Animals on airlines clampdown

I still don't why we can't just create a verifiable training certification for necessary ESA and Service Animal.
 
Shawn said:
I still don't why we can't just create a verifiable training certification for necessary ESA and Service Animal.
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Who would be the certifying authority?

The FAA maybe. In designing their regulations, the FAA could use, as a template, their methods of pilot certification. Just imagine. There would be FAA handbooks for dog training. The FAA would outsource the testing program by selecting DPEs (Designated Puppy Examiners) to give practical exams, along with AMEs (Aviation Mutt Examiners) to issue dog medical certificates (Class I II and III). Special issuances would be processed in OKC. The anonymous sections of online forums would be filled with hundreds of posts asking: if I bit someone in a fit of youthful foolishness when I was a puppy, can I still get a medical?
 
NoHeat said:
Who would be the certifying authority?

The FAA maybe. In designing their regulations, the FAA could use, as a template, their methods of pilot certification. Just imagine. There would be FAA handbooks for dog training. The FAA would outsource the testing program by selecting DPEs (Designated Puppy Examiners) to give practical exams, along with AMEs (Aviation Mutt Examiners) to issue dog medical certificates (Class I II and III). Special issuances would be processed in OKC. The anonymous sections of online forums would be filled with hundreds of posts asking: if I bit someone in a fit of youthful foolishness when I was a puppy, can I still get a medical?
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Sounds purrfect. Woof!
 
As long as I can still bring on my Emotional Support Chicken.

308dafaf-ddb3-4b28-9ad9-02f90cec1f07-emotionalchicken.jpeg
 
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From the family plot in NC.

And Bryan’s CFI has “George the Judgement Chicken”
 
It's one thing if you have an actually trained service animal, like a seeing eye guide dog, etc. But people who come on the plane with an "emotional support" cat, or something to that effect, it's ridiculous. And this is coming from a dog owner
 
We ALL freaking need emotional support in coach class. I'm sure these housefraus can replace fluffy-snookums for a box of bon bons and make do.

The whole "takin my doggo shopping" trend should be next. I'd like to select my yogurt without some unruly hound's nose in my crotch while its owner fires off hashtags into the void.

lawn, get offit, etc.
 
NoHeat said:
Who would be the certifying authority?
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The VA relies on outside organizations to define what is and what isn't a service or guide dog :

Recognized Service Dogs for the Insurance Benefit: VA will recognize, for the purpose of paying benefits the following service dogs: The dog and veteran must have successfully completed a training program offered by an organization accredited by Assistance Dogs International or the International Guide Dog Federation, or both (for dogs that perform both service- and guide-dog assistance). The veteran must provide to VA a certificate showing successful completion issued by the accredited organization that provided such program.
 
Is it they clamped down on bringing animals aboard

...or clamped down on bringing animals aboard without paying more money?
 
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James331 said:
Is it them clamped down on bringing animals aboard

...or clamped down on bringing animals aboard without paying more money?
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Yes. It’s all about the Benjamins. Until they get sued by a passenger after being bitten or mauled by someone’s dog, or after a child, who is allergic to dogs or cats goes into anaphylactic shock and dies. Then the airlines and these crazy nuts who can’t leave the house without their damn dog or cat might think twice. I am a pet lover, but this is going way too far. Here in CDA, a blind person lost the services of his dog last year after it was repeatedly attacked by “well behaved, emotional support dogs” in a local grocery store. After the attacks, the dog simply stopped working. In case you aren’t aware, dogs for the sight impaired take about 18 months to train and cost over $20K.
 
Jumpmaster said:
Yes. It’s all about the Benjamins. Until they get sued by a passenger after being bitten or mauled by someone’s dog, or after a child, who is allergic to dogs or cats goes into anaphylactic shock and dies. Then the airlines and these crazy nuts who can’t leave the house without their damn dog or cat might think twice. I am a pet lover, but this is going way too far. Here in CDA, a blind person lost the services of his dog last year after it was repeatedly attacked by “well behaved, emotional support dogs” in a local grocery store. After the attacks, the dog simply stopped working. In case you aren’t aware, dogs for the sight impaired take about 18 months to train and cost over $20K.
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I’d guess this is soooooo rare, frankly I’ve seen more small children causing issues than animals.
 
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Tantalum said:
It's one thing if you have an actually trained service animal, like a seeing eye guide dog, etc. But people who come on the plane with an "emotional support" cat, or something to that effect, it's ridiculous. And this is coming from a dog owner
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My wife had a service dog. It took sooooo much work to train him. he helped her with balance, alerted me if she fell elsewhere in the house, helped her up after a fall, retrieved things for her. We had to retire him due to arthritis in his hips and eventually had to put him down because he lost the ability to walk. We now have a pet, I don't think either of us have the energy to turn another animal into a working animal. Luckily we've moved to a single level home with a step-in shower and made other changes so that his services aren't as crucial to her daily activities.

I think it's pretty easy to spot a properly trained dog. It's all about how they handle distractions and interference from other humans and animals. My wife's old dog, you could tell him to lay on the floor in the finest steakhouse and leave him there for hours, he wouldn't move until you came back and told him "up", unless someone was about to step on him. He would refuse treats from strangers and not even acknowledge them unless THEY touched him or otherwise invaded his space. It took probably 30% of his life to get him like that, and you can never take a break, have to always give those commands every day to keep them sharp.

If you're animal can control themselves around distractions and interference, take them wherever you want, I say, whether you have a disability or not.

Edit: not to say we would ever leave him in a restaurant like that, but you could have.
 
And a service dog complies with a first command. Dogs can hear somewhere between 40 and 400 times better than humans, depending on which expert you choose to believe. The dog heard your command, if it didn't comply then it isn't trained to the level it should be. Never shout at your dog, train him in a volume below a normal speaking voice, they will hear you in the noisiest situation if they are trained to do so.
 
Shawn said:
I still don't why we can't just create a verifiable training certification for necessary ESA and Service Animal.
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As usual, it's not the animal that needs training, it's the human.

According to statute you may not anyone about their need for a support animal. So even if there are proper papers for the animal, there is no way of proving the person needs assistance without impending on their privacy rights.

[This from a guy accustomed to dolling out the fees for my Pomeranian to travel with him. I get free tickets and she costs $125 each way]
 
Ravioli said:
According to statute you may not anyone about their need for a support animal. So even if there are proper papers for the animal, there is no way of proving the person needs assistance without impending on their privacy rights.
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That is ridiculous. If someone asks for special treatment, they ought to be able to prove why. They don't need to put the person's condition on the certifying papers, just that the animal is certified. In any case I thought you sometimes needed to provide proof that you need priority treatment. For example, if you get questioned about why you are parking in a handicapped space with a handicapped placard, you need to show the documentation that came with the placard, and also show ID to prove that you are that person.
 
Lol, lots of VIP charters let pets on no problem, it’s a non event.

The issue is when you are at a race to the bottom, as most airlines are, you tend to scoop lots of your customers up from the bottom too.

And again, they don’t care if you bring your pets on, they just want to upcharge you for it.
 
James331 said:
Lol, lots of VIP charters let pets on no problem, it’s a non event.
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Yes, we took pets all the time. But the people on the airplane were all in one party, so if someone objected, they could tell the person who brought the pet. That is not the situation on an airline.

James331 said:
And again, they don’t care if you bring your pets on, they just want to upcharge you for it.
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If a pet is larger than will fit in a carrier under the seat, they won't let it in the cabin, even with an upcharge. Many people don't want their pets traveling in baggage.
 
Everskyward said:
That is ridiculous.
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Please note the date. I agree 100% with Everskyward that it is ridiculous. Even ludicrous.

But... it's the law. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) makes those claiming to be in the protected class unquestionable.
 
Ravioli said:
Please note the date. I agree 100% with Everskyward that it is ridiculous. Even ludicrous.

But... it's the law. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) makes those claiming to be in the protected class unquestionable.
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Ha! But how is this different than proving your need for a handicapped parking placard? That is my question.
 
Everskyward said:
If a pet is larger than will fit in a carrier under the seat, they won't let it in the cabin, even with an upcharge.
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This true. Which messes us up with Jack, our 65# Golden Retriever. He stays behind because he can't be a cabin pet.

Everskyward said:
IMany people don't want their pets traveling in baggage.
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The commercial rules allow some pets in cargo depending on time of year (not too hot, not too cold). I am CERTAINLY among the NEVER put a pet in baggage crowd. I love animals too much.
 
Everskyward said:
Ha! But how is this different than proving your need for a handicapped parking placard? That is my question.
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Now we need a LEO. @JCranford might help. They can validate that the Parking tag goes with the car and/or person, but I don't believe they are allowed to question the sticker holder's need for it.
 
I see abuse of this crap all the time and sure hope this gets passed. My favorite was the guy who got off the plane with two, yes two pitbulls that he could barely control. I'm certain he couldn't go on without his dogs... :rolleyes: I have nothing wrong with service animals, but these emotional support animals have gotten out of hand and many get an online "certification" just so they can travel with their pet w/o added expenses.

*note I have nothing against pitbulls, it's just what he happened to have.
 
Ravioli said:
Now we need a LEO. @JCranford might help. They can validate that the Parking tag goes with the car and/or person, but I don't believe they are allowed to question the sticker holder's need for it.
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When my wife got her's, I believe you have to take the paperwork from the DMV to a doctor to get one.

My wife got a letter about her dog from her doc to carry, but I don't think she ever had to produce it. Only place that ever gave her a problem was one hotel, she just went across the street to another hotel instead of spend money where she was not welcomed.
 
Ravioli said:
Now we need a LEO. @JCranford might help. They can validate that the Parking tag goes with the car and/or person, but I don't believe they are allowed to question the sticker holder's need for it.
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I would think that the fact that they have a placard proves that they need it. In the two states I'm familiar with, the person needs to get a their doctor to fill out an application that they take to the DMV. Not sure why service animals couldn't be handled in the same way.
 
Everskyward said:
In the two states I'm familiar with, the person needs to get a their doctor to fill out an application that they take to the DMV.
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Those states being CO and CA, IIRC. Where pot used to require a "recommendation" from a Doctor to be medically needed. How hard do you think it would be to get a Doctor's note for prime parking?

[And I've known people who kept renewing the parking stickers long after the need, even after the person it was issued for had passed away. That guy would say, let's take Katie's car, she's got "the coupon"]
 
Ravioli said:
Those states being CO and CA, IIRC. Where pot used to require a "recommendation" from a Doctor to be medically needed. How hard do you think it would be to get a Doctor's note for prime parking?

[And I've known people who kept renewing the parking stickers long after the need, even after the person it was issued for had passed away]
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Of course there is room for abuse. On the other hand, the parking placard stopped coming automatically, once my mother passed. They must be connected to the SS death database. I know people think this kind of fraud is rampant, but I was told by the funeral home that any mortuary, etc. is required to report the death to the government. In fact, they are the ones who notify Social Security.
 
Ravioli said:
But... it's the law. The American Disabilities Act (ADA) makes those claiming to be in the protected class unquestionable.
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I just want to make sure I understand this.

I, as a representative of an airline or any other company, can't ask a person if their animal is a trained support animal.

As I understand as a public entity or a private business I may ask two questions.

  • Is this animal required because of a disability?
  • What work or task has this animal been trained to perform?
But as a private citizen am I not allowed to ask any other questions.?

As I understand it, (and I'll admit that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed) a public entity or a private business may ask an individual with a disability to remove a service animal if the animal is not housebroken or is out of control and the individual is not able to control it. A service animal must have a harness, leash or other tether, unless the handler is unable to use a tether because of a disability or the use of a tether would interfere with the service animal’s ability to safely perform its work or tasks. In these cases, the service animal must be under the handler’s control through voice commands, hand signals, or other effective means. If a service animal is excluded, the individual with a disability must still be offered the opportunity to obtain goods, services, and accommodations without having the service animal on the premises.

A service animal can be excluded from a facility if its presence interferes with legitimate safety requirements of the facility. For example from a surgery or burn unit in a hospital or any other place in which a sterile field is required. (I just learned this today)

Also, as I understand, other species of animals, whether wild or domestic, trained or untrained, are not considered service animals.

The crime deterrent effects of an animal’s presence and the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship are not considered work or tasks under the definition of a service animal.
 
Everskyward said:
Yes, we took pets all the time. But the people on the airplane were all in one party, so if someone objected, they could tell the person who brought the pet. That is not the situation on an airline.

If a pet is larger than will fit in a carrier under the seat, they won't let it in the cabin, even with an upcharge. Many people don't want their pets traveling in baggage.
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Frankly if you paid for that slot they cram you in and you and your [whatever] can fit in it, whatever.

The airlines don’t care about your comfort, if they did they wouldn’t be cramming as many seats as they legally can to the point your licking your knees.



Everskyward said:
I would think that the fact that they have a placard proves that they need it. In the two states I'm familiar with, the person needs to get a their doctor to fill out an application that they take to the DMV. Not sure why service animals couldn't be handled in the same way.
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May your chains rest lightly.

Some people use religion too, perhaps the government could also force them to wear their religions symbol on a arm band.


People who cry to gov to “fix” things are the reason humanity sucks sometimes.
 
Apparently only available at PHL. I stopped into the Popeye's in the Detroit Delta terminal and they didn't have those boxes.
 
Fiveslide said:
If you're animal can control themselves around distractions and interference, take them wherever you want
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But that's just said, most people have adopted a "my dog can do no harm" attitude and have zero traning or any kind of discipline or control over their dog.. so as usual they ruin it for the responsible members of the group
 
ESA= bogus
I went on one of those sites "certifying pets as ESA" and was successful at enrolling a dead cat.
I made it completely clear during the enrollment that the cat was dead. I think I named this fictional cat Chinese Food for their e-interview.
One of the questions during the interview was "How do you benefit from the services of your ESA pet" and my answer was that with the cat being dead, my pet food bills were lower. No problem, they were ready to take my credit card and still send me emails 6 mo later asking if I want to complete the process or enroll another animal.

Someone else reports they enrolled a paperclip as an ESA.
 
https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

GENERAL RULES
Q7. What questions can a covered entity's employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?
A. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.
 
James331 said:
The airlines don’t care about your comfort, if they did they wouldn’t be cramming as many seats as they legally can to the point your licking your knees.
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Sure they do, we've even taken some seats back out to give more space. The real issue is most people are just unwilling to pay the price for comfort they want.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

GENERAL RULES
Q7. What questions can a covered entity's employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?
A. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.
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Of course regulations can be changed, which happens to be the subject of this thread. So I'm not sure why some are so adamant that this particular requirement can't be changed.
 
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