Another Class Bravo airport: Cincinnati (CVG)

Martin Pauly

Martin Pauly

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Martin Pauly
This was #14 on my list of Class Bravo airports in the Bonanza. Only 20 more to go! :)

On the flight home from the recent BT fly-in in Knoxville, I stopped in Cincinnati (KCVG) on the way back to Iowa. The flight wasn't difficult, but clouds, rain and a little bit of turbulence (from the leftovers of hurricane Delta) made it just enough of a challenge to keep it interesting.

 
I mean, technically the Cincinnati airport is in Kentucky. Cincinnati Northern Kentucky International seems like a mouthful...repaired a bunch of columns for a cargo company down there. Man them forklift drivers are animals!
 
The controllers there are always so nice and helpful too. I’ve done a touch and go there coming out of LUK before. I had heard at one point they may get downgraded to a Charlie, after one,of the airlines pulled a lot of flights out, but Amazon helped stave that off.
 
tree96 said:
I had heard at one point they may get downgraded to a Charlie, after one,of the airlines pulled a lot of flights out, but Amazon helped stave that off.
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I could see that; it also made me wonder: has that ever happened (i.e. downgrade from B to C)? I can't think of an example.

- Martin
 
Racerx said:
I mean, technically the Cincinnati airport is in Kentucky. Cincinnati Northern Kentucky International seems like a mouthful...repaired a bunch of columns for a cargo company down there. Man them forklift drivers are animals!
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I remember being on a flight (I think we were supposed to go to Midway) that got diverted at CVG. As we were getting off the plane the woman behind me was lamenting that she didn't want to go to Ohio. I told her that I had bad news for her, she wasn't even in Ohio, but Kentucky.
 
There’s no real incentive to downgrade the airspace of an airport. ATC can combine frequencies and reduce staffing so that it is operated like a class C airport, while maintaining the airspace, approach corridors, etc., necessary to accommodate higher volume should it return in the future.

The closest a class C will get to downgrading to a class D is through a tracon consolidation. Regardless of the traffic counts for the center airport, ATC is never going to drop radar coverage. Even if they did, the job would just go to center, so it doesn’t really save money. WVA is proof that you don’t need traffic counts to maintain class C, D or TRSAs.
 
I remember when CVG was an airline hub and the answer to entering the Class B or getting a practice approach was not just "no".... Then the airline pulled back and they were begging for GA traffic to keep staffing up. Heck, the FBO was run by an airline (Comair).

They did fine with the satellite airports, including LUK and (rip) ISZ, and those controllers were helpful and friendly. Glad they are treating folks well now.
 
Martin Pauly said:
This was #14 on my list of Class Bravo airports in the Bonanza. Only 20 more to go! :)

On the flight home from the recent BT fly-in in Knoxville, I stopped in Cincinnati (KCVG) on the way back to Iowa. The flight wasn't difficult, but clouds, rain and a little bit of turbulence (from the leftovers of hurricane Delta) made it just enough of a challenge to keep it interesting.

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Excellent. I did most of my training at KLUK, nearby. I've done T&Gs at KCVG, usually at night; on the long runways, I could probably do it three times each pass!
 
tree96 said:
The controllers there are always so nice and helpful too. I’ve done a touch and go there coming out of LUK before. I had heard at one point they may get downgraded to a Charlie, after one,of the airlines pulled a lot of flights out, but Amazon helped stave that off.
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There were a Charlie originally, then upgraded to Bravo, then the local gov't fell for Delta's outright lies. It's probably "Charlie busy" now.
 
N1120A said:
Has a C been downgraded to a D even?
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Brad Z said:
The closest a class C will get to downgrading to a class D is through a tracon consolidation. Regardless of the traffic counts for the center airport, ATC is never going to drop radar coverage. Even if they did, the job would just go to center, so it doesn’t really save money.
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I’m not sure how many times it’s happened but at least once.
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2010/may/24/columbus-ga-airspace-to-become-class-d
 
Martin Pauly said:
This was #14 on my list of Class Bravo airports in the Bonanza. Only 20 more to go! :)
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I know you've flown into Kennedy. Are LaGuardia and Newark still on the list or because you've hit one airport in the class B, it covers the area?
 
Justin M said:
I know you've flown into Kennedy. Are LaGuardia and Newark still on the list or because you've hit one airport in the class B, it covers the area?
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No shortcuts, Justin - that wouldn't be fun! :)
LGA and EWR are still on the list.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
No shortcuts, Justin - that wouldn't be fun! :)
LGA and EWR are still on the list.

- Martin
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Grin.

Did Teterboro, NJ (KTEB) count when you landed there? Technically, you could get there without a Bravo clearance, but the top of the Class Delta is inside the Bravo.

I once tried to get Teterboro to let me fly through their Class D (from Caldwell, NJ (KCDW) to the west) to get to the Hudson river at 1,100 (which is also under the bravo until 1,300) ; but they said they would not. I think legally they could have, but they turned me down when I called in advance (via telephone) to see how they would respond.
 
Justin M said:
Did Teterboro, NJ (KTEB) count when you landed there?
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No. Teterboro is not a Class Bravo airport. Interestingly, neither is Dallas Love, even though it has Class Bravo airspace to the surface. Unlike Houston Hobby, which IS a Class Bravo Airport.

Any rhyme or reason? Maybe not, but that's how it's defined. ;)

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
No. Teterboro is not a Class Bravo airport. Interestingly, neither is Dallas Love, even though it has Class Bravo airspace to the surface. Unlike Houston Hobby, which IS a Class Bravo Airport.

Any rhyme or reason? Maybe not, but that's how it's defined. ;)

- Martin
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Okay, I'll bite...how is DAL not considered a class bravo airport, considered it is located inside of class bravo airspace? Class Bravo refers to the class of airspace...it's not an airport classification (although practically speaking we treat it that way).
 
Justin M said:
Grin.

Did Teterboro, NJ (KTEB) count when you landed there? Technically, you could get there without a Bravo clearance, but the top of the Class Delta is inside the Bravo.

I once tried to get Teterboro to let me fly through their Class D (from Caldwell, NJ (KCDW) to the west) to get to the Hudson river at 1,100 (which is also under the bravo until 1,300) ; but they said they would not. I think legally they could have, but they turned me down when I called in advance (via telephone) to see how they would respond.
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There's no such thing as class D airspace inside B airspace. Only a small portion of TEB class D surface area goes up to 2,500 (the small slither to the northwest); the rest terminates at the floor of the class B shelf.
 
Brad Z said:
Okay, I'll bite...how is DAL not considered a class bravo airport, considered it is located inside of class bravo airspace? Class Bravo refers to the class of airspace...it's not an airport classification (although practically speaking we treat it that way).
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Well... airspace is one thing, the airport is another thing. I'm trying to find the exact reference; I think it's Part 91 Appendix D.

If you think about it, satellite airports within the Class B or C surface area of a larger main airport aren't that uncommon, and the satellite airports rarely share the same classification as the main airport.

- Martin
 
flyingron said:
I remember being on a flight (I think we were supposed to go to Midway) that got diverted at CVG. As we were getting off the plane the woman behind me was lamenting that she didn't want to go to Ohio. I told her that I had bad news for her, she wasn't even in Ohio, but Kentucky.
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I discovered CVG was not in Ohio, but in Kentucky, a long time ago while waiting to change flights there. I sat down in a restaurant in a concourse, and I ordered an alcohol-free beer with my lunch, but I was refused! I was told that my O'Doul's couldn't be served because (a) the time was before noon on a Sunday, (b) it was in Kentucky, and (c) alcohol-free beer contains alcohol. Sheesh!
 
Martin Pauly said:
Well... airspace is one thing, the airport is another thing. I'm trying to find the exact reference; I think it's Part 91 Appendix D.

If you think about it, satellite airports within the Class B or C surface area of a larger main airport aren't that uncommon, and the satellite airports rarely share the same classification as the main airport.

- Martin
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Satellite airports are located under class B airspace, like Teterboro or Addison TX. Airports that share class B airspace, like LGA in NY or BWI in MD are not considered satellites.

You are correct in that for whatever reason, the 30nm mode C/ADS-B ring is not arced 30nm around DAL in addition to DFW. But that doesn't functionally change how the airspace is operated.
 
Brad Z said:
Satellite airports are located under class B airspace, like Teterboro or Addison TX.
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I should have described that differently, Brad. What I meant was airports like Prescott, AZ, where within the surface area of the Class D airspace there is another airport (in this case a private airport) which shares the airspace but does not make the smaller airport controlled. You are correct that this is not the most typical example of a satellite airport.

For the larger airports like DFW vs. DAL, or IAH vs. HOU, it is really more an academic question than a practical one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Class_B_airports_in_the_United_States has a list of Class Bravo airports and explains the difference between Class Bravo airspace vs. airport. I wish they had included a clear regulatory reference which defined the list.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
I should have described that differently, Brad. What I meant was airports like Prescott, AZ, where within the surface area of the Class D airspace there is another airport (in this case a private airport) which shares the airspace but does not make the smaller airport controlled. You are correct that this is not the most typical example of a satellite airport.

For the larger airports like DFW vs. DAL, or IAH vs. HOU, it is really more an academic question than a practical one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Class_B_airports_in_the_United_States has a list of Class Bravo airports and explains the difference between Class Bravo airspace vs. airport. I wish they had included a clear regulatory reference which defined the list.

- Martin
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Technically, an airport that sits inside class D airspace, even if it is not towered, exists in controlled airspace. As such, they adhere to 91.129(c)(2)(ii) or have letter of agreement that allows for ingress/egress with modified requirements.

The primary airport classification in the FAA is its NPIAS classification, which is based on number of operations and emplanements. The Air traffic folks design the airspace based on the needs of the airport and surrounding activities. This ties very closely with the airport's NPIAS classification, but is not one-for-one. Years ago the FAA did have the Operational Evolution Partnership (OEP) 35 of capacity constrained airports, but again that's not related to airspace, even though most (all?) were located in class B airspace.
 
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