Antique Transponder went Belly Up, ADS-B?

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

Final Approach
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Mount Pleasant,Texas
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I recently injured my shoulder and can’t handle the manual gear on my Mooney. I am buying one in Longview ( I hangar in Mount Pleasant only 45 NM away) with electric gear. I flew my Cessna 140 there this morning to check on progress. My Cessna has a custom panel with six pack and centerstack, two VOR’s LOC a and GS. IT makes a neat instrument trainer, and fun to fly toy. I go into The Dallas area in it sometimes and hate to give up that capability when ADS-B comes into play.

So.... after that preface, when going into KGGG today in the 140, they gave me my sqwauk and I pressed ident. After a few minutes they said that I was stuck on ident. The light was on and I couldn’t get it off. It is a Narco and I don’t know the exact model number. I hate putting any money at all into the transponder since I want to put in an ADS-B unit if I can.

What is a bare bones transponder that would replace the Narco for the least amount of cash?

I have an AOPA magazine from a month or two ago with a list of transponders. I will be digging it out, but in the interim I am anxious to hear what you guys say about this.
 
I've been looking into this myself also. You don't mention any WAAS GPS source in the plane, so you will need a transponder with it built in. From what I can see, it's a toss up between the Garmin GTX335 and the Stratus ESG.
 
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flyingbrit said:
I've been looking into this myself also. You don't mention any WAAS GPS source in the plane, so you will need a transponder with it built in. From what I can see, it's a toss up between the Garmin GTX335 and the Stratus ESG.
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Agree. Both should be somewhat under 5 AMU installed with the GPS and are about the same both feature-wise and cost-wise. Same size and both are 1090 ES. For an Out only solution, you basically don't care about any other features. So...budget $5000 and pick your poison: Garmin or Appareo.
 
Agree that there’s no point in buying a Mode C only replacement at this point in time with where you’re flying.

As others have mentioned the real problem is not having the GPS source yet. ADS-B out will require it’s own source or an external.

If you’re looking to do only the transponder now, you may want to look into whether the GPS antenna that will have to be installed (nobody’s mentioned that part yet - labor costs) could be used with say, a GTX 345 with the add on internal GPS and then later the coax moved over to a Garmin GPS in the panel if you ever do that.

Not buying the antenna twice would be nice. But at least the coax would be run and the hold punched in the top of the aircraft somewhere already.

If you think you’re going to end up doing two separate GPS antennas by doing this in stages, offset the first one off of the vertical centerline by enough distance that you can do the second install symmetrical to the first. It’ll look better that way.
 
My Narco AT150 malfunctioned. I am cheap. I posted an ad on here. Someone had upgraded their panel and had a AT150 left over. I paid them $150 on the condition it worked. Swapped it out, Volla, problem fixed. I had numerous offers. I believe the AT50 and AT150 are interchangeable.
 
Not there yet but when my Narco goes TU I will go to an ADS-B solution. I figure the lowest cost ADS-B is about 2k and a replacement used transponder is another1k. I can get the Appareo for 3k and have new. The install will be a bit though.
 
Cruzinchris said:
My Narco AT150 malfunctioned. I am cheap. I posted an ad on here. Someone had upgraded their panel and had a AT150 left over. I paid them $150 on the condition it worked. Swapped it out, Volla, problem fixed. I had numerous offers. I believe the AT50 and AT150 are interchangeable.
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A tray swappable gets you a little time. Remember most good shops are already backed up six months. That’ll get worse as the deadline approaches. It gets you a year plus a few months is all before you have to put a deposit on a shop
slot and make a decision.
 
Cruzinchris said:
My Narco AT150 malfunctioned. I am cheap. I posted an ad on here. Someone had upgraded their panel and had a AT150 left over. I paid them $150 on the condition it worked. Swapped it out, Volla, problem fixed. I had numerous offers. I believe the AT50 and AT150 are interchangeable.
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That works if you don't want/need ADS-B in the future, otherwise it is just kicking the can down the road and good luck getting a shop to fit you in a year from now. Even now, it is pretty tough in my area.
 
I just had the Stratus ESG installed; not much experience on it yet, but first impressions are good. Some seemingly inconsequential features like a single button that says "VFR" are quite nice too. Mine was a bit over $5k, but included pulling an old GPS and installing some USB panel-mount power too; here's how mine broke out in detail if you're curious (in Arizona, your market may be different of course).

esg-bill.jpg
 
Thanks for the feedback. Please keep it coming.

It will be difficult to justify $5K for this plane. She’s a wonderful little aircraft, but not worth much more than $20K. What about replacing the intake and adding a Skybeacon? I have a working King KT76, I think the number is, that came out of the Mooney when they put in the GTX345. The transponder is at the bottom of the center stack and easy to access. If I can get the pin outs for both trays, I could put the King in myself and then do the Skybeacon next year.

Just thinking out loud.
 
Well, I now have a used Garmin GTX 320A that I have no use for; worked fine last time I turned it on, and I should have an 8130 with it. It won't get you past 2020, but it's a lot cheaper than ADSB too. :)
 
Ive seen a number of Lynx-9000's installed in legacy Cessna's. It's commonly the only EFIS type display in these panels; and very nice to have ADS-B in weather, traffic, etc without requiring an iPad in a confined area.

Selling a grounded plane after 2020 due to no ADS-B, will cause it to fall in value much more then the cost of ADS-B .
 
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I’d swap your Mode C transponder with another working unit. The Uavionix guys have the Skybeacon that replaces your wingtip lights or if you wait until December (so they say), you can go with their Tailbeacon replacement to get ADS-B out. That’s in the $1800 range and takes as much time as swapping a lightbulb. Seems like it might be the most cost effective because you are out for around $2000.
 
Well I was running an errand and stopped by the airport. The transponder is a Narco AT150 and the King transponder and tray on the shelf is a KT 76 A. When I had trouble with the transponder I was on approach and did nothing but push the button a little and couldn’t fix it. They said don’t worry about it until I get on the ground. I had forgotten about it until I got home. When at the airport just now I twisted the button and got the ident light to go off and brighten when I pressed it so I think I fixed it. I still have to solve the ADS-B issue in the next year and a half or so.

Great information in this thread so far. Please keep it coming. I will use the transponder again next week, so I will report whether or not it is now working properly.
 
I bought a used Garmin 327 and tray for less than $400 to replace a non-working Narco. The harness for it was another $200 and I installed it myself (I am A&P). EBay has a lot of 327s for auction of late as people upgrade to 330s or 330ES transponder or something else. I plan on waiting to last minute before adding ADSB Out capability but it should be easy to just add a SkyBeacon or a WAAS antenna and something like Garmin GDL 82 with GPS.
 
NordicDave said:
Ive seen a number of Lynx-9000's installed in legacy Cessna's. It's commonly the only EFIS type display in these panels; and very nice to have ADS-B in weather, traffic, etc without requiring an iPad in a confined area.

Selling a grounded plane after 2020 due to no ADS-B, will cause it to fall in value much more then the cost of ADS-B .
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Lack of ADS-B out after 2020 DOES NOT ground your plane, it DOES restrict the airspace you can legally fly in. Some folks will be affected greatly, some not at all.
 
TigerGene said:
Lack of ADS-B out after 2020 DOES NOT ground your plane, it DOES restrict the airspace you can legally fly in. Some folks will be affected greatly, some not at all.
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He has a point, in that it will affect the value of a plane, if it doesn’t have it. Maybe not a cub, but most planes.
 
Depends on your location and your flying. Most of my flying doesn’t involve the need for a calibrated transponder, even in the Mooney, but I do make it into C and under the DFW area, even in the Taildragger. I like be living in the boondocks.
 
Posting misinformation is not helpful to the discussion. Bad info makes ADS-B even more confusing than it already is. We should try to be as accurate as possible for the benefit of everyone trying to decide what to do.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Depends on your location and your flying. Most of my flying doesn’t involve the need for a calibrated transponder, even in the Mooney, but I do make it into C and under the DFW area, even in the Taildragger. I like be living in the boondocks.
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Right, so after 2020, you would be willing to pay the same price for a plane that had ADS-B vs one that didn't? Personally, if the plane didn't have it, I would have to budget for an immediate install (which of course, won't be possible with the backlog), as I have two class C airports within 10 minutes of my home drome. I think, if you want to sell your plane in the next few years, it will need ADS-B, or it will take a while to sell. There may be some buyers who don't care, but most will. Just like trying to sell a plane with an engine at TBO. Even if it has good compression and isn't making metal, most buyers will still price it as a run out, even though you consider it a strong engine.
 
TigerGene said:
Posting misinformation is not helpful to the discussion. Bad info makes ADS-B even more confusing than it already is. We should try to be as accurate as possible for the benefit of everyone trying to decide what to do.
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Which information was incorrect? Readers including myself need to know. Even if my own information is wrong I need to know.
 
MBDiagMan:

The part about a plane being grounded after 2020 for lack of ADS-B compliance. See post #13. This is not true, you can easily fly from coast to coast without ADS-B after 2020.

I’ve been studying this stuff for several years as I not only own a Grumman Tiger, I am responsible for a corporate aircraft as well.

One thing most people don’t know is that once you install the sysytem it must be on at all times and be in transmit mode, even on the ground. If it fails you are indeed grounded, (with a couple exceptions). Once installed it becomes a required piece of equipment even BEFORE 2020.
 
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MBDiagMan said:
. . . I still have to solve the ADS-B issue in the next year and a half or so.

Great information in this thread so far. Please keep it coming. I will use the transponder again next week, so I will report whether or not it is now working properly.
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Sounds like you are in a good position with the 140 being a second plane. Even if you have to avoid certain airspace after 2020, you still have another plane until you figure out the best option. We have a 172 and are trying to figure out the best option. My heartburn over the Skybeacon or the Garmin GLD add on - is spending $2-3K on more hardware without replacing anything. I would also like to see some history on the Skybeacon. I have enough trouble with wifi with laptops and iThings that gives me pause depending on that technology for ADSB. Also - Our transponder is 15 years old. I am leaning towards replacing the transponder with an all in one unit.
@deyoung - Thanks for posting the cost of your transponder install. Having real cost posted is big help to those of us that have not pulled the trigger.
I would also advise talking to a few avionics shops now to inquire about thier backlog. I talked to a shop not to far from here at an ADSB seminar. He said he can do the transponder swap in less than a day and his backlog was about 2 weeks. I read on this board about 6 + months backlog in other locations but we are not seeing that here (Ohio).
 
I had the same situation with my Canuck. Narco went TU, I had it repaired. It was always in the back of my mind when it would happen again. I went with the Stratus as it included the WAAS antenna in the price.
Very happy with new solid state transponder and ADS-B compliant.
 
NordicDave said:
I nearly laugh out loud listening to ADS-B denials. This is little Golf and non-ruled airspace left compared to years past, and it's shrinking every year.

Correct a plane is not technically grounded without ADS-B Jan 1 2020, but significantly restricted where it can go. The vast majority of pilots want to fly in, around, or near metropolitan areas, demonstrated by the heaviest concentrations of GA aircraft.

Have a look a the FAA's interactive Google Earth map which shows the airspace requiring ADS-B. https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/ The Google Earth map link is in the last section.

Unless your mission is limited to a few local G airports and back country fields, living without ADS-B will be challenging.
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OK, with that link, be very careful about what parts you click on. The default map is NOT the area you'll need ADS-B Out. The default map is where you should have ADS-B coverage at 500'.

Unfortunately, the map can't show you where you'll need ADS-B Out perfectly. To see what it can show, turn OFF the ADS-B coverage section. Then, turn ON the requirements block. But...then turn OFF Class A and Class E. That will show you where you need to have ADS-B Out under 10,000'. Yes, above 10,000' in Echo, you'll need ADS-B Out, which is nearly all of the US. But if you're flying low and slow, the vast majority of the land area of the US has some altitudes that do not need ADS-B Out.

EDIT: Hell, even here in SF Bay Area, if you're based at KRHV and you stay south, you're good to go, no ADS-B.
 
Armen, BTW.. we've met before at Tradewinds. You're a nice guy and great leaseback owner. I'd encourage anyone wanting to rent a 172 in the Bay Area to rent N194SP. You take great care of the ship and she flies beautifully the few hours I flew her.

Your points regarding ADS-B coverage are correct and also good to encourage pilots to review the FAA mandatory maps as you outlined. My view is it's nuts to to not have the situational awareness benefits of ADS-B for everyone and having to dodge urban areas as "no-fly" zones for GA pilots who don't have this capability.
 
The ADS-B choices are manifold and even baffling. I puzzled a long time what to choose. How to proceed may depend on how you fly, and what kind of display or GPS equipment you have in the aircraft. For recreational VFR, OUT only is probably enough and something like the sky beacon makes sense to me. If flying IFR or in high density areas having IN and OUT makes more sense, especially with panel display options for traffic and/or weather. And this all has to be balanced against the value of the aircraft and flight frequency.

I am currently installing a Lynx NGT9000, which will provide IN and OUT, ATAS, wifi connectivity to EFB software, and redundant WAAS and color display screen. Total cost installed about $6K. Was going to go Garmin GTX345 but that was same approximate cost and no GPS or screen redundancy. The Lynx units are flying out the door at one of our area shops, and the prices keep going down. The installer has done so many now he can do them in his sleep, which lowers labor costs. Looking forward to using it.
 
Just had the Stratus unit installed, about 5AMU's all in. I did hook it up to the Stratus antenna, I got ADSB in and out.
 
NordicDave said:
Armen, BTW.. we've met before at Tradewinds. You're a nice guy and great leaseback owner. I'd encourage anyone wanting to rent a 172 in the Bay Area to rent N194SP. You take great care of the ship and she flies beautifully the few hours I flew her.

Your points regarding ADS-B coverage are correct and also good to encourage pilots to review the FAA mandatory maps as you outlined. My view is it's nuts to to not have the situational awareness benefits of ADS-B for everyone and having to dodge urban areas as "no-fly" zones for GA pilots who don't have this capability.
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Hi Dave! I have to admit I didn't even look at the name before I posted my response. Thanks for the kind words!

I'm afraid my time at Trade Winds was short, only a year. Walt is a stand-up guy and runs a good business, but I was losing my shirt. The plane just wasn't flying enough. P&L was a negative 30 AMU that year. Popped over to WVFC and things are better, financially. The plane flies a lot more and the fuel and costs are lower. Yeah, there's extra politics with a giant non-profit, but I'm dealing.

N194SP is getting even shinier...I've got a thread over in Avionics about the new panel going in. Nothing too crazy, but it should be a much better IFR platform when that's done. And to that end...clearly I agree with you on ADS-B. The plane is getting the full ADS-B In and Out treatment, with a nice big display to show it all on.

Still, different strokes for different folks. The ADS-B stuff is obnoxiously expensive, especially if you're going to get full value out of it. I'd rather see folks fly than give up because it's too pricey.
 
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