Another wide vs close pattern question

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Brad W

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I suppose primarily directed to those of you that like to fly close patterns.

The other thread about patterns has had me thinking.... and now I'm curious

What do you join an active pattern that's very wide?

when someone joins a pattern and starts flying too wide?

what options do you see when it gets out of hand?
 
I for one fly a wide pattern. The reason to fly a close one is if you lose the engine you want to make it back to the airport. That said, how often do you lose an engine in the pattern? It has happened, but it isn't what you would call a routine occurrence. What is a routine occurrence is stall/spin from base to final trying to cheer the turn and getting cross controlled. I fly a wide enough pattern that I don't need to cheat any of the turns, I have time to make them in a coordinated fashion.

My thoughts, worth what you paid to read them.
 
Brad W said:
I suppose primarily directed to those of you that like to fly close patterns.

The other thread about patterns has had me thinking.... and now I'm curious

What do you join an active pattern that's very wide?

when someone joins a pattern and starts flying too wide?

what options do you see when it gets out of hand?
Click to expand...

Different airplanes, different speeds and different conditions will dictate how a pilot choses to fly a traffic pattern. There is no need to get bent out of shape about this. If an airplane is flying a wide pattern, chances are it is a faster airplane, but regardless, you don't have to follow it like a conga line. Fly how you normally fly, but keep all the airplanes in sight and maintain situational awareness. If things get out of hand, exit the traffic pattern and come back later.
 
steingar said:
I for one fly a wide pattern. The reason to fly a close one is if you lose the engine you want to make it back to the airport. That said, how often do you lose an engine in the pattern? It has happened, but it isn't what you would call a routine occurrence. What is a routine occurrence is stall/spin from base to final trying to cheer the turn and getting cross controlled. I fly a wide enough pattern that I don't need to cheat any of the turns, I have time to make them in a coordinated fashion.

My thoughts, worth what you paid to read them.
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Do you still use 30° bank? You should. It helps others see you when you are wing up.

Perhaps you need a little dual to master those coordinated turns…. Let alone how not to stall on final.
 
Kritchlow said:
Do you still use 30° bank? You should. It helps others see you when you are wing up.

Perhaps you need a little dual to master those coordinated turns…. Let alone how not to stall on final.
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I do standard rate turns in the pattern. I am simply responding to the sorts of accidents I see. I also fly a faster, more complex aircraft, and might do things differently were I in a Skyhawk. You do you, I'll do me. No need for snark.
 
The only problem I see in the pattern at times is when one person doing a 747 pattern and another is low doing a tight cub pattern.
If all are talking it's usually not a problem but not desirable especially when the foreigners from a near by flight school are buzzing around.
 
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I fly the way it was taught, look out the wing on downwind and the runway is about halfway to 2/3 of the way up the strut (high wing) / wing (low wing)

I've never felt the need to cheat a turn.

For the folks petrified of leaving the safety of flying more than 1nm from the airport in case the engine fails... how do you fly cross countries or do anything other than patterns? Or are you based in an airport where you have the luxury of plotting cross country routes that never sets you more than a tight pattern's distance away from landing. Never know when that little engine might quit! (to that point, don't bother with a twin as it will oNlY FlY YoU tO tHe ScenE oF thE AcCidenT..

holy hell
 
sarangan said:
Different airplanes, different speeds and different conditions will dictate how a pilot choses to fly a traffic pattern. There is no need to get bent out of shape about this. If an airplane is flying a wide pattern, chances are it is a faster airplane, but regardless, you don't have to follow it like a conga line. Fly how you normally fly, but keep all the airplanes in sight and maintain situational awareness. If things get out of hand, exit the traffic pattern and come back later.
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Do twins typically fly a different pattern? Thinking about staying above your VMC speeds at all times, and realizing that in turns your stall speed is increasing, do they typically fly farther out and or higher? I'm reading a ton of stuff on this, but haven't come across this yet, and am trying to just get it all in my head before I start instruction.
 
MIFlyer said:
Do twins typically fly a different pattern? Thinking about staying above your VMC speeds at all times, and realizing that in turns your stall speed is increasing, do they typically fly farther out and or higher? I'm reading a ton of stuff on this, but haven't come across this yet, and am trying to just get it all in my head before I start instruction.
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VMC is pretty low in most pipsqueak multi trainers.. around 70-75 knots. What I was taught (and follow) is to stay above Vyse, which is around 85 in the same pipsqueak trainers. Realistically I'm doing 100-105 on the downwind, 90-95 on base, and around 85-90 on final until the runway is made.. cross the numbers at 75, touchdown 60-70. That's not much different from really anything higher performance than a PA-28 / C-172.

So I guess the TLDR is.. not really, at least not for an Aztec, Twinkie or Duchess. The folks in the real twins, 421, 404, 340, etc., may fly bigger patterns if they're faster in those downwind / base / final turns
 
If the person ahead of me is flying a wider pattern than I do, I fly my normal pattern width, but I fly slower than they are, so as to make sure I don't catch up to them when they turn base. Of course, that might not work if I were flying a plane with a high stall speed.
 
steingar said:
The reason to fly a close one is if you lose the engine
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somewhere out over no-mans-land, you have a good idea of what it takes to put it down on that baseball diamond because you have practiced it about 1000 times.

Or, like me, making a solid 50 knots in the pattern... what would you do if you were stuck behind me if I was on a 2 mile downwind? Unless I have to extend for someone else on base / final, I keep it tight. Real tight. You're welcome.
 
sarangan said:
Different airplanes, different speeds and different conditions will dictate how a pilot choses to fly a traffic pattern. There is no need to get bent out of shape about this. If an airplane is flying a wide pattern, chances are it is a faster airplane, but regardless, you don't have to follow it like a conga line. Fly how you normally fly, but keep all the airplanes in sight and maintain situational awareness. If things get out of hand, exit the traffic pattern and come back later.
Click to expand...

Yeap. I fly a wider pattern in my Mooney than a rental 172.
 
I fly close patterns and if someone is flying wide, I just slow down to make room for them.
 
I would have fun in Oshkosh in my 120… I’d get three landings INSIDE the tech school pattern.

Tower controlled, all good. If I think it’ll cause angst, just make room.. As usual, real answer is “it depends”.
 
Brad W said:
I suppose primarily directed to those of you that like to fly close patterns.

The other thread about patterns has had me thinking.... and now I'm curious

What do you join an active pattern that's very wide?
Click to expand...
I guess we can start with, define "wide" and "close," but that aside...

If there are multiple aircraft flying a wider pattern than I normally fly, I join it. See and avoid is easier when everyone is on the same page and looking in the same place. That's more important to me than my personal preference.

when someone joins a pattern and starts flying too wide?

what options do you see when it gets out of hand?
Click to expand...
Depends. I have at times keyed the mic and asked things like, "aircraft on downwind, are you going to fly all the way to..."

I think wide patterns do create an additional risk, but not the proverbial engine out after 2 hours of perfect operating. It's the FAA's instance on preferring the midfield crosswind entry many refer to as a "teardrop." Note the graphic from AC 90-66B. Picture the combination of a 135 turn to the 45 and a wide pattern.

upload_2022-10-12_15-32-46.png
 
sarangan said:
Different airplanes, different speeds and different conditions will dictate how a pilot choses to fly a traffic pattern. There is no need to get bent out of shape about this. If an airplane is flying a wide pattern, chances are it is a faster airplane, but regardless, you don't have to follow it like a conga line. Fly how you normally fly, but keep all the airplanes in sight and maintain situational awareness. If things get out of hand, exit the traffic pattern and come back later.
Click to expand...
nobody's out of shape..well I wasn't anyway
The rest of your answer is what I was asking about...what's going through different folks minds.... shold I follow in trail? should I establish my own runway parallel offset distance?, etc...

Tantalum said:
I fly the way it was taught, look out the wing on downwind and the runway is about halfway to 2/3 of the way up the strut (high wing) / wing (low wing)
I've never felt the need to cheat a turn.
For the folks petrified of leaving the safety of flying more than 1nm from the airport in case the engine fails... how do you fly cross countries or do anything other than patterns? Or are you based in an airport where you have the luxury of plotting cross country routes that never sets you more than a tight pattern's distance away from landing. Never know when that little engine might quit! (to that point, don't bother with a twin as it will oNlY FlY YoU tO tHe ScenE oF thE AcCidenT..
holy hell
Click to expand...
It's not about being petrified the way I see it, it's more about being selective about risk...being conservative. Don't take risk if it's not warranted.
and most pilots don't fly cross countries at pattern altitude. there's the difference. ALWAYS try to fly high enough so you have at least one potential spot in gliding distance.

Palmpilot said:
If the person ahead of me is flying a wider pattern than I do, I fly my normal pattern width, but I fly slower than they are, so as to make sure I don't catch up to them when they turn base. Of course, that might not work if I were flying a plane with a high stall speed.
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Me too. I've done it both ways...conga line and do what I think is right. If it's just say one or two, it makes sense the way you say, in my opinion. It just gets hairy if there are say six folks all on six different rectangles surrounding a small runway
 
Brad W said:
nobody's out of shape..well I wasn't anyway
The rest of your answer is what I was asking about...what's going through different folks minds.... shold I follow in trail? should I establish my own runway parallel offset distance?, etc...

It's not about being petrified the way I see it, it's more about being selective about risk...being conservative. Don't take risk if it's not warranted.
and most pilots don't fly cross countries at pattern altitude. there's the difference. ALWAYS try to fly high enough so you have at least one potential spot in gliding distance.


Me too. I've done it both ways...conga line and do what I think is right. If it's just say one or two, it makes sense the way you say, in my opinion. It just gets hairy if there are say six folks all on six different rectangles surrounding a small runway
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just fly a normal sized pattern unless there are other factors at play at the local field. I prefer to keep the tight and close because that just feels neater to me but sometimes you have to follow the dude ahead of you who's making big wide turns.. otherwise you risk messing up the whole flow
 
I just call a ten mile final and be done with it. I don't need no steenking patterns.
 
Palmpilot said:
If the person ahead of me is flying a wider pattern than I do, I fly my normal pattern width, but I fly slower than they are, so as to make sure I don't catch up to them when they turn base.
Click to expand...

somorris said:
I fly close patterns and if someone is flying wide, I just slow down to make room for them.
Click to expand...

I told my students that the ideal thing to do if an aircraft they were following was flying a really wide pattern would be to stop the plane while their traffic to follow flew their wide pattern and continue when appropriate. But since stopping was not an option, how about just slowing down as much as safely possible, keeping their pattern as tight as they normally would. Getting dragged really wide to follow someone could conceivably result in an off-airport landing if the engine quit, and, though rare, staying in close (and high) is the best way to avoid that.
 
Most places I go are not busy- close and tight as why lumber around - let’s get landed baby! But if it’s busy just do as the romans do.
 
"According to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) the most probable cause of mid-air collisions is the pilot failing to see and avoid other aircraft."

Man oh man! ... nothing gets by these folks ... :)
 
so then, can we officially consider 2 miles beyond downwind to be "outside the pattern"?
 
Brad W said:
so then, can we officially consider 2 miles beyond downwind to be "outside the pattern"?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that an official answer to that question exists.
 
MauleSkinner said:
There would have to be a context for “outside the pattern” for starters.
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I assumed the context to be Item 2 from the left side of the illustration in Post #30.
 
Just food for thought. If you are a flight school, looking to make a few extra dollars per student, flying wide means less patterns per hour... I've seen that done and don't care for it.
 
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