ANOTHER..... "Want to buy a plane thread"

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Keeper-Seeker

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Keeper-Seeker
But this one (thread) is mine. I have read through some of the other posts on the forum. However, it seems no 2 have the same want's and fit into the same criteria , so I do apologize to some of you ole timers with thousands of posts that have seen hundreds of these requests for starting another. And I thank those same ones whom are going to offer some input.

The Pilot: Still wet behind the ears so to speak. Just getting my ppl and working on my first 100 hours (85) so that I can get signed off on the flying clubs Cessna 182 and start logging some hours in Complex / High Performance aircraft. My training has been in a Cherokee PA-28-140.

Desire: My top priority is Useful Load. My second is speed, but without getting in over my head. I am thinking I can safely handle and grow into 150-180 Knots cruising speed. I mean, one can always throttle back, can't we? I am obviously looking at single engine, but wanted to clarify that. I've spoken to an Insurance Broker regarding retractable gear as opposed to fixed and as a new pilot the difference is quite a bit. Based on the ball park range I gave him of $150 K I am looking at around $1,200 annual fixed and $4,000 annual retractable. He did advise that the retractable would come down pretty significantly in following years as I gain experience and have no gear up landings.

Usage: I travel the East Coast for work. Before I had the thought process of "flying" I bought myself an F-250 King Ranch and have logged 60,000 miles in a year. I say that only to advise that I get around a bit and the plane will be utilized regularly. I am 6' and 240Lbs.... I frequently have an employee in tow whom is 6'3" and 250.... But lets not buy around him as he may last, he may not. I've learned after 25 years of self employment that I am the only constant and truly reliable employee I have. I digress; I can at any given time be carrying 150-200 lbs of tools and gear.
I've got a Ball and Chain, I mean Wife, and two full grown children. I would love to tell you we are going to go on adventures together and see the Country but the main use will be for work.
There will be the occasional grab a buddy and golf gear and go play 18 somewhere we normally wouldn't, but that's not main use either.

The Rest: I will try to shorten the story and just give some bullets:
  • I much prefer the looks of a low wing over a high wing.
  • I really like the Cherokee 6/300 for Useful load, space, design as they have the front stowage to assist with CG but I desire more speed. I can buy some speed with a Saratoga which comes at the price of 18GPH fuel burn. Both of which are fixed gear.
  • I am not committed to Fixed Gear because of Insurance as I really need to weigh all the variables. Added expense for annuals and insurance could be washed out with a 10-12 GPH fuel burn if I am flying 200-300 hours a year
  • Do I really need a 6 seater? NO, I do not. I need good useful load.
  • I want to just buy and fly, not looking to have to upgrade avionics.
  • Must be IFR as I am not going to be a "fair weather pilot"
  • All the above, plus lower hours till TBO for around $150K
That is the gist of it.... I will patiently wait for some feed-back and thank those that do in advance.

P.S. " Keeper-Seeker " was the name I put on a Fishing Boat many years ago, I thought it fit here too. as I am looking for a keeper plane.

Make it a Great Night

Jon
 
Keeper-Seeker said:
Usage: I travel the East Coast for work. Before I had the thought process of "flying" I bought myself an F-250 King Ranch and have logged 60,000 miles in a year. I say that only to advise that I get around a bit and the plane will be utilized regularly.
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Your situation sounds similar to what mine will be in the future for using an airplane as a business tool. I'll probably end up with a T210 or maybe a TR182 eventually just for the fact they're somewhat fast planes, they're affordable, have decent range, can carry a decent load, can fly high if the occasion arises, are good for the hot DA we have here in AZ, and I don't have to crawl on a wing.

It sounds like you don't mind crawling on wings, so listen to some of the advice here and take it for what it's worth. Some will be good, some will be bad. You're probably a savvy biz owner, so you should be able to sort it all out.;)

Oh and BTW... don't mention conducting any business using your airplane, or carrying tools, or employees that are incidental to your business. The PG here will have a hissy fit, and will tell ya you're flying illegally and need to have a commercial license and all that happy BS. Ignore them! :rolleyes:
 
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Nah listen to em so you can understand what you can and can't do legally.... it's kinda important stuff. You most certainly can fly yourself for business...


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And don't listen to people who aren't even student pilots who are giving advice about which complex plane to buy...
I bet 210 insurance is a dealbreaker for a new pilot. It is very expensive to insure even for experienced pilots.

Saratoga fills OP's mission (and it won't eat 18gph, more like 12-15 depending how hard you run it), it has no gear issues like all retract Cessnas do, the airframe is rock solid, and there are plenty of nice examples around.
 
The way I interpret the OP (unless I have misunderstood his immediate intentions), THIS is the reason we need airplanes with parachutes.

To the OP: If your intention is to buy an airplane as a low time pilot, start with something simple and slower.
Decades ago the Beech Bonanza became known as the "Doctor Killer". Low time, high income pilots buying airplanes that are slick and fast. Put the nose down in a Bo in cruise configuration and it'll be through Vne about the time the words "Oh shzt" finish coming out of your mouth. Buy yourself a load hauler with fixed gear (Dakota, Cherokee Six, etc.) and go get a bunch of experience in all kinds of weather and winds, density altitudes and runway types. Then trade up to the hot rod you covet. Your family and business associates will be safer for it.

But if you really have to buy a fast IFR capable machine now...buy a Cirrus. At least that way if you get in over your head and experience level you've got a face card to play as a last resort.
 
That's kinda why I was thinking Saratoga, very stable, forgiving. Fixed gear even better. Still faster than driving.


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It's too late for me to read all of that, so I might try it again in the AM. For now, I'm liking the idea of a Bonanza.

Nite!
 
GRG55: I don't think you totally misunderstood, but also didn't understand 100%. I am NOT looking to put myself nor my family or friends in the face of danger. I'm not looking to fly through convective sigmets. However, time is $$. I can be working in NJ one day and have a job pop up in New Orleans the next. I want to be able to fly IFR and not be stuck anywhere for days waiting for VFR conditions.

As for your cirrus comment..... I will say that I would never buy one and might not take one for free.... I would rather glide to a field or interstate as opposed to flailing out of the sky under a round chute in a plane that has a parachute because they are not able to recover from a spin under FAA guidelines. Nor do I want the $10K re packing fee every 10 years.

But thanks for your feedback.
 
Keeper you're missing the point. Faster, hotter airplanes have dangers. With a Bo in IMC it's spiral divergence. This video was inspired by Bo accidents back in the day. Plain old IMC with no turbulence or rain or hail or lightning or ice can do you in too....



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Icing will be a concern too. Just because it's a very IFR still can mean lengthy delays. Don't buy a plane if you'll contract get-there-itis
 
Oops here is the FAA version



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gsengle said:
Oops here is the FAA version



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My instructor had me watch that very early on in my training. Every time I do I think of J.F.K. Jr's last moments. I have no desire or intentions of being "that guy". Got myself a great Gold Seal Instructor and nothing can replace training and practice. "Time takes Time".
 
Cool. The lesson is: hot airplanes can get away from you faster... knew someone who died in a Bo last year because of prob a vacuum system failure. Delight to fly but will spiral pretty quick. A Saratoga is a bit more of a truck but won't spiral as fast or accelerate as fast. I fly a Mooney, also very stable but will accelerate fast. The point being I used to think you could buy a faster airplane and just fly it slow, but it's not that simple....

The other lesson is have more than one AI.... and of course your instrument rating.


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I fly for business, but it really took some time and frankly some pretty fancy equipment before I was able to get usable dispatch rates. I don't think your first plane necessarily has to be the plane of your dreams or the one you use for business use. Something forgiving and rock steady like any of the 4 seat Cessna, Piper, Diamond, etc aircraft, either buying or renting to build time is where I would start. Flying IFR with the pressure of business with or without carrying employees is a real big bit to chew off, and really would not look to be doing that without the PPL, IFR, maybe even a commercial and pushing towards 750-1000 hours as a minimum. In the mean time, you can fly for work when the weather out and back is not too challenging, get some cross country experience when there is not time or mission pressure and enjoy the ride. If you want to really charge into IFR, time is critical flying, you probably need more than 150K worth of aircraft, and you need to put a pro-pilot in the right seat as you build experience. IMHO. Good luck and safe travels on your exciting journey.
 
Another vote for the PA32 lance/toga.
 
Keeper-Seeker said:
I am thinking I can safely handle and grow into 150-180 Knots cruising speed. I mean, one can always throttle back, can't we?
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No, we can't. Top speed is rather irrelevant to the "Can I stay ahead of the airplane?" question. At cruise, it's not a much different workload between 140 and 200 knots (ok, in hard IMC that's probably not true, but I think my point will stand) the answer is no, because, with that higher cruise speed, almost always comes higher stall speeds and more workload to configure for and fly a stable approach, which is where a plane usually gets ahead of pilots. You can't just "throttle back" when the plane is ahead of you on a difficult approach.
 
Another real world issue that I've learned in my flying is, that as much as we love it, flying is work. It's effort. An IFR/IMC flight is effort. You have to be realistic when mixing your day job with flying and count the flying hours as work, because it's really hard and not safe to try and fly home 3 hours in IMC after 8 hours of client meetings... it works great for some people, and their jobs or business mesh well with GA, but between the "have to be there" factor and the day job factor it can be tough.


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You'll get a lot of great advise on the board with different eyes. If it's really going to be a keeper... the Toga would be perfect. But, like boats, every A/C model has it's own attributes and warts. Just know them both, and plan to fly conservatively for the first year or two. WX is always going to be a factor, low altitude, no FIKI equipment in the type of A/C your looking at for hauling lots of stuff. Light GA can only handle so much. Like others have said, icing will be the biggest factor in dispatch rate. Convective stuff, not so b/c who'd launch on a flight plan crossing a convective funnel boundary anyway... Seriously, think about a step up plane to see how much utility you are really going to need. You'll wind up like most, trading off speed for payload in the end.
 
gsengle said:
Cool. The lesson is: hot airplanes can get away from you faster... knew someone who died in a Bo last year because of prob a vacuum system failure. Delight to fly but will spiral pretty quick. A Saratoga is a bit more of a truck but won't spiral as fast or accelerate as fast. I fly a Mooney, also very stable but will accelerate fast. The point being I used to think you could buy a faster airplane and just fly it slow, but it's not that simple....

The other lesson is have more than one AI.... and of course your instrument rating.


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A great one for a sim lesson, did my initial IFR using sims heavily with a very high time II, one thing he had me do was to chase the AI as he failed it, put you into a perfect spiral dive as it spools down.
 
Good point, the way a gyro ai fails is no flag, just a slow fall off to one side or the other...


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You're a VFR PPSEL, right? And you want useful load, range, and speed?

A36 Bonanza.

Keep yourself VFR until you have a couple hundred hours in the airplane and your IFR ticket.
 
gsengle said:
Cool. The lesson is: hot airplanes can get away from you faster... knew someone who died in a Bo last year because of prob a vacuum system failure. Delight to fly but will spiral pretty quick. A Saratoga is a bit more of a truck but won't spiral as fast or accelerate as fast. I fly a Mooney, also very stable but will accelerate fast. The point being I used to think you could buy a faster airplane and just fly it slow, but it's not that simple....

The other lesson is have more than one AI.... and of course your instrument rating.


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The thing about a Bo (or Baron for that matter) is that they are designed with an almost neutral stability. You can trim the airplane up just perfectly and then roll into a standard rate turn just by shifting your body weight in the cabin.
 
Ryanb said:
It's too late for me to read all of that, so I might try it again in the AM. For now, I'm liking the idea of a Bonanza.

Nite!
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Alright, I slept on it and my final suggestion would be a Lancair IV, although I'm not sure I can recommend it with a clear conscience.

Others have given great suggestions for you. The PA-32 and Bo are great airplanes for your mission.
 
Bobanna said:
Sure. In any airplane. Isn't his the reason an accomplished instrument pilot has a disciplined scan and instrument cross-check? Happy Easter!
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EXACERBATED by the lack of stability of a given airplane. I wouldn't wanna be in an extra 300 in IMC as much fun as they are in VMC. You pick the tool for the mission....


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kyleb said:
You're a VFR PPSEL, right? And you want useful load, range, and speed?

A36 Bonanza.

Keep yourself VFR until you have a couple hundred hours in the airplane and your IFR ticket.
Click to expand...

If you're going to get a Bo might as well get a real one and find V tail with tip tanks and a huge engine.
 
kyleb said:
You're a VFR PPSEL, right? And you want useful load, range, and speed?

A36 Bonanza.

Keep yourself VFR until you have a couple hundred hours in the airplane and your IFR ticket.
Click to expand...


Damn, I hope nobody thought I would even consider flying IFR Without my IFR Certification. Wanting to train IFR in my own aircraft and save that $110.00 an hour plane rental fee and just pay instruction fees.
 
Keeper-Seeker said:
Damn, I hope nobody thought I would even consider flying IFR Without my IFR Certification. Wanting to train IFR in my own aircraft and save that $110.00 an hour plane rental fee and just pay instruction fees.
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My intended point was that you'd want to have 200+ hours in the airplane and have the IFR ticket. That way, you'd be in command of the airplane and have picked up on some of the mechanical and audible feedback an airplane will give you before you were tempted to (legally) fly through a cloud.
 
Keeper, the subtext here that you're getting from everybody is concern. Low time pilot (below 500) in a situation where he *has* to go somewhere for work in a new to him (less than 200 hrs) fast plane - those are all factors that we've read repeatedly in NTSB reports over the years.

I'm 430 hours, IFR rated with a year-old CFI ticket, flying a 172 that I own and have 300 hours in. I pushed my limits a few months ago and was pretty happy to turn around and put her on the ground.

The lesson? We low-time pilots don't know what we don't know, and it'll be a few hundred more hours until we have a better handle on the learning curve.

Good luck in your search, and keep that Gold Seal CFI close by. Also, the Pilot Workshops Real World IFR series is worth every penny.
 
How about a Dakota? Has the Piper low wing your looking forward, decent cruise speed, one of the best single engine useful loads, and can get one well equipped with glass and low time and still come in 20k below your budget.


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Bobanna said:
Sure. In any airplane. Isn't his the reason an accomplished instrument pilot has a disciplined scan and instrument cross-check? Happy Easter!
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If its your plane and you fly it regularly then flying instruments in an airplane with touchy, light controls is no big deal. I can fly an ILS to minimums in the Swift just as easily as I could in a 172 etc...
 
whereisrandall said:
Keeper, the subtext here that you're getting from everybody is concern. Low time pilot (below 500) in a situation where he *has* to go somewhere for work in a new to him (less than 200 hrs) fast plane - those are all factors that we've read repeatedly in NTSB reports over the years.

I'm 430 hours, IFR rated with a year-old CFI ticket, flying a 172 that I own and have 300 hours in. I pushed my limits a few months ago and was pretty happy to turn around and put her on the ground.

The lesson? We low-time pilots don't know what we don't know, and it'll be a few hundred more hours until we have a better handle on the learning curve.

Good luck in your search, and keep that Gold Seal CFI close by. Also, the Pilot Workshops Real World IFR series is worth every penny.
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Appreciate the feed-back and the "concerns" expressed by all. I know without a doubt from past experiences ( one of my cross country flights was last fall in very smokey conditions from forest fires ) that I would rather be sitting on the ground wishing to be flying than sitting in the left seat wishing to be on the ground.
 
Keeper,

As long as you respect the airplane and your skills set, a PA-32 'Toga/Lance retract will suit you well. Fly, learn, learn, fly. At some point a logical upgrade, if needed, would be to move to a FIKI Seneca or Baron.
 
gsengle said:
Another real world issue that I've learned in my flying is, that as much as we love it, flying is work. It's effort. An IFR/IMC flight is effort. You have to be realistic when mixing your day job with flying and count the flying hours as work, because it's really hard and not safe to try and fly home 3 hours in IMC after 8 hours of client meetings... it works great for some people, and their jobs or business mesh well with GA, but between the "have to be there" factor and the day job factor it can be tough.


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gsengle: I have read your post to this thread, and I agree 100% on all the things you are pointing out to the OP. I agree with you in that a Cherokee 6, Saratoga, or even a C182 would provide the OP with the ability to do what he needs probably 85% of the time, while deciding if flying his own GA plane is practical for the business he is trying to contract for and conduct. It is really difficult to work even 4-6 hrs and then face a 3-5 hr IFR flight afterward/
 
Keeper-Seeker said:
I would rather glide to a field or interstate as opposed to flailing out of the sky under a round chute in a plane that has a parachute because they are not able to recover from a spin under FAA guidelines. Nor do I want the $10K re packing fee every 10 years.

But thanks for your feedback.
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Early G1 Sr22 has around 1250 useful, 170kts cruise, fits your budget. Start flying over mountains... night time flying... low IMC all scenarios where you are really hosed if the engine fails and the Chute sounds better and better.

Get a Toga, Lance or Cessna 210 if you need more useful load than that. I think you said that you didn't like the looks of high wing. But they sure are nice if you are loading up in the rain, easier to get in/out (no climbing on wing) and cooler in the summer (wing provides shade)

Unrealated, anyone know how well golf clubs fit in a Cirrus? Just curious.
 
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dell30rb said:
Early G1 Sr22 has around 1250 useful, 170kts cruise, fits your budget. Start flying over mountains... night time flying... low IMC all scenarios where you are really hosed if the engine fails and the Chute sounds better and better.

Get a Toga, Lance or Cessna 210 if you need more useful load than that. I think you said that you didn't like the looks of high wing. But they sure are nice if you are loading up in the rain, easier to get in/out (no climbing on wing) and cooler in the summer (wing provides shade)

Unrealated, anyone know how well golf clubs fit in a Cirrus? Just curious.
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I hear you in regards to the Cirrus in a worst case scenerio, ie: Mountains. However, I would hate to come floating down into power lines or a lake under the round canopy. and the $10 K re pack fee also puts me off. Just my .02 cents. I am not buying a Cirrus.
 
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