- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,186
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
SOP at UAL is strobes on entering the runway and off exiting the runway and they most certainly do NOT use ALL the lights ALL the time.
Anti-collision lights during daytime.
- Thread starter Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
- Start date
SOP at UAL is strobes on entering the runway and off exiting the runway and they most certainly do NOT use ALL the lights ALL the time.
LearDriver
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2009
- Messages
- 882
- Location
- Its a really big state. Look Lower.
- Display Name
Display name:
Gdriver
Some Captains do it too. Any time they are on a runway or in the air. I want to be noticed at certain times and in certain types of operations.
Ghery
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2005
- Messages
- 10,944
- Location
- Olympia, Washington
- Display Name
Display name:
Ghery Pettit
Can't say I've spotted the lights before the plane, except when they have those dual alternating landing lights. And then they need to be headed towards me to have that visible.
Keep your eyes open and looking outside.
Keep your eyes open and looking outside.
Look, you can argue all you want, but the rule says what the rules say. Now United in their op specs or you as a private operator can make the determination that operating the strobes at night during taxi is contrary to safety, that's their/your prerogative.
Personally, during the day, the strobes and the nav lights come on with the master. At night, the nav and landing lights come on always, and depending on the airport, so do the strobes. If it's someplace where I think the strobes would be hazardous to other pilots, I keep them off. I also the landing lights on the taxiway when they're likely to be shining on other pilots when the airport has sufficient illumination of the taxiway.
Once you're on the runway, every light you got, not just anti collision but also your logo lights, and landing lights, etc... have been on. This isn't a regulation, but the NTSB has pretty much decided after a few line up and wait accidents that you want to do anything you can to get an aircraft to standout on an active runway.
Personally, during the day, the strobes and the nav lights come on with the master. At night, the nav and landing lights come on always, and depending on the airport, so do the strobes. If it's someplace where I think the strobes would be hazardous to other pilots, I keep them off. I also the landing lights on the taxiway when they're likely to be shining on other pilots when the airport has sufficient illumination of the taxiway.
Once you're on the runway, every light you got, not just anti collision but also your logo lights, and landing lights, etc... have been on. This isn't a regulation, but the NTSB has pretty much decided after a few line up and wait accidents that you want to do anything you can to get an aircraft to standout on an active runway.
Last edited:
Captain
Final Approach
Well now I'm confused. Before you said 'All lights ALL the time'. I asked if you included strobes with that and you didn't really answer it except to point out you were based in IAD and assured me they ALL do it.
Well, no they don't. Not one US carrier that ive ever seen (and ive seen a lot) taxis around with the strobes on. Beacon...yes. Strobes...no. A UAL pilot above confirmed that.
Now are you saying just on the runway and in flight? If so then we agree. Nobody suggested flying without strobes unless it's night in a cloud.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
My statement made no comment on whether or not they are to be run during the daytime. Only that they are not required equipment on the plane to fly daytime hours.
As you allude to, if for some reason they are inop, the plane may still be operated daytime (provided that the appropriate & required maintenance actions are taken - i.e. disabled and placarded).
silver-eagle
En-Route
I don't recall ever seeing another aircraft during daytime ops because of the lights it had on. I do, however, equate it to ground vehicles. If a vehicle is more visible further down the road with lights on, then it makes sense the same goes for aircraft.
All lights are on from runway to runway in the plane.
All lights are on from runway to runway in the plane.
azure
Final Approach
Where in there does it say that you need to have ALL installed anticollision lights on? Or is there another reference (maybe a letter from the General Counsel)?
BrianR
Pre-takeoff checklist
Yes. But only ones with the pulse lights activated. On the other hand, after a plane has been spotted in lower visibility conditions, the strobes certainly help to keep it in sight. The beacon? All that has ever done for me is let me know whether someone's engine is running or about to be.
I never said anything of the sort. I said that the REG requires ALL ANTICOLLISION lights to be lit while operating, unless the pilot determines that it is better not to in the interest in safety.
You're incapable of reading. I never said ALL airlines run with strobes. And your sample is no more VALID than the assertion you claim I made.
Just because your one friend at UA can vouch for UA's procedures doesn't change the regs or the facts.
I'm not arguing anything other than what the regs say. The regs say ALL THE ANTICOLLISION LIGHTS ON unless you have a safety reason not to. As pointed out, not blinding other pilots during taxi sounds good for me. Not having them on in the soup works too. Personally, I run them all at all times in the day and as stated above at night.
That is consistent with the regs and safety and what United or you think matters little to me.
comanchepilot
En-Route
I don't want anything on except the red strobe during engine start. . . why do you want to put that load on the battery.
Next - flashing white strobes are a big no-no at night on the ground - very distracting and completely unnecessary until you are wheels up or at least turning them on as part of the pre-take off checklist. Turn them on when cleared onto the runway along with the taxi/landing lights. Turn them off after landing - and if on I turn them off during an instrument approach in the clag to prevent disorientation. . .
Next- daytime - when flying in complex airspace [B/C] you should turn on everything you have - except Nav lights which would get lost in the strobes - you want someone to see you and you have no idea what it is that catches their eye - maybe the white strobes, maybe the red one maybe the airplane itself.
The FAR's requires strobes on at all times if you have them airborne.
Next - flashing white strobes are a big no-no at night on the ground - very distracting and completely unnecessary until you are wheels up or at least turning them on as part of the pre-take off checklist. Turn them on when cleared onto the runway along with the taxi/landing lights. Turn them off after landing - and if on I turn them off during an instrument approach in the clag to prevent disorientation. . .
Next- daytime - when flying in complex airspace [B/C] you should turn on everything you have - except Nav lights which would get lost in the strobes - you want someone to see you and you have no idea what it is that catches their eye - maybe the white strobes, maybe the red one maybe the airplane itself.
The FAR's requires strobes on at all times if you have them airborne.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Just a side-note, remember when Canada was first to require Daytime Running Lights on passenger vehicles?
Transport Canada has a study out that no significant change in number of accidents could be attributed to DRLs, about ten years later.
Can't find the Linky via Google today. My Google-Fu is weak.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 16,021
- Location
- DXO124009
- Display Name
Display name:
Light and Sporty Guy
If a white flashie is all you have, it's all you have....
Have you ever had the strobe or red rotating beacon catch your eye during daylight (before you actually saw the traffic)?
oldShar
Cleared for Takeoff
Just a side-note, remember when Canada was first to require Daytime Running Lights on passenger vehicles?
Transport Canada has a study out that no significant change in number of accidents could be attributed to DRLs, about ten years later.
Because they get lost "in-the-noise" that has become part of normal life.
People get used to them, so they see none of them.
Off hand, while in flight, it was the aircraft (or Center or ATC) that got my attention; never lights (except the pulsing landing lights, but only remember having seen them on birds on approach). ADS-B is likely the next attention getter
I was also taught to keep the transponder on STBY off the runway because the return would overwhelm/overmodulate the radar return and (potentially) wash the scope out (I guess like cell phones and iPads were threatened to do??)
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Quit poking the bear. Captain is trying to be nice.
EppyGA
Touchdown! Greaser!
Skylane81E
Final Approach
I like the lightheartedness of the post, but Figgured I'd post up that this is one of the certification requirements for FIKI
In fact, DRLs increases car vs. pedestrian accidents.
silver-eagle
En-Route
I am inclined to believe people are already oversaturated and even IF they look, they don't register there is a 2 ton chevy suburban coming at them at 40 miles per hour. They just blithly pull out/walk out into the road.
Nature loses out because cars now have MORE high tech gear to save stupid humans from themselves.
You do whatever you can do to be seen. I have pulse lights, anti collision, strobes, and position lights. I'm still not likely to be seen except at night. Same as in the 'Burb!
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
I leave the nav (position) lights off during the daytime (in the air or on the ground). Can't argue with your approach, just don't see the need (see my beacon comment below)
This is the light I leave on (shuts of with the master). Since I rarely have the plane sitting with master on and engines off for very long the effect (airplane getting ready to start or has engines running) is pretty much the same for me as you and your methods. And in any case the flashing beacon is a lot easier for anyone (e.g. me inside the FBO or some bystander on the ramp) to see than the nav lights.
If I'm at an uncontrolled airport (especially my home base with parallel runways and lots of ground lights when the tower is closed) I do turn or leave the strobes on when crossing runways to make the plane more visible from the air. Can't hurt, might help. As to turning strobes (and beacons) off in clouds, I rarely bother as they generally don't bother me much, but that's a personal preference issue.
And in between. I've been flying with alternate flashing landing lights on continuously (in the air) since I upgraded to HID and haven't been run into from ahead yet, so they must work pretty well, eh? Seriously there's even some evidence that this helps avoid bird strikes and that jibes with my experience (two bird strike events before I flew with flashing landing lights and none since). Coincidence? probably.
I have one but the aim is a little high unless you're trying to illuminate things above about 6ft AGL. Guess I'm not quite big time yet.
Ice at night? That's what I use mine for.
So if management tricked the maintenance guys into hot wiring the Logo Light switch, morale would improve, right?
Last edited:
denverpilot
Tied Down
I'm surprised modern airline management hasn't calculated the 0.0000001% more in fuel burn from leaving them on, and just had the switch safety wired off and labeled inop.
I think the issue is that many DRLs are dimmer and closer set than traditional headlights and hence they screw up the depth perception that makes pedestrians think the car is farther away that it is.
Captain
Final Approach
Nav vs. Beacon:
My plane sits for hours with power on. So a beacon doesn't make sense for me. I do see how if you don't have an APU or external power available then a beacon could serve the same purpose and even be more desirable. In fact, as I recall, that's exactly what I did when flying small pistons.
Stobes:
Lots of people turn 'em on to cross a runway. I even used to. But then I thought how little it was going to help and how much more I'd like to be looking left and right instead of down to find the switch. Big picture...it's a small thing and I really don't care if the FO turns them on or not.
Landing Light.
Mine has a 160 kt limitation so the call out is 'gear up, lights out'. If it didn't then I would operate as other planes ive flown...leave it on until climbing through 10,000 and leave it off until cleared to land. It's a pretty common use of the light as a visual aid in the cockpit to pilots to confirm they are cleared to land.
Wing Inspection Light:
That was just a joke. The purpose is right in the name so it's funny to not know what it's for...see? Funny, right?
Logo Light:
Believe it or not that one is somewhat true. Ive seen it first hand and even used it when we had a particularly bad union vote or CBA negotiation in progress. The percentage of tail art illuminated at night goes way down in such cases.
My plane sits for hours with power on. So a beacon doesn't make sense for me. I do see how if you don't have an APU or external power available then a beacon could serve the same purpose and even be more desirable. In fact, as I recall, that's exactly what I did when flying small pistons.
Stobes:
Lots of people turn 'em on to cross a runway. I even used to. But then I thought how little it was going to help and how much more I'd like to be looking left and right instead of down to find the switch. Big picture...it's a small thing and I really don't care if the FO turns them on or not.
Landing Light.
Mine has a 160 kt limitation so the call out is 'gear up, lights out'. If it didn't then I would operate as other planes ive flown...leave it on until climbing through 10,000 and leave it off until cleared to land. It's a pretty common use of the light as a visual aid in the cockpit to pilots to confirm they are cleared to land.
Wing Inspection Light:
That was just a joke. The purpose is right in the name so it's funny to not know what it's for...see? Funny, right?
Logo Light:
Believe it or not that one is somewhat true. Ive seen it first hand and even used it when we had a particularly bad union vote or CBA negotiation in progress. The percentage of tail art illuminated at night goes way down in such cases.
Captain
Final Approach
Actually the reg doesn't say that. It just says:
See the bold bit? I read that to mean if you have them equipped then one has to be on. If you have a beacon and strobes then one or the other is fine.
Every transport plane I've ever flown, jumpseated, or seen taxis with the beacon and takes off with the beacon and strobes on. I'm just telling you my experience on the matter.
azure
Final Approach
As I thought, it's a letter from the GC. It's not that it's already in the regs, except by the most bureaucratically strained reading imaginable. When will people realize that it is NOT in our interest to get official answers to these questions?
Righto. By that logic, my CNX-80 and my Trimble 2000A, both being approved IFR GPS units, are part of the same GPS navigation system. Since the Trimble database can no longer be updated, my GPS system is no longer IFR current and I can't shoot any approach with my CNX-80 that's been updated more recently than my last Trimble database update.
No, I DO NOT want an official answer to that question.
azure
Final Approach
Unfortunately the CLEAR LANGUAGE of that rule has been superseded by the infinite wisdom of the General Counsel. See the letter to Murphy. Sigh.
Captain
Final Approach
Just read the letter. It seemed to be clear that taxiing with a beacon on and strobes would be acceptable and even common. In the end it stated several time the refrence to PIC discretion.
I'm not real big on the details of FARs and much less so on letters from General Counsel. I've been a 121 / 135 guy for over a decade. I don't have a FAR /AIM. I get my marching orders from my Chief Pilots Office who get theirs from our Director of Ops who is responsible to the FAA through our POI.
I certainly don't see a problem with taxiing around with the strobes on, other than annoying the pilot next to you in the runup area. Hope this helps define my position.
azure
Final Approach
We don't seem to be reading the same letter.
Neither do I. But take it one step further... suppose you're equipped with beacon and strobes but one of your strobes is out, OR your strobes work but your beacon is out. If I had only a beacon, and my beacon was out, I'd be grounded until the beacon was fixed. But if my beacon works and my strobes are out, I'm STILL grounded (by the letter) because I don't have ALL of my anticollision lights on. In fact, it seems I can't even turn the engine on except under conditions where I can argue that it would have been a safety hazard to run the strobes anyway.
Last edited:
Captain
Final Approach
Meh, that doesn't apply to me. If my beacon or strobes are out I simply comply with the MEL. It's up to the OEM and DO and POI to figure out what's acceptable and tell me through the CPO. I just do what I'm told. Honestly...
denverpilot
Tied Down
As usual, the Chief Counsel who's apparently never been PIC in an aircraft, is changing the intent of rules that worked fine before they felt like they needed to justify their salary by making up crap. F---ing desk jockey.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
At one time someone (I think it was a Regional Counsel) generated an "official" answer to some question which stated that a VFR or IFR GPS with an expired DB made the airplane unairworthy. Fortunately someone higher up nixed that one pretty quickly.As I thought, it's a letter from the GC. It's not that it's already in the regs, except by the most bureaucratically strained reading imaginable. When will people realize that it is NOT in our interest to get official answers to these questions?
Righto. By that logic, my CNX-80 and my Trimble 2000A, both being approved IFR GPS units, are part of the same GPS navigation system. Since the Trimble database can no longer be updated, my GPS system is no longer IFR current and I can't shoot any approach with my CNX-80 that's been updated more recently than my last Trimble database update.
No, I DO NOT want an official answer to that question.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Last time I checked, the APU in my Baron was inop, in fact I don't even think I can find the switch for it any more.
Yeah, it's one of those personal opinion things. I'm more likely to just leave them on (i.e. when exiting one parallel runway and crossing another) than to turn them on for a crossing but even then I've generally found it possible to flip the switch on without taking my eyes inside for enough time to matter. OTOH, I'm not religious about the practice either.
JOOC are they retractable or something? If not what's the basis of the lights on airspeed limit?
Yeah I got it the first time that you were kidding. Apparently you missed that I was just playing straight man to your comedy.
I do believe you. OTOH, I'm guessing that the only folks who ever get to see the lighted logo well enough to ID the carrier are the ones in the tower and I'll bet they don't really get all inspired when they see one lit up.
Captain
Final Approach
I'd get that fixed ASAP!
: )
No, a P180 has a little door that drops down on the nose that houses the lights (taxi and landing). That door has a limit of 160 kts. I did see the results of busting that limitation. A pilot (not me this time) forgot the thing and flew the whole flight with them on. Got right up to the barber pole on the descent. When he landed the bulbs were gone and the wire leads were trailing out behind the door.
Who knows where those bulbs landed.
Yeah I got it the first time that you were kidding. Apparently you missed that I was just playing straight man to your comedy.
Sorry, I missed it. I'll do better going forward.
I do believe you. OTOH, I'm guessing that the only folks who ever get to see the lighted logo well enough to ID the carrier are the ones in the tower and I'll bet they don't really get all inspired when they see one lit up.
Agree. The only folks that care about those logo lights are airline execs and their egos.
John Collins
En-Route
Well, actually, IMHO they are quite different. A car or land vehicle is silhouetted by the relatively dark background of the road and earth. A bright light is a contrast with the background and it is the contrast that the eye sees. An airplane during the bright of the day is silhouetted against a very bright background and what the eye detects is the relatively dark contrast of the airplane against the background. Turning a non flashing landing light on, reduces the eye's ability to see the contrast and therefore makes spotting the aircraft less, not more easy. This effect was discovered in WWII and B24's that did submarine patrol used this as a cloaking device to make it more difficult for the submarine on the surface to spot the attacking aircraft. The leading edge had lights installed and was lit up to make the aircraft less visible and used as an early version of stealth. The project was called Yehudi, you might want to Google that to read more about the program.
The human eye uses the rods (black and white vision) to detect the contrast between the background and the object and is sensitive to a very small amount of contrast difference. This is why the pulse lights are so effective, because the eye detects the change in contrast as the lights pulse. A landing light on our aircraft is counter productive and to answer the OP question, no, during the day, I have always seen the airplane and studied it for some time afterwards before I could make out if the landing light was on or not. One other point, there are few rods in the center of your vision as this is where the cones predominate and is the reason that when you scan the sky for traffic you look slightly off center. It is your peripheral vision that detects the contrast and is so effective at detecting motion.
The concept of running the landing light continuously during the bright of the day is well meaning, but not scientifically based. Next time you are at an airport and watching the landing traffic, play this game, see when you first spot the airplane and then when you can determine the landing light is on.
A flashing light will enhance your ability to spot the aircraft, but the typical strobe light won't as it doesn't put out enough light to be detected against the background. No one has difficulty seeing the alternating pulse lights that some aircraft use. All that being said, the ineffective strobe is required by regulation to be on with some discretion available to the pilot.
Electric
Pre-Flight
I had an occurrence when the landing light helped me avoid the other aircraft in bright day light.
As I'm climbing out of class D airspace, and scanning the sky above me, all of a sudden see something at my high 10 o'clock. His landing light was not what caught my eye, but that's exactly what helped my brain "register" that it's an aircraft. (BTW, the other guy never saw me, I heard him talking to approach about conflicting traffic after I got of the collision course. It was exactly the time when I was trying to "squeeze" my transmission into the busy approach frequency, to get flight following.)
As I'm climbing out of class D airspace, and scanning the sky above me, all of a sudden see something at my high 10 o'clock. His landing light was not what caught my eye, but that's exactly what helped my brain "register" that it's an aircraft. (BTW, the other guy never saw me, I heard him talking to approach about conflicting traffic after I got of the collision course. It was exactly the time when I was trying to "squeeze" my transmission into the busy approach frequency, to get flight following.)
Last edited:
azure
Final Approach
Update: this little issue has become personal for me. My beacon is out.
Yes, my strobes still work. My mech, who was supposed to go up north this weekend, tried to tell me I was legal because I have strobes. He urged me to just fly it until he can get to it. I told him what I learned on this thread.
Knowing I have a checkride coming up, my mech promptly got serious. He actually obtained a new bulb Friday and tried it. Still didn't work.
One of the terminals on the old bulb was fried. So he reasoned that the P/S had either generated a surge and taken out the bulb, or the bulb somehow drew enough current from the P/S and fried both itself and the P/S.
So he got a new power supply from an Authorized Cessna dealer. Was told that the P/N in the parts manual had been superseded, so they gave him what they claimed was the new P/S. This morning he went to my hangar and found that the new P/S is incompatible.
Authorized Cessna dealer is closed on weekends.
If I'm reading Murphy correctly, I'm down until this mess is straightened out. It smells wrong to me that a Cessna shop would sell my mech the wrong part. I'm beginning to think I might have to ferry the plane to somewhere that knows what they're doing.
Seeing my dreams of doing the checkride this month evaporating and hoping I'm wrong about something here. Sigh.
Yes, my strobes still work. My mech, who was supposed to go up north this weekend, tried to tell me I was legal because I have strobes. He urged me to just fly it until he can get to it. I told him what I learned on this thread.
Knowing I have a checkride coming up, my mech promptly got serious. He actually obtained a new bulb Friday and tried it. Still didn't work.
One of the terminals on the old bulb was fried. So he reasoned that the P/S had either generated a surge and taken out the bulb, or the bulb somehow drew enough current from the P/S and fried both itself and the P/S.
So he got a new power supply from an Authorized Cessna dealer. Was told that the P/N in the parts manual had been superseded, so they gave him what they claimed was the new P/S. This morning he went to my hangar and found that the new P/S is incompatible.
Authorized Cessna dealer is closed on weekends.
If I'm reading Murphy correctly, I'm down until this mess is straightened out. It smells wrong to me that a Cessna shop would sell my mech the wrong part. I'm beginning to think I might have to ferry the plane to somewhere that knows what they're doing.
Seeing my dreams of doing the checkride this month evaporating and hoping I'm wrong about something here. Sigh.
denverpilot
Tied Down
It says you have to have them on. It doesn't say they have to work. Hahaha.
Sorry, all the nit-picking around here, I figured I'd be a smart azzzzz.
I turned every light on on the airplane tonight in the dark like a good little pilot. They all worked, too.
Didn't see or have a single traffic call between here and Cheyenne, WY and back, even plowing right through the inner circle (to the surface) over DIA (I was filed IFR).
You know you're out late when the flight service guy comes back to give you your clearance on the phone and says, "Your not a Lifeguard or have any special callsign, just a plain November?"
Hahaha. It's nice flying at night.
Sorry, all the nit-picking around here, I figured I'd be a smart azzzzz.
I turned every light on on the airplane tonight in the dark like a good little pilot. They all worked, too.
Didn't see or have a single traffic call between here and Cheyenne, WY and back, even plowing right through the inner circle (to the surface) over DIA (I was filed IFR).
You know you're out late when the flight service guy comes back to give you your clearance on the phone and says, "Your not a Lifeguard or have any special callsign, just a plain November?"
Hahaha. It's nice flying at night.
rainsux
Line Up and Wait
I'm at PTK ... And have a beacon that may do the job for you.Doug
Rainsux@hotmail.com
Rainsux@hotmail.com
azure
Final Approach
E-mail sent.