Announcing on CTAF 15 miles out - why is this a thing?

unsafervguy said:
since i fly an RV, i don't announce at all, come straight in and do an overhead break wearing my flight suit and mirrored raybans!
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Is yours painted in official military colors? ;)
 
NoBShere said:
I really like the pilots that decide to have a full on conversation with each other in the pattern. I also really like the call outs of "over the river" or "over the golf course" when going to new or less frequently visited airports. Which golf course and what part of the river. I know roughly what 5 miles southwest is, no idea what part of "the river" you are over. As others have said, 15 mile out call can be helpful especially if in a quicker plane than the common trainer or slow citabria, etc etc.
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But....if you were to go to Cambridge there is no doubt where the bridge is and where the golf course is on short final. The airport is near the Choptank river....
 
Lowflynjack said:
I use my airplane model and call sign as recommended, Skylane N2743G, but again, I feel there are exceptions. When I flew the Meyer Little Toot, I would call out Red & White Biplane instead of Meyer or Experimental.
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Right. If you're flying a white Cessna, by all means use your N-number so people can get it straight that 37U is on downwind and it's 86K that just turned final. No, nobody's gonna be able to read the numbers. But for a plane color or type that's easily picked out visually, that information is more useful.

When I make a call just ID'ing as "biplane", that's more useful to anybody else in the pattern than "experimental Hatz 5GM".
MooneyDriver78 said:
1. I think calls should be on turns where the position likely is more precise….”Cirrus turning left base 24”, but that’s not how it’s taught.
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That's what I do.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
But....if you were to go to Cambridge there is no doubt where the bridge is and where the golf course is on short final. The airport is near the Choptank river....
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Since I don't know which Cambridge airport you are referring to I'll assume Cambridge - Dorchester since you are from Maryland. Assuming is ripe for failure. Looking at the chart, the charted golf course looks about 5nm out, not sure i would equate that to short final. But, regardless of which cambridge airport I'm at, short final is widely understood. Or does the golf course you refer to belong to the charted resort on short final?
 
NoBShere said:
Since I don't know which Cambridge airport you are referring to I'll assume Cambridge - Dorchester since you are from Maryland. Assuming is ripe for failure. Looking at the chart, the charted golf course looks about 5nm out, not sure i would equate that to short final. But, regardless of which cambridge airport I'm at, short final is widely understood. Or does the golf course you refer to belong to the charted resort on short final?
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Yes....it's closer than 5mi....more like 1.5 mi. And how many bridges do you see charted near there? These are easy landmarks that anyone in the area knows. (1) golf course (1.5 mi)....and (1) bridge (3 mi).....you can't miss them.
 
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MooneyDriver78 said:
1. I think calls should be on turns where the position likely is more precise….”Cirrus turning left base 24”, but that’s not how it’s taught.
2. Tail number is just info I don’t need, Cirrus on base, or Cirrus on midfield downwind. If I want to direct a call to a specific plane, I just use position, “Cirrus turning base, is this a full stop?” I don’t have to remember if it was 123 or 789, and obviously they should recognize the call is for them.
3. Generally you don’t need a full picture, just who is close. If I’m entering a downwind on a 45°, why would I care who is on base? Exception for a plane not in a standard pattern (turbo prop, helicopter…) or if doing something not expected.
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1. When you have planes making anywhere from power off 180's to 2 and 3 mile base turns, how precise is that?
2. So rather than putting together a mental picture, you would rather put the onus on everyone else. You must work in automotive, and just push every thing off on suppliers.
3. Maybe you're on an instrument approach but haven't broke out yet and need to determine whether you can go straight in, or need to fly the pattern, maybe you're making a crosswind leg, maybe you have to go around and have to re-establish. Maybe you're on downwind, and that was 456's first call for some reason, and it's not a Cirrus but a 152. There are a bunch of reasons.

But hey, throw it on everyone else, because hey, why not, I guess. ATTITPA indeed.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Yes....it's closer than 5mi....more like 1.5 mi. And how many bridges do you see charted near there? These are easy landmarks that anyone in the area knows. (1) golf course (1.5 mi)....and (1) bridge (3 mi).....you can't miss them.
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ok, so when you say golf course, you mean the charted resort not the charted golf course? or are you saying the published chart is wrong? the chart shows a golf course west of the bridge and resort east of the bridge. Google earth shows a golf course (charted resort) east of the bridge and the charted golf course west of the bridge which is definitely not short final. so you are sticking with someone flying into the airport for the first time is going to know that when they hear on CTAF over the golf course that means over the charted resort and not over the charted golf course?

I do agree that the bridge is likely obvious. I don't agree that calling the charted resort the golf course on ctaf is clear when there is another golf course in the vicinity that is charted as "golf couse". Seems like common terms (i.e. 5 miles out, turning base runway x, turning final, runway y) would be more universally understood. or call me crazy, maybe use the terms on the chart.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Keep in mind that at bizjet speeds, 10 mi out is possibly 9 from actually IN the pattern and that can be 180 seconds away. Not sure what speed traffic you had… but 15 mi is not a lot of warning. ...
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Sluggo63 said:
I've always based my calls based on minutes, not miles. I'll give my distance in miles, but make the call 5 minutes out.
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I do something similar. I figured the FAA guidance of 10 miles assumes an average airspeed of about 120 kts, so that's 5 minutes. I call when about 5 minutes out (whatever I'm flying, whatever my airspeed), and announce it in minutes because that seems more useful than miles. As I'm entering the pattern I give it in miles since everyone is closer to the same airspeed and miles is more useful.
 
4RNB said:
... Pilots stating, “Traffic in the area, please advise” is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.
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When the radio isn't busy, I'm tempted to reply, "I advise learning proper radio communications". ;)
 
Those calls don't bother me as much as the guys that NEED more radio practice, take 2 minutes to give a position report with a lot of "Uh's" followed normally by a stuck mic:mad:
 
MRC01 said:
When the radio isn't busy, I'm tempted to reply, "I advise learning proper radio communications". ;)
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I think of doing something similar. But I don't for a couple of reasons.
1. I expect they really do it because they were IFR talking to ATC until just the moment before. Perhaps they are really just inquiring for best management.
2. With a world of rules, at times things are almost set up for such codified rudeness. I don't want to be that guy.
 
danhagan said:
Those calls don't bother me as much as the guys that NEED more radio practice, take 2 minutes to give a position report with a lot of "Uh's" followed normally by a stuck mic:mad:
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"Podunk airport unicom ... this is ... ugh ... a white and yeller homebuilt experimental november wun two tree ... flyduck model tree wid a 180 hp lyco mota ... weez ugh 10 to 12 miles to the northeast at ugh ... well more north than east really ... and descending through about two thousand feet or so and we'll be ... ugh ... entering a forty five for downwind to runway ... ugh ... ugh ... two niner after we cross midfield at fifteen hundred feet for a ... ugh ... teardrop entry to the forty five downwind for runway ... ugh ... two niner ... and then left traffic for a full stop landing for bathroom break and some ... ugh ... fuel. ATITPPA Podunk airport ..."
 
TL;DR: I am almost always listening by 15 miles out. I might say something around the 10-mile mark, but it depends on the situation. You can tell the people who aren't really listening by what they're saying. And if they're not really listening, they're probably not really looking, either. I think the real sin here is that the other pilot wasn't really paying attention to the situation, leading him to make a long and unhelpful radio call.
 
EdFred said:
1. When you have planes making anywhere from power off 180's to 2 and 3 mile base turns, how precise is that?
2. So rather than putting together a mental picture, you would rather put the onus on everyone else. You must work in automotive, and just push every thing off on suppliers.
3. Maybe you're on an instrument approach but haven't broke out yet and need to determine whether you can go straight in, or need to fly the pattern, maybe you're making a crosswind leg, maybe you have to go around and have to re-establish. Maybe you're on downwind, and that was 456's first call for some reason, and it's not a Cirrus but a 152. There are a bunch of reasons.

But hey, throw it on everyone else, because hey, why not, I guess. ATTITPA indeed.
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What?! It’s less burdensome for everyone else, type and location is all I need, nice and short. You don’t need a tail number and description of the paint job to complete the mental picture.
Maybe IFR traffic has to worry about merging with pattern traffic? Maybe someone flying a 152 thinks they’re flying a Cirrus? Those are some maybes.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
My CFI taught me to never use tail number, he said if they should never be close enough to read your tail number. I don’t use colors either, just type and position. The type isn’t so they will be able to visually identify me, but realize I’m going to be faster than a typical trainer.
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In practical use, aircraft and pilot first name would work just about as well as color or tail number. “Stationaire Dave” or “Skyhawk Jim” would work well with fewer syllables even when Skyhawk Jim B showed up.
 
dbahn said:
In practical use, aircraft and pilot first name would work just about as well as color or tail number. “Stationaire Dave” or “Skyhawk Jim” would work well with fewer syllables even when Skyhawk Jim B showed up.
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Unless you fly a Skyhawk (the most common airplane ever made) and your name is John (the most common men's name). You could get a pattern full of "Skyhawk John" ;)
 
We have a number of nearby airports using the same CTAF (122.8) and one in particular has one runway that's the same as my home field. Recently I heard traffic calling base for 23 (and I was pretty sure it wasn't at my home field as I was approaching it) but that pilot gave no call as to what airport he was approaching. When I enquired where he was he replied, "on final." I asked where and he said, "23". I then asked, "what airport?" He answered and confirmed what I suspected i.e. he was at another airport 18 miles away.

I wanted to educate him but I'm not his instructor nor his parent ...
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
What?! It’s less burdensome for everyone else, type and location is all I need, nice and short. You don’t need a tail number and description of the paint job to complete the mental picture.
Maybe IFR traffic has to worry about merging with pattern traffic? Maybe someone flying a 152 thinks they’re flying a Cirrus? Those are some maybes.
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They aren't maybes. They happen every weekend.
Until you have to ask which plane is doing what. Where if you just formulated a mental picture you wouldn't need to clog up the radio with a question that could be answered my giving and listening enough information with each radio call. But go ahead, let the squeals fly when you're on 122.8 on a nice Saturday morning.

And it's not just for YOU. You know the conveyed information for everyone else in the pattern as well, right? No, of course not.
 
unsafervguy said:
thats when i reply, "thats great, but my screen shows n numbers not colors!'
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but aren't you supposed to be looking out the window and not at that screen? ;)

TommyG said:
I’m still trying to figure out where the whole using plane color on CTAF became a thing. Flew for years no one used color, the. One day late 2000s people started using color. Which is fine if you have a yellow cub, or a an all read plane. But seriously when 6 white Cessna are in the pattern, why?
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I certainly was not taught that way back in the 1990's... but I've gotta say I think it makes a bit of good sense in a VFR pattern.... like someone said earlier in the thread, I don't believe I've ever read a single tail number on a different aircraft while flying a pattern, but I can sure spot a yellow high wing or a white low wing.... & I'm enough of an airplane nerd to know the general shapes to look for for piper, mooney, cessna, citation, lear, etc....
 
Daleandee said:
We have a number of nearby airports using the same CTAF (122.8) and one in particular has one runway that's the same as my home field. Recently I heard traffic calling base for 23 (and I was pretty sure it wasn't at my home field as I was approaching it) but that pilot gave no call as to what airport he was approaching. When I enquired where he was he replied, "on final." I asked where and he said, "23". I then asked, "what airport?" He answered and confirmed what I suspected i.e. he was at another airport 18 miles away.
...
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Some pilots seem unaware that the CTAF frequency isn't specific to their airport, but used across an entire area. They must not be listening to the radio very well, else they'd hear different locations being mentioned.
 
MRC01 said:
Some pilots seem unaware that the CTAF frequency isn't specific to their airport, but used across an entire area. They must not be listening to the radio very well, else they'd hear different locations being mentioned.
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We have quite a few nearby and most pilots are very good about giving the airport name at the beginning & end of their radio calls, as they should. Don't know if he was a student or just unlearned ...
 
Daleandee said:
We have quite a few nearby and most pilots are very good about giving the airport name at the beginning & end of their radio calls, as they should. Don't know if he was a student or just unlearned ...
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Or the guys that just mumble the name of the airport. Or guys that have been there forever that use the old name that quit being published 5 years ago, and you have no idea he's at the same airport as you.
 
EdFred said:
They aren't maybes. They happen every weekend.
Until you have to ask which plane is doing what. Where if you just formulated a mental picture you wouldn't need to clog up the radio with a question that could be answered my giving and listening enough information with each radio call. But go ahead, let the squeals fly when you're on 122.8 on a nice Saturday morning.

And it's not just for YOU. You know the conveyed information for everyone else in the pattern as well, right? No, of course not.
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I never said I was going to ask anything, I just pointed out you don’t need the tail number to talk to another pilot in the pattern.
 
danhagan said:
Those calls don't bother me as much as the guys that NEED more radio practice, take 2 minutes to give a position report with a lot of "Uh's" followed normally by a stuck mic:mad:
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100%.
Every time I hear one of those I instantly think of this guy.
"Everyone on the frequency is now dumber from having listened to you"
 
ateamer said:
In Florida, there are so many fields that all of the Unicom frequencies and CTAF are busy.
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I live in the Matanuska Valley in Alaska. I'm familiar with a high density of airstrips operating on one frequency.
 
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Brad W said:
but aren't you supposed to be looking out the window and not at that screen? ;)


I certainly was not taught that way back in the 1990's... but I've gotta say I think it makes a bit of good sense in a VFR pattern.... like someone said earlier in the thread, I don't believe I've ever read a single tail number on a different aircraft while flying a pattern, but I can sure spot a yellow high wing or a white low wing.... & I'm enough of an airplane nerd to know the general shapes to look for for piper, mooney, cessna, citation, lear, etc....
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We have high student activity at our field, they're all Cessna 172's with a cute little Blue stripe that you MIGHT see a split second before impact ... or in short, everyone is a "white Cessna" around here except us older pilots flying a Tiger, RV, etc.

EdFred said:
Or the guys that just mumble the name of the airport. Or guys that have been there forever that use the old name that quit being published 5 years ago, and you have no idea he's at the same airport as you.
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Our field used to be Santa Teresa years ago and pilots would interchange that and Dona Ana airport ... had that happen to me in Alabama, thought the pilot was at a different field, his positon calls were incorrect also besides using a "field name" not on the sectional ... had the low wing-high wing interaction on downwind things got very close ...
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
What?! It’s less burdensome for everyone else, type and location is all I need, nice and short. You don’t need a tail number and description of the paint job to complete the mental picture.
Maybe IFR traffic has to worry about merging with pattern traffic? Maybe someone flying a 152 thinks they’re flying a Cirrus? Those are some maybes.
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except in this age of glass being common, n number gives a great deal of information. since my dynon not only shows position, relative altitude, and n number the direction arrow is also a speed vector, so when i hear bugsmasher 123 5 miles north one quick glance verifies where he is, where he is moving and at what general speed he is moving. without an n number i cannot verify that the traffic im looking for and also have on the screen is really him or if he cant judge distance worth a crap.not to mention the AIM and ac 90-66b say you should use it.
 
Brad W said:
but aren't you supposed to be looking out the window and not at that screen? ;)


I certainly was not taught that way back in the 1990's... but I've gotta say I think it makes a bit of good sense in a VFR pattern.... like someone said earlier in the thread, I don't believe I've ever read a single tail number on a different aircraft while flying a pattern, but I can sure spot a yellow high wing or a white low wing.... & I'm enough of an airplane nerd to know the general shapes to look for for piper, mooney, cessna, citation, lear, etc....
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When large majority of Cessna and piper are white, makes no sense. And the little pinstripe of different color doesn’t change things much.
 
It’s all about increasing Situational Awareness. Everybody taxiing, departing, arriving, in the circuit etc needs to know (have a mental position) where everyone is to see them in time and avoid collisions and near misses. The busier the airport, the more important the radio calls are. I have often heard calls nearby and not seen them, so I change direction away as best I can. Those other buggers are often very hard to see! Cheers.
 
unsafervguy said:
except in this age of glass being common, n number gives a great deal of information. since my dynon not only shows position, relative altitude, and n number the direction arrow is also a speed vector, so when i hear bugsmasher 123 5 miles north one quick glance verifies where he is, where he is moving and at what general speed he is moving.
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My N-number won't do you much good, the only way you'll see me (and a lot of other people) is if you look outside...
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
1. I think calls should be on turns where the position likely is more precise….”Cirrus turning left base 24”, but that’s not how it’s taught.
2. Tail number is just info I don’t need, Cirrus on base, or Cirrus on midfield downwind. If I want to direct a call to a specific plane, I just use position, “Cirrus turning base, is this a full stop?” I don’t have to remember if it was 123 or 789, and obviously they should recognize the call is for them.
3. Generally you don’t need a full picture, just who is close. If I’m entering a downwind on a 45°, why would I care who is on base? Exception for a plane not in a standard pattern (turbo prop, helicopter…) or if doing something not expected.
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1) I agree. I make my calls as I turn. I am also much more visible in a bank.
2) It is about knowing are their one or two or three. I use full tail number on my 6 - 10 mile call, then type and last 3 after that.
3) Full picture is so much better. Much less chance of a surprise.
 
TommyG said:
I’m still trying to figure out where the whole using plane color on CTAF became a thing. Flew for years no one used color, the. One day late 2000s people started using color. Which is fine if you have a yellow cub, or a an all read plane. But seriously when 6 white Cessna are in the pattern, why?
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It is evidently too much effort to remember and memorize two or more three-character IDs while operating an aircraft. I blame public schools...
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
1. I think calls should be on turns where the position likely is more precise….”Cirrus turning left base 24”, but that’s not how it’s taught.
2. Tail number is just info I don’t need, Cirrus on base, or Cirrus on midfield downwind. If I want to direct a call to a specific plane, I just use position, “Cirrus turning base, is this a full stop?” I don’t have to remember if it was 123 or 789, and obviously they should recognize the call is for them.
3. Generally you don’t need a full picture, just who is close. If I’m entering a downwind on a 45°, why would I care who is on base? Exception for a plane not in a standard pattern (turbo prop, helicopter…) or if doing something not expected.
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I do need the full picture. I do not have the option to fly at 75 kts. SE speed is 90+ knots and I need to be able to make the runway- FAA expects that I will make the runway when I lose one.
 
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