Any Items on a Sectional that are Useless?

ARFlyer

ARFlyer

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ARFlyer
I got in a debate at my local field today between some older CFIs, a few pilots, and myself. I asked one of the pilots, who I'm friends with, if he could tell me the LAT/LONG of a random airport I pointed out. He said nope and that it was most likely useless information. The other older CFIs all agree that LAT/LONG questions are for *******s and that no one should ever need to know or should use them.

I stood my ground saying that everything on the sectional is useful information and that any pilot should be able to use all information contained within. I asked a few more questions about the symbols for fire towers, semi-annual lakes, and various not often seen airport symbols. Very few of them knew what those symbols were, much less cared.
 
I agree with you, and I've been a CFI since 1978, not that means anything special other than being an old fart. I've sat in on some orals and most DPEs and/or FAA Inspectors got pretty deep into the charts. That FAA book, think it's called Aeronautical Chart Guide, is very thorough and I always recommended my students get a copy. It covers VFR as well as IFR charts. Only about $10-12 for a copy.
 
I've known some pilots with GPS databases without full coverage making a user waypoint with the lat/long of a airport not in their database.
 
Personally I like the book form, but that's because I'm comfortable with that form. Nothing wrong w/ reading it online either. But thanks for providing the link. Hope some students and/or rated pilots take a look.
 
It's also useful to know that the tic marks for latitude are 1 nm apart (not so for longitude, of course).
 
ATC uses VOR/DME instead of lat/long. They can deal with that better than lat/long on a flight plan.

One problem is there seems to be three or four formats for degrees.minutes.seconds.
There is degrees.decimal, degrees.minutes.decimal and the aforementioned degrees.minutes.seconds. I once phoned TRACON and asked which format they used and his reply was "where did you get this number"?
 
If the purpose of sectionals is VFR navigation, and Victor airways are for instrument flights, I've never understood why Victor airways are on sectionals.
 
Van Johnston said:
If the purpose of sectionals is VFR navigation, and Victor airways are for instrument flights, I've never understood why Victor airways are on sectionals.
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VFR aircraft can use airways too.

Plus collision avoidance.

Plus 91.303(d).

Like why show MTRs when those are for the military?
 
ARFlyer said:
I asked one of the pilots, who I'm friends with, if he could tell me the LAT/LONG of a random airport I pointed out. He said nope and that it was most likely useless information. The other older CFIs all agree that LAT/LONG questions are for *******s and that no one should ever need to know or should use them.
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They say that as if it's something difficult or challenging or takes special skill to learn. :eek:

The lines certainly are far from useless anyway if you want to use a plotter or still have maximum elevation figures.
 
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dmspilot said:
They say that as if it's something difficult or challenging or takes special skill to learn. :eek:
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Because it's different airspace?

Flying in G airspace, when you cross over a victor you're going into E until you fly out the other side.
 
So what actual use do you have for identifying the lay long of a charted airport? It's a nice skill to have, but not exactly terribly useful in the real world...
 
VFR aircraft can use airways too.
- understand, but what is the operational advantage of doing so?

Plus collision avoidance.
- How so? Do you want the VFR traffic on the airway with you, or off the airway? I would think you would want the airway to yourself.

Plus 91.303(d).
- ok, if I ever learned that 30yrs ago (when it was 91.71(c)) I quickly forgot it. But this makes sense.

Like why show MTRs when those are for the military?
- because I remember learning to be vigilant regarding MTRs. I don't recall a similar admonition regarding victor airways.
 
In aviation, the only time I've used lat/long is in CAP, search grids are designated by them. Maybe if I was in Korea and wanted to make sure I didn't accidentally visit the North.

Otherwise never. I'm sure there are ways to use lat/long but I never do.
 
Van Johnston said:
VFR aircraft can use airways too.
- understand, but what is the operational advantage of doing so?
Click to expand...

Well, I can think of two hypothetically, although I can't personally remember ever using a Victor airway VFR, at least not deliberately.
1. They are flight tested to ensure reception especially which is nice to know if it exceeds the normal service volume (e.g. 40nm).
2. The radials and distances are printed on the chart so it's somewhat more convenient if you don't have a straightedge handy to line up with the compass rose, which I guess would be especially helpful in a diversion type scenario.

Van Johnston said:
Plus collision avoidance.
- How so?
Click to expand...
I meant it as exercise caution as there may be heavier traffic on them (AC 90-48D, Pilot's Role in Collision Avoidance).
 
I used lat/long to find sites in the middle of nowhere. That was after we had GPS. Before that it was radial/distance or look out the window.
 
1. They are flight tested to ensure reception especially which is nice to know if it exceeds the normal service volume (e.g. 40nm).

- If you are at the proper altitude, which is only shown on the low altitude en route chart, correct?
 
dmspilot said:
The radials and distances are printed on the chart so it's somewhat more convenient if you don't have a straightedge handy to line up with the compass rose, which I guess would be especially helpful in a diversion type scenario.
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In the prehistoric era (BMG -- "Before the Magenta Line") that was S.O.P. for VOR-based VFR cross-country planning. Victor airways almost always linked the navaids to be used anyway, and the pre-drawn lines and pre-calculated magnetic courses were a welcome convenience. Distances are a fairly recent addition to VFR charts.
 
dmspilot said:
Like why show MTRs when those are for the military?
Click to expand...

So you know where to keep your head on a swivel and don't dally in the route.
400-500ft AGL and 540KGS aircraft in the route.
 
James331 said:
Because it's different airspace?

Flying in G airspace, when you cross over a victor you're going into E until you fly out the other side.
Click to expand...
That's true, but it raises another question. Areas of class E with a floor of 1200 AGL associated with victor airways seem to be charted directly on sectionals. For example, look at the airways coming to the west from ABR. There are some areas of class G airspace up to 14,500 but where the airways go through the chart shows class E from 1200 AGL.

But it looks like there is an exception not far from there. V510 west from JMS flies through an area where the ceiling of the class G airspace is charted as 3400 MSL. There are two towers close to the airway (looks like less than 4 nm off the centerline to my eyes, which are admittedly very tired right now) charted as 2197 (230) and 2242 (280), meaning that the ground is at 1962-1967 MSL. Add 1200 and you get 3162-3167 MSL for the floor of the class E. Or put the other way, the floor of the class E is about 1400 AGL.

So, one of three things must be true: The charted class E airspace that happens to match up with airways in most of the country is a coincidence, V510 west of JMS is an exception to how class E airspace associated with airways is charted, or V510 west of JMS is an exception to the rule that the class E airspace associated with an airway has a floor of 1200 AGL. Anyone know the answer?

For the usefulness of charting victor airways on the sectional charts other than to show where there is class E airspace down to 1200 AGL, don't forget that there are IFR users who may want to know what's below their route, either to deal with an emergency or otherwise.
 
Heck... Heard someone just yesterday asking for a reroute.... They gave lat/long fixes to define the route. ATC didn't flinch.
 
If those darn little words didn't actually MEAN something, and were just arm candy for the bigger words, life would be SO much easier!
 
There is a
Pilawt said:
Here's a landmark label you don't often see on a chart -- and it's in California (Hearst Castle).

View attachment 45284
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Meanwhile, the Billings sectional does not have anything charted for the Fort Union trading post, which is a national historic site that stands out like a sore thumb and would be very useful for visual navigation. There is some clutter with the railroad, river, and power lines in that vicinity, but for VFR navigation the fort would be the most useful.

And then not far away they charted, with 4 little open circles, "oil wells." There are an average of 2.5 oil wells per square mile in the county where that gem is located. So I declare "oil wells" in western North Dakota to be a useless item on the sectional chart. (It was probably the 1950s oil boom that produced oil wells in small enough clusters to justify that one.)
 
iamtheari said:
And then not far away they charted, with 4 little open circles, "oil wells." There are an average of 2.5 oil wells per square mile in the county where that gem is located. So I declare "oil wells" in western North Dakota to be a useless item on the sectional chart. (It was probably the 1950s oil boom that produced oil wells in small enough clusters to justify that one.)
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That's just so you know you're not in Wisconsin.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
 
iamtheari said:
There is a
Meanwhile, the Billings sectional does not have anything charted for the Fort Union trading post, which is a national historic site that stands out like a sore thumb and would be very useful for visual navigation. There is some clutter with the railroad, river, and power lines in that vicinity, but for VFR navigation the fort would be the most useful.
Click to expand...

I had a delightful email exchange with someone from the FAA Charting Office (or whatever the official name is) about something unrelated, but they were incredibly nice and helpful and we ended up chatting about my flight training. I bet would love to hear info like this, so they can add useful information to the charts.
 
Joshuajayg said:
That's just so you know you're not in Wisconsin
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Do they chart "trees" in Wisconsin to help in that distinction? :)
onezuludelta said:
I had a delightful email exchange with someone from the FAA Charting Office (or whatever the official name is) about something unrelated, but they were incredibly nice and helpful and we ended up chatting about my flight training. I bet would love to hear info like this, so they can add useful information to the charts.
Click to expand...
I found some official information on how to do this: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/aero_guide/

Maybe I'll take some pictures and get the exact GPS position and send it in.
 
I fly exclusively VFR with nothing for navigation but a compass and a tablet. I wish I could unclutter the Sectional on the tablet so it shows only items needed for a VFR flight.

I'd also like an option to show the names of towns as my old Lowrance did.
 
tinerj said:
I fly exclusively VFR with nothing for navigation but a compass and a tablet. I wish I could unclutter the Sectional on the tablet so it shows only items needed for a VFR flight.

I'd also like an option to show the names of towns as my old Lowrance did.
Click to expand...
Your de-clutter is looking outside:D
 
Everskyward said:
I used lat/long to find sites in the middle of nowhere. That was after we had GPS. Before that it was radial/distance or look out the window.
Click to expand...

That's is a good point. I had a friend give me his airport location via lat/long.

Pilawt said:
Here's a landmark label you don't often see on a chart -- and it's in California (Hearst Castle).

View attachment 45284
Click to expand...

Something you'd find in Europe not thinking it could be found here.

Kritchlow said:
Heck... Heard someone just yesterday asking for a reroute.... They gave lat/long fixes to define the route. ATC didn't flinch.
Click to expand...

A friend of mine mentioned that he was given that by ATC in the past. I've never personally heard it.
 
Some interesting things here. Sawmills, OK; temple, yes there is one and it's pretty prominent; ranches, hmmm; bldg, really?

Screen Shot 2016-05-05 at 19.11.58.png
 
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