be touring C90 (Chicago Approach Control) on Feb 27th. I don't know if there are still slots available for that or if you need to be a member of PAPA, but you could try.
Jack Sheridan is the program chair for PAPA, and may be able to give you more info. I'm not going to post his email on a searchable forum, but you can find it in their PAPA Sez newsletter at http://www.pwkpilots.org/JAN08PAPASEZ.pdf.

Thanks for the info Grant. I'll send him an email....

Purdue
 
Thanks for the info guys.

This is also going to be a guess, but at busy airports of the airline variety they don't want you calling on tower frequency saying you are holding short ready for takeoff. They expect you to switch from ground to tower and monitor the frequency quietly. I think this is because they don't want so much extra talk which could block other transmissions. Sometimes there is a sign to that effect near the hold short line but I think it's generally just expected that you know it. I got chewed out once at SFO for saying that I was at whatever runway, ready for takeoff. The controller sarcastically said something like, "I can see you sitting there..."

That was my first guess also. What made me doubt that it was that was the "You could get someone killed" part of the transmission. Sigh. I'll just keep a closer ear tuned to my speakers....

Have you looked at the airport diagram?

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0801/00610AD.PDF

I know Jet Blue alone uses gates at least two different terminals, possibly three.

Yep, however not since I've heard this particular transmission, I'll have to go back to doing that, thanks.




It allows the ground controller to taxi the aircraft to the ramp via the appropriate taxiway(s). With the extremely complicated taxiway system complex at JFK, the controller needs to know where the aircraft ultimately needs to be. Foreign pilots somehow have a hard time answering this question.


Thanks Jason. One more question for you.:yes: There is a fellow classmate of mine in my Aviation class who is going to school at Daniel Webster for ATC. He keeps bragging about the fact that he is going to be making $64K right out of the academy in OKC. I didn't want to burst his bubble, but that figure can't be right, can it? It has been a while since I had that salary spread sheet, but if memory serves, starting salary was around $32K, no?

Thanks,

Purdue
 
Thanks Jason. One more question for you.:yes: There is a fellow classmate of mine in my Aviation class who is going to school at Daniel Webster for ATC. He keeps bragging about the fact that he is going to be making $64K right out of the academy in OKC. I didn't want to burst his bubble, but that figure can't be right, can it? It has been a while since I had that salary spread sheet, but if memory serves, starting salary was around $32K, no?

Thanks,

Purdue

He'll be making $31,700 out of the academy. The closest he'll find himself to making $64,000 is when he reaches D2 at a Level 12 facility or a D3 at a Level 11 facility. This usually takes anywhere from 2-4 years.

Perhaps he was given misleading information from the old (now nullified) contract. The new paybands can be found in the "White Book" or the FAA's new imposed contract.
 
I asked one group if Grant was with them and they said, "No."
Sorry, I missed you, Grant.:blueplane:
ApacheBob
I was there and looked for you, but didn't see you. I was with the group handling arrivals from the northwest and departures to the west. I plugged in and listed to one of the high altitude guys handle NW arrivals between FL340 and FL370 (or was it FL360?). Sorry I missed you!
 
Well, we had a good time meeting with ZAU today. And, before I say anything else, let me tell my Chicago compadres that there will be a user symposium on Feb 27 at which the users (e.g. the airlines, corporate GA, and US) get to meet with the FAA and provide our input. If you're in the Chicago area and might be able to attend all or part of the day, drop me a PM and I'll try to get you info. I don't have any details yet, and they are space limited, so I'm not promising anything!

That said, I did manage to learn a lot and got a number of questions answered. Note that some of these aren't official FAA answers but rather the answers of a 26 year veteran. I'll not post his name here, though I'm sure Bob knows it :).

The first thing I learned that I hadn't really realized before was the general configuration of the area's airspace. ZAU handles the high-level routes, as most of you know, and hands off to the underlying approach control with the agreed-upon spacing. They also set up spacing for planes traveling on to the 1st tier centers; those immediately surrounding ZAU. These include (from memory) Minneapolis (ZMP), Kansas City (ZKC), Indianapolis (ZID), and Cincinnati (ZOB). I thought there were more than those four. Bob?

One thing that was illuminating was that they do departures out of ORD on the cardinal headings (N, S, E, W), and arrivals come in on the "cornerposts" (NE, NW, SW, SE). That was quite evident when we looked at a conglomeration of tracks.

With optimal conditions, ORD can handle about 100 arrivals per hour. When we were there, they had the arrival rate pegged at about 76/hr. Because it was a Saturday morning, they hadn't needed to put a delay or metering program in place.

The underlying approach controls for ZAU include KORD (to 13K), KRFD (to 10K), and KMKE (to 13K). They handle traffic management into KORD, KMKE, and KMDW.

I and others asked a number of questions. I've paraphrased the questions and answers below. Note that these are not necessarily official FAA policy answers!

Q: How to find out what the letters of agreement are?
A: He wasn't sure where to look at this time, but he is trying to get them included on a ZAU website they're putting together. This is the same site at which one would register for the symposium, and will be ZAU-specific.

Q: How will the new runways at KORD affect area departures & arrivals?
A: For the most part, those changes have already been incorporated into the patterns.

Q: What's going on with hirings?
A: They are in a period of open hires until Feb 15th. If interested, go to http://www.faa.gov/jobs/job_opportunities/airtraffic_controllers/ You'll spend 13 months training in OKC, where you're salary will be 16K/yr. After graduating there, you'll move to the center (in this example) where you'll go through another 12 weeks of training before moving to the floor, where you'll be working with an experienced controller for 3 - 5 years. Out of KOKC your salary will go to $37K/yr, and once you make CPC (Certified Professional Controller?) you can be looking at $100K/yr and up. With overtime, you can be looking at upwards of $200K/yr. Currently this training program is about 5 years, but they're trying to get it to 3 years, partly because of the backlog. At this point, they're trying to do 11,000 new hires in 10 years! They have an example in ZAU where someone has made it through in 27 months. They also pointed out that they currently have a mandatory retirement age of 56 years, but he expects that to change in the next few years, or at least be interpreted more loosly, as more and more of the people who started in the early '80s as he did retire.

Q: At what altitude should we fly if we want to stay with Center rather than be bounced to each individual approach.
A: Generally, 11K and above.

Q (of their meteorologists, who are on duty from 5AM - 9PM, contracted from NWS): Are PIREPS worthwhile?
A: Absolutely! Sometimes they don't make it all the way down to where they're supposed to go, but ATC is supposed to take them (you don't need to contact FSS to file a PIREP) and they definitely pay attention to them. They go to both NWS and the center meteorologist.

Q: What is the most useful thing we as pilots can do to help the controllers?
A: Listen to the instructions and give an accurate readback. Additionally, if you have a problem or suspect that you won't be able to meet the request (e.g. climb 2000'/min to BEARS) let them know right away with what you can do. (e.g. Unable, but can give you 750'/min to 7,500'). This allows them to develop and implement an alternate plan.

Q: Is the proposed new Peotone airport going to help?
A: No. This is being proposed solely for political purposes. In this instance, the planes coming out of EON would need to be held really low and worked around the traffic out of ORD and MDW. Just doesn't make sense.

Q: Does flagging a flight as Angel Flight or Compassion make a difference in handling?
A (from other Angel Flight pilots): Yes. They were able to get handling when using that call sign that they would not normally have received, including following V7 along the lakefront to avoid an overwater flight segment.

I'm sure I'll think of other tidbits later, but this should be enough to digest for now. There are a number of questions I wanted to ask but just didn't have time, though maybe I'll take some time off work to go to the symposium and ask them there.
 
The income potential for these guys is pretty good but dang, do they earn it. It comes with unpredictable stress levels. I've wondered what their scheduling is usually like.

In listening to JFK tower, I'm often confused since it seems like I hear some of these guys even more than five days a week. Airline pilots have fairly limited times within a given period. Why shouldn't this also apply to controllers just to manage the fatigue and stress?

Jason or someone else have an answer?
 
The income potential for these guys is pretty good but dang, do they earn it. It comes with unpredictable stress levels. I've wondered what their scheduling is usually like.

In listening to JFK tower, I'm often confused since it seems like I hear some of these guys even more than five days a week. Airline pilots have fairly limited times within a given period. Why shouldn't this also apply to controllers just to manage the fatigue and stress?

Jason or someone else have an answer?

It's important to realize that pay varies based on the level of facility. A CPC at a level 12 facility does indeed make a six-figure salary, but keep in mind it takes at least 5 years at the minimum to reach this level, typically 6-7 years with the current training backup.

Many controllers work a six day week, 10 hours per day. In short, the reason why duty regulations regarding controller fatigue and stress do not exist is that the FAA has not come up with any meaningful regulations. Even if they did, they would break their own rule(s) as revealed in the NTSB investigation of the the Comair 5191 crash in Lexington back in August 2006. Fortunately, the duty regs for 135 and 121 operators are very different and are strictly enforced, but that still leaves a rather large gap on the other side of the system.
 
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How 'bout this what is the magic password to get flight following, and what are the preferred IFR routes arounf the Bravo.

Heck Pete, I can answer those. ;)

1. There's no magic password for flight following from Chicago Center. I've never ever had them deny it. I think maybe they feel guilty because of, and are compensating for, their brethren at Chicago Approach.

2. File to KELSI or SHOOF, otherwise use the preferred routes from the AIM (use a chunk of the RFD->SBN one for example). I've never been rerouted when using one of the above. V177, on the other hand, does NOT work. "Dakota 8183X, cleared as fil... Uhhh, that's not gonna work. Taxi to 21, we'll have your reroute in a couple of minutes." Doh!
 
How 'bout this what is the magic password to get flight following, and what are the preferred IFR routes arounf the Bravo.

Pete
There are none. If you are on FF from Chicago center, it's Squawk VFR, good day. Nobody even says you can try on 133.35 becuase "they can't heeeeaaar you!". They aren't gonna give it.

They won't keep you tucked in under the Bravo , either. they give you EON on the south, RFD on the west, and ENW on the north. That's 90 nmiles.

The preferred IFR route around the Bravo is Direct at 16,000. I kid you not.

Avoid BEARZ Intersection. It's where all the Knox3 arrivals cross at 11K.
 
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This is also going to be a guess, but at busy airports of the airline variety they don't want you calling on tower frequency saying you are holding short ready for takeoff. They expect you to switch from ground to tower and monitor the frequency quietly. I think this is because they don't want so much extra talk which could block other transmissions.

From the 7110.65:

3-9-9. TAKEOFF CLEARANCE
a. When only one runway is active, issue takeoff clearance.
PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF.
NOTE-
Turbine-powered aircraft may be considered ready for takeoff when they reach the runway unless they advise otherwise.


Piston powered aircraft are, or should be, expected to advise the controller when they are ready for takeoff. Generally that's with the tower controller when they are holding short and ready.


I've wondered what their scheduling is usually like.


Scheduling can and does vary significantly by facility. Some facilities have permanent days off, some have rotating days off. Many work a late evening the first day back, early evening the next day, a mid day or morning the next, a morning followed by a midnight shift the next. Some work permanent day, permanent night, or permanent midnight shifts.
 
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