Any good landing tips while on final?

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Dan Gordon

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I'm right at the point of soloing, but am having an issue on final. When I'm about to land I have a tendency to overcorrect and rather than tease the plane down to the ground by holding the nose, I flare a bit too soon. Any good tips on maintaining the right nose attitude so i don't bounce the plane or balloon. I'm flying a Piper Warrior, I have good speed control, usually at 70 Knots on final.
 
Don’t take offense, but it doesn’t sound like you’re ready to solo. Would second the suggestion of getting some more practice with your instructor.
 
Hold the nose in position during the flare, don't let it drop. This means more pressure on the yoke as it tries to drop as the airplane slows.
 
Look at the far end of the runway or at least further down the runway. When you look close to the nose of the aircraft things appear to be happening faster than they are in fact happening. Look further down the runway and you will get a better perspective. Landings are slow flight over the runway. Once you begin to flare at the correct altitude it's just a matter of trying to fly to the other end with the power off. Since this will be impossible you will land.
 
Dan Gordon said:
...rather than tease the plane down to the ground by holding the nose, I flare a bit too soon.
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Rather than teasing the plane down you should ease it down. ;) To do that, you need to know how your height above the ground is changing every picosecond of the flare. You can only tell that by focusing your eyes on a moving spot relative to your eye — too close, no good — too far, no good either. Obstructed view? Also, no good. The sweet spot moves closer to your eye as you decelerate and gets blocked from view if you try to keep looking over the nose as you raise it higher in the flare. So, you must learn to keep nimble eyes searching for the spot that gives the best perspective in the moment to detect your rate of change in altitude. Then you must learn to coordinate the back pressure to ease (not tease) your descent rate to zero as your wheels reach the runway right at stalling speed. You don't "hold" the nose and wait for a landing, if that's what you've been imagining. You've got to be a lot busier than that. And the spot you're looking for will be to the side of the nose not above it.
 
Bill Kershner put it well…

7962107524_302d1cb126_z.jpg
 
Almost all of my first 400 hours were in a Warrior, a few in a Citabria.
Warriors are so docile and easy to land, don't over think it. When you feel it come into ground effect, if not already at full idle, and you have the runway made, pull the throttle back all the way, and only slightly raise the above level, you don't need to land in some crazy nose high flare. Once the mains are firmly down, and your speed is low enough that there is no way it can fly again, pull the yoke fully back, and let the nose gently settle to earth.
A Warrior is such a great trainer, and flies so beautifully and predictably, that if you get to into your own head, and over think it, only then can you really botch a landing.
Just let it settle with as little input as possible by you.
Not sure why some pilots want to flare so high, or so much.
If someone around you instructs in a dragger, hire them for a few hours, it may break the urge to over flare.
 
FastEddieB said:
Bill Kershner put it well…

7962107524_302d1cb126_z.jpg
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Kerschner had a lot of good stuff. Some parts of his book should be required reading for PPL students.

He has a picture outlining the round-out and flare. Too many pilots hold the approach speed right into ground effect and then wonder why they have so much trouble with landings. The power needs to come off sooner and the nose raised so that the speed begins to bleed off. This is supposed to happen at 15 to 30 feet off the ground, not in ground effect. The airplane should arrive at the surface with minimal flying speed so it doesn't float or bounce or anything else.

Ground effect also lowers the stall speed somewhat. It interferes with the upflow ahead of the wing that is caused by the low pressure above the leading edge. The proximity of the ground inhibits that upflow angle, reducing the AoA a bit.
 
Landing is the easiest part of the flight. No chance of getting lost, who cares if a storm is heading your way and only 10 miles out, and if the engine quits, at least fire and rescue crews are close by, not searching 50,000 square miles of forest and lakes.
And if you have to pee, you know that relief is minutes away, not hours.
I wasn't even nervous about my first landing, nor landing 50, 500, or 5000.
 
On final I have the engine at idle power. Then fly it all the way down to the runway and level it as close as you can to touching down without touching down. Look out and down the runway away from the aircraft keeping the nose in your view.

Now get stingy with the airplane and every time it tries to settle tell it "no" by using just enough back pressure to keep it in a landing attitude (slightly nose high). You get to play this game until the airplane runs out of flying speed and the mains touch.

You are not done. As Whitney noted keep that nose wheel off the ground until it cannot be held up with the yoke all the way back. But you are still not done until the engine is shut down and the brakes are set.

I also agree that a few hours of tailwheel will cure a few of those ills.
 
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I struggled with starting my flare too high just like you are, and I was following all the tricks - looking way down the runway, etc. Two things helped - one, I got a cushion to sit on so I had better visibility. I'm only a few inches over 5', so I couldn't actually see over the nose of the Archer I was flying until I got the cushion. Being able to see helped a lot, and something you want to fix if you are short like me. The other thing that helped was using my peripheral vision. There is a moment as you come down close to the runway when the runway seems to widen and flatten out of the corner of your eye. I started waiting until that moment to begin my flare/pitch up, and I have yet to flare too high since! :)
 
Don’t overthink it. Let your instructor show you a good one and try to repeat what they do. Landings take getting a feel for what the plane is trying to do and making small corrections all the way to the ground. They will get better with practice and time.
 
FastEddieB said:
This one?

I think 10-4 is what I’d recommend for students. Until enough skill is acquired, 10-5 can result in running out of speed too early and high with an associated drop.
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We started with the second picture when teaching PPLs. Primacy. What is first seen, or taught, is what sticks the firmest in the mind, and is most difficult to change.

At altitude, set up a normal approach glide, with flap, and learn the stuff. See how low that ASI gets before the airplane stalls. Most pilots fly approach speed into ground effect because they're afraid of stalling on final. They need to see just how slow it gets before it lets go, and get over that fear.

This one shows it. The speeds given are specific to a certain model of airplane, but see how they are decreased well before touchdown, not while floating a thousand feet down the runway in ground effect, waiting for the airplane to quit flying.

upload_2022-6-20_20-27-32.jpeg

We've all seen, I think, this video of a Warrior pilot arriving at the surface with way too much speed:


And another one:


And again:


Once again, airspeed and angle of attack are firmly related, and too much speed means a nose-low attitude that puts that nosewheel on the runway first, kicking the nose back into the air so that AoA increases and the airplane flies up, which the pilot reflexively fixes by pushing the nose down. The real problem is the speed and little or no flaring.

The other risk is wheelbarrowing. Like so. Note the nosewheel on the runway while the mains are an inch or two still off the ground. This often results in a wrecked airplane. In a crosswind it gets deadly.

 
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Dan Thomas said:
We started with the second picture when teaching PPLs. Primacy. What is first seen, or taught, is what sticks the firmest in the mind, and is most difficult to change.
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I don’t think we’re in basic disagreement.

My rule-of-thumb is to begin to break the glide - begin the roundout - at about one wingspan above the ground. So I’m not swooping into ground effect at final approach speed - which can result in a lot of float - but bleeding off just enough airspeed to arrive just above the runway at just over stall speed. Works for me!

That last video looks familiar. Students used to driving a car will revert to trying to “drive” the plane back to the centerline. Even leaning in that direction for all the good it does. He was very lucky not to take out a runway light!
 
70 kts is too fast. The POH number is 63 kts at MGW. Solo in my Warrior I'm under 60 kts as I cross the fence and start the round out. At my home drome the fence is literally at the south end of the 2600' of asphalt.

The slower your roundout and flare the easier it is to keep the nose up.
At this point in your training, if you bounce once, GO AROUND.

Practice slow flight with your CFI. You will be quite amazed at how slow, with full flaps, the Warrior will be controllable. Solo I've kept it level at 40 kts. But, during this particular slow flight training, it doesn't matter if you can hold altitude as long as the plane is controllable.
 
FastEddieB said:
My rule-of-thumb is to begin to break the glide - begin the roundout - at about one wingspan above the ground. So I’m not swooping into ground effect at final approach speed - which can result in a lot of float - but bleeding off just enough airspeed to arrive just above the runway at just over stall speed. Works for me!
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Exactly.
 
that last video takes me back to the time my CFI got his boot stuck under the right rudder pedal...and off into the grass we went.... I guess I was stomping on his foot pretty hard
 
70 knots on final seems a touch fast for a warrior. I had trouble at first too. Being afraid to get too close to Vso. Really nailing the speed helps that ground effect balloo and stall that I (and sounds like you as well) initially had trouble with.
 
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Whitney said:
Landing is the easiest part of the flight. No chance of getting lost, who cares if a storm is heading your way and only 10 miles out, and if the engine quits, at least fire and rescue crews are close by, not searching 50,000 square miles of forest and lakes.
And if you have to pee, you know that relief is minutes away, not hours.
I wasn't even nervous about my first landing, nor landing 50, 500, or 5000.
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My third flight and maybe landing 8 overall my instructor pulled throttle on downwind. Simulated engine out. Was my best landing of the day.
 
Racerx said:
My third flight and maybe landing 8 overall my instructor pulled throttle on downwind. Simulated engine out. Was my best landing of the day.
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The more difficult the approach, shorter the strip is, or more sketchy the surface is, usually has my landings perfect, because it makes me be on my A game.

An easy approach, good surface, and over 1200' long, my landings are pretty good, but they lack the need for me to be super focused, so I guess I'm so relaxed they are just good.
My worst landing in the past decade was on 11,000' ridiculously easyand paved. My mind just really wasn't in it, because it was like who cares. The next time I was at that airport I asked for their shortest runway, which is still huge, and has planes parked at the end of it.
I wish all airports had a 1000' long, 40' wide, grass option.
 
Whitney said:
The more difficult the approach, shorter the strip is, or more sketchy the surface is, usually has my landings perfect, because it makes me be on my A game.

An easy approach, good surface, and over 1200' long, my landings are pretty good, but they lack the need for me to be super focused, so I guess I'm so relaxed they are just good.
My worst landing in the past decade was on 11,000' ridiculously easyand paved. My mind just really wasn't in it, because it was like who cares. The next time I was at that airport I asked for their shortest runway, which is still huge, and has planes parked at the end of it.
I wish all airports had a 1000' long, 40' wide, grass option.
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I've got that T-shirt & mug too! Was going to a fly-in BBQ and coming down final looking at a 100' wide and 5500' long runway on a gorgeous sunny and very calm day. My mind was already in the shade tasting that scrumptious pork with a large glass of sweet tea.

I didn't buy anything and we survived the landing but I'm really thankful that no one saw it ... :D
 
Most bad landings I've made is because I added extra corrections that weren't needed because there was nothing wrong. So resist the temptation to make things better in the round out and flare to make thing better - and they will be.
 
One question I would ask the OP, are you sure its 70 knots or 70 mph? I ask because a Warrior may have an airspeed indicator with either unit. 70 mph sounds a lot more normal. A pre-solo student may get the terms mixed up. That's where working with your CFI is a much better idea that taking advice from some guys on the internet. Kind of the too many cooks in the kitchen type of situation.

I'll give you the same advice my wife gives me when I go flying, "Fly good, don't suck!"
 
Learn to land by not landing. Get it down to a foot off the runway by the 500 ft marker and hold it there until it's time to go around.
 
Perfect landings every time just sets everyone's expectations too high. Like my kid. She's used to not feeling like we are even on the ground. Went to an airport with a shorter runway and I wanted to make sure I got the mains on the ground and got stopped in a safe distance. So the landing was (appropriately) firm (meaning you could feel the mains touch and there was a tyre chirp). Right on centerline.

What did I get for my safe, textbook landing? "Dad, what was that? I felt that one. Pfft."

:D But seriously, yeah practice with your CFI and nail those airspeeds.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Learn to land by not landing. Get it down to a foot off the runway by the 500 ft marker and hold it there until it's time to go around.
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That’s more or less the way I teach landings. Nail your airspeed. Identify (or better yet, set) your aiming point. As that point starts to slide under the nose (approximately a wingspan above the runway), round out with eyes down the runway and just fly level until the plane starts to sink. Keep increasing back pressure enough to hold it off the runway and do not let it land.
 
Deelee said:
What did I get for my safe, textbook landing? "Dad, what was that? I felt that one. Pfft."
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The preflight can be perfect. The runup done spot on. Radio work better than any time before. Solid takeoff and tremendously smooth control inputs. A flight that feels as if it's on rails. Nailing the pattern entry and turns like a professional!

Bounce the landing and you're the World's Worst Pilot Ever! "How'd you manage to talk someone into letting you near an airplane?" :rofl:
 
I always keep one hand on the throttle as well. If you flare a little high are slow and start to sink, adding a little bit (just a touch) of power will help ease the airplane down.
 
Daleandee said:
Bounce the landing and you're the World's Worst Pilot Ever!
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So true! Take your kid to an amazingly cool place where not many people get to go (island with no way to get there other than aeroplane or boat)..... promise her ice-cream, beach, lunch at a restaurant where they pretty much get the crabs right out of the bay.... perfect pattern (oh, also giving amazing views of the island)... then let the tyres squeak on landing and that's the thanks I get. Heck I'll even post the video she took of it (portrait style?? This is what the kids are doing these days..... :( )..... https://youtube.com/shorts/bHY_lyWR6uA It wasn't THAT bad, ya'll..

And yeah, keep yer hand on that throttle.... you can hear I made some power changes during base/final to account for getting a bit low..... wanted to hit the exact right spot on this one (which I did!) and still the kid gives me guff...
 
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