Another commercial x country question: night

[Lindberg]

I don't think I've seen this question answered here before.

One of 61.129's training requirements is "[o]ne 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure."

If I take off with an instructor an hour before sunset on a 400-mile, 4-hour flight, such that >2 hours and >100 miles of the flight, plus the landing, are in nighttime conditions, have I satisfied 61.129(a)(3)(iv)? I have an opinion, but I'd like to hear others' before I give mine.

This is a purely academic question for me. I already have my commercial cert, so please don't tell me to just go fly another x country.

 

[RussR]

A cross country flight isn't a XC flight without the takeoff. Since your takeoff was during the day, it was not a "night" XC flight. Now, if you did a touch and go halfway there, then it would count.

That's my opinion. I believe it is backed up by other sources, but I'm unable to find those sources right now. Because I'm in an airliner and we're pulling into the gate!

 

[midwestpa24]

Quite often the 2 hour night commercial cross country is paired with the 2 hour day commercial cross country. That's how I did it, we took off late afternoon and flew to a point 2 hours and 100+ miles away, had dinner while the sun set, then made the return trip after dark.

 

[RyanB]

Quite often the 2 hour night commercial cross country is paired with the 2 hour day commercial cross country. That's how I did it, we took off late afternoon and flew to a point 2 hours and 100+ miles away, had dinner while the sun set, then made the return trip after dark.

Ditto.

 

[RussR]

Ditto.

Agreed, that's my preference as well.

 

[Lindberg]

Quite often the 2 hour night commercial cross country is paired with the 2 hour day commercial cross country. That's how I did it, we took off late afternoon and flew to a point 2 hours and 100+ miles away, had dinner while the sun set, then made the return trip after dark.

Indeed. And I don't think there's any question that suffices. Do you have an opinion on this scenario?

 

[midwestpa24]

Indeed. And I don't think there's any question that suffices. Do you have an opinion on this scenario?

I would say you have created a fringe case scenario that would require a legal interpretation from FAA counsel to settle. Your interpretation or mine is irrelevant.

 

[TCABM]

Indeed. And I don't think there's any question that suffices. Do you have an opinion on this scenario?

If you don’t have a night takeoff to match the night landing, you can’t have a night cross country.

ETA. Since this is for a rating, see 61.51 (3). It’s an either/or, not both entry in the logbook.

 

[Lindberg]

If you don’t have a night takeoff to match the night landing, you can’t have a night cross country.

ETA. Since this is for a rating, see 61.51 (3). It’s an either/or, not both entry in the logbook.

Are you saying that you can't log day & night time on the same flight?

 

[DesertNomad]

In just about every case I know of, this requirement is done with a day XC, dinner, and then a night XC return to the origin.

 

[RyanB]

Are you saying that you can't log day & night time on the same flight?

No that’s not what he’s saying, but there’s some ambiguity here and regulatory gray area that I can see. What prohibits someone from departing on a 3hr cross country right at sunset and then begin logging night time one hour later for two hours of night flight to meet the requirement. Would that not count?

 

[Jim Carpenter]

The original question is a good one, I don't know the answer. But I've run into the exact scenario with commercial students before, and just to be sure to eliminate any ambiguity, we landed and took off somewhere enroute, so the logbook shows a full nighttime flight.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

If this is an academic question then extend it further.
During Summer months with short nights and an aircraft that had sufficiently long in flight duration capability. Academic question anyhow.
Take off an hour before sunset. Fly for 10 hours. Land an hour after sunrise and > 100 nm from the original point of departure.
You clearly have XC time. You also have night flight time. Probably PIC time. You could have even gotten simulated or actual instrument time in there as well.
--
Pretty sure that would clearly NOT be in the spirit of the regs would NOT count for the commercial requirement. I can almost see the FAA legal interpretation in my head explaining how "in nighttime conditions" refers to the entirety of the phrase that comes before it of "cross country flight" and how previous legal interpretations detail what a cross country flight is.

 

[Pinecone]

For fun, take it further. Go far enough north in the summer time. My plane carries about 9 hours of fuel if power pulled back. You take off day, fly 3 hours, then it is night for 2 hours, then day for 3 hours. Land.

 

[TCABM]

Are you saying that you can't log day & night time on the same flight?

No, 14 CFR states

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
…
b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
…
(3) Conditions of flight -

(i) Day or night.

Seems clear and binary to me.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don't think I've seen this question answered here before.

One of 61.129's training requirements is "[o]ne 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure."

If I take off with an instructor an hour before sunset on a 400-mile, 4-hour flight, such that >2 hours and >100 miles of the flight, plus the landing, are in nighttime conditions, have I satisfied 61.129(a)(3)(iv)? I have an opinion, but I'd like to hear others' before I give mine.

This is a purely academic question for me. I already have my commercial cert, so please don't tell me to just go fly another x country.

Part is easy. What is considered a single cross country flight with multiple legs vs multiple cross country flights is mostly in the eye of the beholder. But the one thing that's is clear is that a cross country flight counted toward certificate and rating requirements consists of the same person taking off, flying enroute, and landing:

"only the pilot conducting the entire flight, including takeoff, landing, and en route flight, as a required flight crewmember may log cross-country time."​

Beyond that, if you want to argue that a "2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions" only requires part of the flight to be done at night, be my guest.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No, 14 CFR states

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
…
b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
…
(3) Conditions of flight -

(i) Day or night.

Seems clear and binary to me.

Of course you can log day for the day portion and night for the night portion of a flight. These are time entries, not yes/no entries. Whether it can count as a single flight meeting nigh requirements is a separate issue.

Let's use the single entry for my first solo IFR flight:

1.3 total, 1.0 actual, 0.8 night (0.5 day), 1.3 cross country​

You seem to think that's wrong. So, how would you log it?

 

[Lindberg]

Part is easy. What is considered a single cross country flight with multiple legs vs multiple cross country flights is mostly in the eye of the beholder. But the one thing that's is clear is that a cross country flight counted toward certificate and rating requirements consists of the same person taking off, flying enroute, and landing:

"only the pilot conducting the entire flight, including takeoff, landing, and en route flight, as a required flight crewmember may log cross-country time."​

Beyond that, if you want to argue that a "2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions" only requires part of the flight to be done at night, be my guest.

I think this is the most correct answer, but you're analogizing from an opinion about the person conducting the flight to the conditions of the flight. And it's an imperfect analogy, as you acknowledge, because there's no doubt in this hypothetical that the student can log this as a cross country, but it's possible the FAA could interpret the requirement as two hours of the cross country taking place during nighttime.

As I said, this is an academic question for me, but it does actually come up, and at least informal polling yields inconsistent personal opinions from FAA employees. Someone should ask the chief counsel.

 

[DesertNomad]

As a CFI, I am not going to endorse you for a checkride unless your night XC contains a night takeoff and night landing with no daytime in between.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think this is the most correct answer, but you're analogizing from an opinion about the person conducting the flight to the conditions of the flight. And it's an imperfect analogy, as you acknowledge, because there's no doubt in this hypothetical that the student can log this as a cross country, but it's possible the FAA could interpret the requirement as two hours of the cross country taking place during nighttime.

As I said, this is an academic question for me, but it does actually come up, and at least informal polling yields inconsistent personal opinions from FAA employees. Someone should ask the chief counsel.

I certainly don't have an inner line, but I just don't see anything other than a 2-hour cross country flight - takeoff to landing - that takes place at night in that language. I don't see, for example, a 3 hour single leg cross country flight in which the last 2 hours take place at night. Or for that matter, a single leg 4-hour cross country flight in which the first half is daytime and the last half night time. Sure, the language might be susceptible to that reading, but I don't think it's a reasonable construction in context.

If asked, my crystal ball says the Chief Counsel would punt the question to Flight Standards as one not requiring a legal interpretation.

 

[TCABM]

Of course you can log day for the day portion and night for the night portion of a flight. These are time entries, not yes/no entries. Whether it can count as a single flight meeting night requirements is a separate issue.

Let's use the single entry for my first solo IFR flight:

1.3 total, 1.0 actual, 0.8 night (0.5 day), 1.3 cross country​

You seem to think that's wrong. So, how would you log it?

I would log that flight the same. I would not log it as a night cross country Part 61 event though because I don't believe it qualifies for 61.129 aero experience requirement in pursuit of a commercial pilot certificate rating. Specifically, 61.129 is written is not how the OP posed his question.

§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience...
(a)(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least -
(iv)One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and...

There's no special analysis needed to interpret the aero experience requirement. The cross country flight is in pursuit of an aeronautical rating, it must include training on the areas of operations listed in 61.127, which includes
14 CFR 61.127(b)(1)(iv)Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;
it must be two hours or greater duration, it must cover at least 100nm from the point of departure, and it must be in nighttime conditions which, for use towards an aero rating, must meet the 14 CFR 1.1 definition of night...end of evening civil twilight. I believe that to mean the entire 14 CFR 61.129(a)(3)(iv) operation is conducted during nighttime conditions. The 61.51 day or night just cements the regulatory intent for me.

post: 3371969, member: 15981"]As a CFI, I am not going to endorse you for a checkride unless your night XC contains a night takeoff and night landing with no daytime in between.

While I'm not a CFI, that's where my journey is headed, and that's how I looked at the OPs question. If I was a CFI, would I endorse a candidate with the posed aero experience for the certificate being sought.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would log that flight the same. I would not log it as a night cross country Part 61 event though because I don't believe it qualifies for 61.129 aero experience requirement in pursuit of a commercial pilot certificate rating. Specifically, 61.129 is written is not how the OP posed his question.

Definitely agree it would not count for the 61.129 requirement. When you said 61.51 required one or the other - it doesn't - it sounded that you were going beyond 61.129's special cross country and into general logging of flight time.

 

[Lindberg]

I certainly don't have an inner line, but I just don't see anything other than a 2-hour cross country flight - takeoff to landing - that takes place at night in that language. I don't see, for example, a 3 hour single leg cross country flight in which the last 2 hours take place at night. Or for that matter, a single leg 4-hour cross country flight in which the first half is daytime and the last half night time. Sure, the language might be susceptible to that reading, but I don't think it's a reasonable construction in context.

You don't see anything in the reg language requiring a night takeoff on that flight, either. You're importing that requirement from the Gebhart letter, which isn't unreasonable to do, but the context is different.

If asked, my crystal ball says the Chief Counsel would punt the question to Flight Standards as one not requiring a legal interpretation.

Would you be surprised if FSDO told you it counted?

 

[midlifeflyer]

You don't see anything in the reg language requiring a night takeoff on that flight, either. You're importing that requirement from the Gebhart letter, which isn't unreasonable to do, but the context is different. Would you be surprised if FSDO told you it counted?

I guess we don't agree on what the context is either. I may be looking at "context" more broadly than you. Either one of us might be right or wrong.

Surprised by anything a FDSO might say? I've seen enough incorrect interpretations from individual ASIs through the years to not be surprised by anything they might say. I've watched two ASIs disagree about an interpretation of a regulation. Less so, but to some degree that's also true of written letters from Flight Standards itself, at least when they are not publicly published.

There's going to be a relatively recent example in an upcoming IFR Magazine (probably in the summer). For an old one, we can go maybe 20 years back when the Buffalo FSDO published an interpretation on their website saying that every leg of a student cross country had to be >50NM.

 

[dmspilot]

The reg says the flight must occur in nighttime conditions. Not part of the flight. I've always interpreted both the private and commercial night cross-country requirements as requiring both the takeoff and landing at night. Otherwise it's just night flight time, and cross country time, and part of it even is night cross-country time. But the regs we're talking about don't require "night cross-country time." They require discrete cross-country flights performed at night.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The reg says the flight must occur in nighttime conditions. Not part of the flight. I've always interpreted both the private and commercial night cross-country requirements as requiring both the takeoff and landing at night. Otherwise it's just night flight time, and cross country time, and part of it even is night cross-country time. But the regs we're talking about don't require "night cross-country time." They require discrete cross-country flights performed at night.

The other piece is to realize that we are not only dealing with the words in the regulation. There are plenty of examples of regulations being interpreted to effect a policy decision that aren't really in the words of the regulation. Sometimes restrictive (as in the only one pilot logs cross country time) sometimes expansive (as in the interpretation allowing a safety pilot to log PIC). But they have been there for years.

So alt least part of the context for me here is, is is the FAA's policy to allow a pilot to meet the night dual cross country commercial requirement on a 2-hour 100 nm flight in which the period at night consists of 0.1?

 

[Lindberg]

The reg says the flight must occur in nighttime conditions. Not part of the flight. I've always interpreted both the private and commercial night cross-country requirements as requiring both the takeoff and landing at night. Otherwise it's just night flight time, and cross country time, and part of it even is night cross-country time. But the regs we're talking about don't require "night cross-country time." They require discrete cross-country flights performed at night.

So do you disagree with the posters who say you can fix this by doing a touch-and-go after dark? That would still just be one flight that started during the day.

 

[RussR]

So do you disagree with the posters who say you can fix this by doing a touch-and-go after dark? That would still just be one flight that started during the day.

That really depends on how it's logged, though.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

If somebody wants to warp the meaning and the wording and pretend it means something other than it does then there is nothing to stop them. Maybe they get caught and maybe they don't. In terms of context, the requirement before the nighttime flight gives context. If this is just all academic then it has no meaning so just continue batting this around and have fun.
===
(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
===
Yes. The entire "nighttime" XC flight including the takeoff and landing are to be done in "nighttime conditions".

To pretend otherwise is just a silly word game.

 

[dmspilot]

So do you disagree with the posters who say you can fix this by doing a touch-and-go after dark? That would still just be one flight that started during the day.

I disagree with your interpretation of what the other posters have written. I believe they intended that the touch-and-go was to be used as a way to establish a new flight. Not "one flight that started during the day" with a touch-and-go in the middle.

 

[Pinecone]

No, 14 CFR states

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
…
b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
…
(3) Conditions of flight -

(i) Day or night.

Seems clear and binary to me.

Only that it cannot be the same for the same time.

So if you fly for 2 hours, you cannot have 2 hours day and 2 hours night. You could log 1 hour day and 1 hour night, if that is how the time split went.

 

[WDD]

I did the 2 hour day flight, dinner, 2 hour night flight in a complex plane to double dip and chip away on the complex 10 hour requirement.

 

[Lindberg]

I disagree with your interpretation of what the other posters have written. I believe they intended that the touch-and-go was to be used as a way to establish a new flight. Not "one flight that started during the day" with a touch-and-go in the middle.

I don't see a good argument that a touch-and-go starts a whole new flight. Does the t-n-g airport become the original point of origin?

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

I don't see a good argument that a touch-and-go starts a whole new flight. Does the t-n-g airport become the original point of origin?

FAA, Glenn, 2009: "There is nothing in § 61.1 (b )(3)(ii) or previous FAA interpretations dictating how separate flights must be logged. Accordingly, the pilot may choose what is considered a discreet flight and what is merely a segment of a flight, and then log that time appropriately when the flight is conducted."

@Lindberg - Is there a particular point you are trying to make?

 

[RussR]

I don't see a good argument that a touch-and-go starts a whole new flight. Does the t-n-g airport become the original point of origin?

You fly from AAA to BBB, do a touch and go at BBB, then fly to CCC.

You decide to log it like this:
2/27/23 AAA-BBB, 1 night landing, 1.0 day, 1.0 night, etc.
2/27/23 BBB-CCC, 1 night landing, 2.0 night, etc.

I see nothing morally, ethically, or regulationally wrong with choosing to make the entry that way if you wish. And if you do, you are clearly establishing BBB-CCC as a separate flight and I don't think anyone could dispute that.

 

[MauleSkinner]

You fly from AAA to BBB, do a touch and go at BBB, then fly to CCC.

You decide to log it like this:
2/27/23 AAA-BBB, 1 night landing, 1.0 day, 1.0 night, etc.
2/27/23 BBB-CCC, 1 night landing, 2.0 night, etc.

I see nothing morally, ethically, or regulationally wrong with choosing to make the entry that way if you wish. And if you do, you are clearly establishing BBB-CCC as a separate flight and I don't think anyone could dispute that.

If the landing doesn’t count for currency, does the takeoff count as a takeoff to make it a separate flight?

 

[Lindberg]

You fly from AAA to BBB, do a touch and go at BBB, then fly to CCC.

You decide to log it like this:
2/27/23 AAA-BBB, 1 night landing, 1.0 day, 1.0 night, etc.
2/27/23 BBB-CCC, 1 night landing, 2.0 night, etc.

I see nothing morally, ethically, or regulationally wrong with choosing to make the entry that way if you wish. And if you do, you are clearly establishing BBB-CCC as a separate flight and I don't think anyone could dispute that.

What about the fact that "flight time" is defined as, "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing"?

If one flight can end and another begin while the aircraft is still moving on the ground, why not in the air?

 

[Rgbeard]

@Lindbergh

You’re obviously pursuing this with an agenda to interpret something one way or another. Can you give us visibility into your intent?

Are you simply trying to do a 3-leg trip without landing that many times?

 

[dmspilot]

I don't see a good argument that a touch-and-go starts a whole new flight. Does the t-n-g airport become the original point of origin?

What would the point of the touch-and-go be if it didn't? I thought that was the whole point. Not saying it's correct, but if a touch-and-go can't be used as a way to start a new flight, then how does it help satisfy the requirement?

What about the fact that "flight time" is defined as, "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing"?

If one flight can end and another begin while the aircraft is still moving on the ground, why not in the air?

Whether a touch-and-go is sufficient to separate flight time into distinct flights, I don't know. I think a full stop landing would follow the letter of the law more closely.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

If the landing doesn’t count for currency, does the takeoff count as a takeoff to make it a separate flight?

Yes. The FAA makes distinctions for currency. So a touch and go for night time XC would be counting (assuming meeting the other requirements) for the XC CPL however would not be useful towards night currency.

Whether a touch-and-go is sufficient to separate flight time into distinct flights, I don't know. I think a full stop landing would follow the letter of the law more closely.

When the FAA wants a full-stop landings, they say so. A touch and go is a landing which is both obvious and explicitly said so multiple times.

PPL Aeronautical Experience
14 CFR 61.109(a)(5)(ii): One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations;

CPL Aeronautical Experience
14 CFR 61.129(a)(4)(i): One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles;

For the PPL XC, a full stop landing is explicitly required at three point. for the CPL XC, a landing is required which by any reasonable reading (when read in context) would include a touch and go.

If one flight can end and another begin while the aircraft is still moving on the ground, why not in the air?

Unrelated to satisfying requirements for a certificate or rating, if you want to log in two entries that which somebody else chooses to log in one entry in your logbook, the previous post I made with reference to Glenn 2009 clearly allows this.