Android turn by turn gps

Morons...I do not care how "gee whiz" the GPS in a phone is...it still does not beat a dedicated device on/in the dash of a vehicle.
 
Guess the price of aviation-themed Garmin units will be going up! :nonod:
 
With Android being an open dev environment, I wouldn't be shocked to see aviation-themed GPS capable apps coming out for Android.
 
With Android being an open dev environment, I wouldn't be shocked to see aviation-themed GPS capable apps coming out for Android.

Nor I.

Open source is the key to success. Apple should have figured that out in the 90s when they almost went under.
 
Morons...I do not care how "gee whiz" the GPS in a phone is...it still does not beat a dedicated device on/in the dash of a vehicle.

Morons? Seriously? How does this device "not beat" a dedicated device?

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Morons? Seriously? How does this device "not beat" a dedicated device?

Cheers,

-Andrew

Easy.....one, it is a PHONE, a primary communications device whose battery will get chewed to pieces trying to get Bob to his meeting where his phone is now dead and unable to send/receive calls or emails (its secondary purpose).

Two.....almost anything "dedicated" has the ability to be better customized for its function, period.

Three.....unless one gets a holder for the phone to set on your dash, you now have an additional distraction in the vehicle as one looks down at ones hand to figure out were one is going. (Voice or not, people have a tendency to LOOK at the GPS)

As the iPhone has proved, some convergence is nice, but the battery drain/short charge life is a real pain when one is trying to do things with their PHONE as a phone if they suck all the juice using the ancillary features. Of course you can follow Apples advise and simply not utilize those features/turn them off, then again why the hell buy a convergence device if you have to do that to conserve battery life?
 
Easy.....one, it is a PHONE, a primary communications device whose battery will get chewed to pieces trying to get Bob to his meeting where his phone is now dead and unable to send/receive calls or emails (its secondary purpose).

Assuming you run it on battery only while attempting to use the navigation function.

Two.....almost anything "dedicated" has the ability to be better customized for its function, period.

I can make a similar QED statement (almost anything "programmable" has the ability to better customized for a variety of functions, period), but I won't.

Systems follow a model that is based on underlying architecture. When the architecture is weak (usually when the idea is first conceieved), your assertion is generally true. Why? Because the underlying architecture needed to support the system is completely consumed by supporting the limited functions of the system. However, as architectures evolve, the amount of architecture dedicated to the limited functions of the system decreases, leaving you with two options: generalize and abstract (make the architecture run more systems), or enhance and evolve (add more features to the system to consume the newfound "extra" architecture).

Convergence is best supported by the former: the underlying architecture (operating system, hardware, memory, supporting networks) have evolved to such a point that I can perform the functions of a standard navigation GPS within the excess processing capacity offered by a telephone, personal computer, or other mobility device. When I present a generalized and abstracted environment to a systems developer, the work they need to do becomes more focused on the system, and less on the architecture. This has the effect of lowering cost or increasing features (sometimes, both). I can do this while leveraging the synergies offered between the multitude of systems running on the architecture: cellular modem, data sharing, data storage, touch screen, text-to-speech synthesis, and so on.

So rather than GRMN investing a boatload to design and implement an architecture that can do all of those things (over the air data update, share data with other components of the system, use a touch screen, say "Turn right, 1 mile"), an application developer who understands the math and logic behind navigation can instead focus on the math and logic of navigation, not why a touch force of .2psi doesn't click the "Next turn" icon on the screen, and the hardware is overheating every time I try and have the software convert text-to-speech.

In closing, when the underlying architectures become so powerful that you can simply port the logic into them, and presto-chango the whole package works, then the need for dedicated devices falls through the floor, and exists only in extreme edge cases (for example, aviation approach-certified moving-map GPS). Convergence renders your assertion false, when it really works (like synergy in M&A transactions), which is what Android + the latest batch of high-horsepower architectures offer.

Three.....unless one gets a holder for the phone to set on your dash, you now have an additional distraction in the vehicle as one looks down at ones hand to figure out were one is going. (Voice or not, people have a tendency to LOOK at the GPS)

From http://www.engadget.com/photos/motorola-droid-car-and-home-docks-hands-on/2401471/ :

2009-10-28droiddocks-4.jpg


As the iPhone has proved, some convergence is nice, but the battery drain/short charge life is a real pain when one is trying to do things with their PHONE as a phone if they suck all the juice using the ancillary features. Of course you can follow Apples advise and simply not utilize those features/turn them off, then again why the hell buy a convergence device if you have to do that to conserve battery life?

Battery life is, indeed, a problem. Battery research is a very hot area right now, with lots of VC, PE, DARPA, and other monies flowing into startups and university research programs. Hell, Evo Morales, the prime minister of Boliva who is a chum of Fidel and Hugo, may be made to look like the greatest leader Boliva has ever seen: Boliva has access to 70% of the worlds lithium (via lithium that is "mixed in" with their famous salt flats, at the surface and "easily" extractable). In translation, there's a lot of really interesting stuff here, and your quibbles about battery are spot on.

But, like any other electronic device, we only rely on battery when we absolutely have to. Ergo, the Motorola Droid can run on vehicle power while in navigation mode (just like your iPhone, or other device, can).

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
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Just another datapoint on my "convergence" argument.

Came across the following during my morning news scan.

James Fallows said:
The truly distinctive aspect of the Nook, my informant goes on to say, is how quickly it went from original concept to marketable product -- must less than half the overall cycle time of Amazon with the Kindle, for both software and hardware. The secret, reportedly, was very close coordination with suppliers in China:

"It's the fastest project I've ever done with this complexity. Our challenge now is to scale up to meet the volumes that we see."

Again, this comes from an interested party, but it's worth bearing in mind as the product hits the market.

Fully converged platforms (actually converged platforms, not ones that advertise being converged but really aren't) offered B&N the chance to strike very quickly, where Amazon had invested years making the product work. The best part: their strike wasn't a response (e.g. lagging Amazon), but included compelling new features that offer a challenge to to the existing Amazon product. B&N turned on a relative dime, if you ask me.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Easy.....one, it is a PHONE, a primary communications device whose battery will get chewed to pieces trying to get Bob to his meeting where his phone is now dead and unable to send/receive calls or emails (its secondary purpose).

Mobile phones haven't been PHONES for at least 3 years now, and thinking otherwise gives me a key into the generation you belong to. In reality, our PDAs and Phones have merged, our Calendar and Phones have merged, our paper maps and Phones have merged (I use Google Maps on my Android on a daily basis).

So I'm not surprised to see GPS and phone merge. And guess what? The Android Turn by Turn seems to have more functionality than most stand alone GPSes (probably because your quip about dedicated devices doing it better is 100% false, and hasn't been correct since the days of the VCR).

Three.....unless one gets a holder for the phone to set on your dash, you now have an additional distraction in the vehicle as one looks down at ones hand to figure out were one is going. (Voice or not, people have a tendency to LOOK at the GPS)

Well, now I know you're just trolling, because as the video showed, there is a holder for the phone. If you honestly cared to debate this on an even level, you'd have watched the video before forming opinion. I apologize for responding.

As the iPhone has proved, some convergence is nice, but the battery drain/short charge life is a real pain when one is trying to do things with their PHONE as a phone if they suck all the juice using the ancillary features. Of course you can follow Apples advise and simply not utilize those features/turn them off, then again why the hell buy a convergence device if you have to do that to conserve battery life?

Well, there's a funny new thing that the kids use called a car charger. Now, since most of these Android devices use Mini-USB to charge, its even easier and cheaper than before to use a car charger....and it actually powers the phone while its plugged in too.

Where have I seen that before?

Oh yeah, on my freaking Tom Tom. Its the exact same charger. I use it as a phone charger.
 
Also amusing to use the Apple iPhone and its legendary battery problems as an example. Other manufacturers are not obliged to make the same mistake (or compromise, if you like), so battery life need not be a deal-breaker. Higher-capacity battery options, and interchageable batteries, are ideas which an work nicely.
 
Google wins again. I have a new Garmin dedicated driving GPS and the google product appears to be better. BTW The Garmin internal batteries don't last very long unless it is plugged in so what is the difference? Besides the biggest loss of car windows these days are smash and grabs looking for portable GPS units once everyone switches to smart phones that people take with them the world will once again be safe for car windows.
 
I can make a similar QED statement (almost anything "programmable" has the ability to better customized for a variety of functions, period), but I won't.

Mobile phones haven't been PHONES for at least 3 years now, and thinking otherwise gives me a key into the generation you belong to. In reality, our PDAs and Phones have merged, our Calendar and Phones have merged, our paper maps and Phones have merged (I use Google Maps on my Android on a daily basis).

When will my cell phone camera work as well as my Canon DSLR?

Both sides of this discussion are rubbish because some things converge well....others don't.

In my kitchen are a spice grinder, food processor, and a blender. One of these could do the same as the others...it doesn't do it as well or as conveniently.
 
When will my cell phone camera work as well as my Canon DSLR?

Until we solve some very interesting optics problems, it won't.

But it may work as well as a point and shoot.

Both sides of this discussion are rubbish because some things converge well....others don't.


I'm going to take umbrage with your assertion that my "side" of the argument is rubbish.

Convergence is a matter of systems / architecture interaction. If you can increase the power of the architecture to such a point that you can abstract it away from the dedicated system/architecture, then you have a converging product that may be superior to replacements.

Your argument about the spice grinder, food processor, and blender is a cogent one. The system is the architecture in those cases. And, in my argument stated above, you will still have edge cases where the architecture/system interaction is so specific, that you can't/are unable to converge. Additionally, the architecture supporting the system may be so nascent that it is unable to abstracted at this time. 10 years ago, we didn't have 1GHz low-power processors that could fit in a mobile form factor, so different architectures were used to implement the needed features. When we could cram a lot of horsepower (at a similar price point) into the architecture, the possibility of convergence came into play.

My argument rests on the concept of a cycle, or continuum, of architecture/system relationships. At the far left edge, the architecture and the system are indistinguishable, except for people buried deep in the weeds. At the far right hand side, the architecture and the system are distinct, and interact through abstract, relational interfaces to each other. Abstraction (and relational interfaces) generally "cost" more, because you have to take into account a larger variety of inputs and outputs to accomplish the same task. When the architecture can handle the vagaries of systems with aplomb, you open the flood gates for convergence.

The factor that you must consider, though, is synergy: most systems professionals have built their careers on increasingly complex "convergence" models that offer little synergy. The systems converge, and are more abstract, but offer little opportunity for synergy between dissimilar systems, leading systems developers to still build "logic within logic". Until your architecture considers and makes available those synergies, I'd argue that your platform is not converged, but merely "abstracted and convergence ready". The platform in question here (Android/Moto Droid/Google Navigation) is a fully converged offering, because the systems and architecture are abstracted, and the systems can benefit from each other (synergies), creating meta-systems -- devices that are greater than the sum of their parts.

In my kitchen are a spice grinder, food processor, and a blender. One of these could do the same as the others...it doesn't do it as well or as conveniently.

But I have a KitchenAid mixer: which replaced my meat grinder, my pasta machine, my hand mixer and my pre-existing stand mixer. That's a converged device, and one that is quite successful (at the cost of dedicated meat grinder and pasta machine sales).

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Andrew....excellent information. However I notice you talk about underlying architecture, I am talking (and should have clarified) the human/computer interface design.

Sorry...call me "old" if you wish Nick, but my phone is a COMMUNICATIONS device and while I admit it does "converge" some things (phone,.mail, calendar) I do not need a phone that gives me bar recipes, or plays games, or anything else IF that "extra" requires me to have to have my phone plugged in whenever I can just to keep its battery up-to-date. Not too mention...there is still a lot of places that a dedicated GPS device is better, such as integrated with the car (ala my wife's BMW) for trip information/analysis, on a boat (sorry but BB, or iPhone if I had one is not going to be used topside in a marine environment), and in an aircraft. :)

Sorry but this race to convergence seems to be a drive to cram the most "stuff" on a device without thinking about other items (battery life being one of them).
 
My question on this feature is how much of it relies on the network connection and how much is internal relying on GPS only.
 
Fully converged platforms (actually converged platforms, not ones that advertise being converged but really aren't) offered B&N the chance to strike very quickly, where Amazon had invested years making the product work. The best part: their strike wasn't a response (e.g. lagging Amazon), but included compelling new features that offer a challenge to to the existing Amazon product. B&N turned on a relative dime, if you ask me.

Cheers,

-Andrew

Sometimes it is better to me 2nd mover. :)

Oh, and PS, look how long it took Garmin to get their Nuviphone out.
 
Andrew- you said, in a lot of words, that some things can converge and others can't. Why, then, are you taking umbrage?

With your comments about the camera, there are some "point & shoots available" that no cell phone camera will touch unless we discover very novel materials or the cell phone form factor becomes unusable for one of its primary purposes.

A converged instrument often involves compromise. Sometimes these compromises don't affect the desired purpose, sometimes they do slightly, and other times the compromise is significant. It really depends on the needs of the user and the capabilities of the system.

There were two extremes argued here- you are taking the middle and claiming one end.
 
Google said yesterday that they'll be bringing the same turn by turn to the iPhone... As long as Apple lets them (which they should, they got rid of the TbT restriction when 3.0 came out and TomTom has an app for the iPhone.)

I was wondering about the NuviFone. What a piece of junk. Why did I buy Garmin stock again? Hmmm.
 
I was wondering about the NuviFone. What a piece of junk. Why did I buy Garmin stock again? Hmmm.

Because they sell overpriced crap that Pilots continually think is better than the competition and still buy.

Its a smart move, Kent. As long as pilots pay Garmin's "tax" they'll continue to prosper.
 
Andrew- you said, in a lot of words, that some things can converge and others can't. Why, then, are you taking umbrage?

Firstly, I interpreted your statement as "Tom/Andrew", not "standalone versus convergence". With that context, I retract my umbrage :rofl:

With your comments about the camera, there are some "point & shoots available" that no cell phone camera will touch unless we discover very novel materials or the cell phone form factor becomes unusable for one of its primary purposes.

Currently, you are correct -- you can't touch the 12mp Canon P+S we have -- but that doesn't mean it won't happen. On the other hand, the camera on my Android out-resolves my MIL's Samung POS P+S, and it is rated at 2 less MP. YMMV.

A converged instrument often involves compromise. Sometimes these compromises don't affect the desired purpose, sometimes they do slightly, and other times the compromise is significant. It really depends on the needs of the user and the capabilities of the system.

True convergence happens without compromise. Most of what we see, as "converged" today, is with many compromises. I am very keen to kick the tires on Google Navigation (what started this thread), and I am willing to argue that "this is not the compromise you were looking for", but instead a milestone in platforms that do away with the compromises we are used to thinking of.

There were two extremes argued here- you are taking the middle and claiming one end.

No need to reiterate myself -- I misunderstood your statement above; I apologize for the confusion.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
A camera phone is not as good as a dedicated camera, but it's a cheap substitute that I always have with me.

A smart phone is not as good as a dedicated video game box, but it's a cheap substitute that I always have with me.

A smart phone is not as good as a desktop computer for productivity and internet access, but it's a cheap substitute that I always have with me.

Can somebody explain to me why the comparison of a smart phone GPS to a dedicated GPS requires such high-level discussions of architecture and philosophy? Isn't the answer, oh, I dunno, something like "a smart phone is not as good as a dedicated GPS, but it's a cheap substitute that I always have with me"?
-harry
 
Andrew....excellent information. However I notice you talk about underlying architecture, I am talking (and should have clarified) the human/computer interface design.

"Human factors" is the noose by which many systems folks will hang. I'd be interested to understand how you might struggle with a Droid like interface, versus dedicated interfaces.

Sorry...call me "old" if you wish Nick, but my phone is a COMMUNICATIONS device and while I admit it does "converge" some things (phone,.mail, calendar) I do not need a phone that gives me bar recipes, or plays games, or anything else IF that "extra" requires me to have to have my phone plugged in whenever I can just to keep its battery up-to-date. Not too mention...there is still a lot of places that a dedicated GPS device is better, such as integrated with the car (ala my wife's BMW) for trip information/analysis, on a boat (sorry but BB, or iPhone if I had one is not going to be used topside in a marine environment), and in an aircraft. :)

Sorry but this race to convergence seems to be a drive to cram the most "stuff" on a device without thinking about other items (battery life being one of them).

Your battery life comments are well placed. But, IMNSHO, it has less to do with the processors and more to do with 3G radios. Many 3G radio implementations (Scott, Ghery... I'm peeing in your end of the pool now. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong) are incredibly wasteful with battery power. One of the big difficulties in bringing the BlackBerry Bold to market was RIM "solving" their 3G conundrum -- RIM devices are renowned for their miserly battery use, yet the Bold was killing batteries left and right.

I am closely watching a few companies who may stand to really change battery technology. Like I said in my prior post, this is one of, if not the hottest area of high-tech venture-level investment right now.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
A camera phone is not as good as a dedicated camera, but it's a cheap substitute that I always have with me.

A smart phone is not as good as a dedicated video game box, but it's a cheap substitute that I always have with me.

A smart phone is not as good as a desktop computer for productivity and internet access, but it's a cheap substitute that I always have with me.

Can somebody explain to me why the comparison of a smart phone GPS to a dedicated GPS requires such high-level discussions of architecture and philosophy? Isn't the answer, oh, I dunno, something like "a smart phone is not as good as a dedicated GPS, but it's a cheap substitute that I always have with me"?
-harry

Because, IMNSHO, the Google Navigation app could be better than your dedicated GPS.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Firstly, I interpreted your statement as "Tom/Andrew", not "standalone versus convergence". With that context, I retract my umbrage :rofl:



Currently, you are correct -- you can't touch the 12mp Canon P+S we have -- but that doesn't mean it won't happen. On the other hand, the camera on my Android out-resolves my MIL's Samung POS P+S, and it is rated at 2 less MP. YMMV.


No need to reiterate myself -- I misunderstood your statement above; I apologize for the confusion.

Cheers,

-Andrew

No problems.

As for the camera- I think we'll agree to disagree. More megapixels without a good lens are useless- there is no increase in resolution that we can see, but we'll see better how poor the lense is. There's only so much that can be done computationally to correct for a lens. Really good lenses are already pretty much diffraction limited, and the best materials around now don't change the dimensions of the optics much so the cell phone camera will need get a bit larger to give better images.
 
Because they sell overpriced crap that Pilots continually think is better than the competition and still buy.

Overpriced, yeah maybe. Crap, no. Not for aviation (you said "Pilots"). While Garmin aviation stuff is quite expensive, it does work VERY well.

Its a smart move, Kent. As long as pilots pay Garmin's "tax" they'll continue to prosper.

Problem is, the avionics stuff is pretty small potatoes compared to the consumer automotive stuff like the Nuvis when it comes to financial results of the company. So, as long as Garmin keeps getting beat up by TomTom, Google, et al their stock is gonna suffer. And they don't always manage other things well, either - They had a big mess a couple of years ago when they had WAY too much inventory. That's a bad mistake to make.
 
Convergence is a matter of systems / architecture interaction. If you can increase the power of the architecture to such a point that you can abstract it away from the dedicated system/architecture, then you have a converging product that may be superior to replacements.

All that assumes that 1) the converged features work well together as a continuium, 2) that there is sufficient demand for the features (as opposed to adding overpriced clap-trap to run the price up and extract more from the consumer pocketbook) and 3) that the size/weight requirements can be achieved (which also goes to consumer demand, but also to the camera optics issue).

Andrew....excellent information. However I notice you talk about underlying architecture, I am talking (and should have clarified) the human/computer interface design.
....................
Sorry but this race to convergence seems to be a drive to cram the most "stuff" on a device without thinking about other items (battery life being one of them).

It's really two factors: cramming more stuff in as a means to encourage more consumption and more revenue, and 2 meeting or not meeting the demand side.

Our company, for example, will never "consume" mobile devices that have a camera. Our facilities prohibit camera/camera phones on-site, even stuff used by employees (and some of the classified facilities prohibit all electronics or two-way electronics - pagers are used in some places).

I also note that Jitterbug is doing pretty well with their cellphones for "seniors".

Or, combining an email terminal in a car dashboard will probably be a poor convergance because of the risks.... yet two-way communication with a car (ala On-Star) will be desirable from the manufacturer side because it provides a services upsell.

So, there will be a market for unconverged devices.

OTOH, as we head down the road to more social media interactions, there will be demand for better converged devices to satisfy the consumer wants.

As you note, there are some physical limitations, but I see a market for both converged and non-converged stuff.
 
As you note, there are some physical limitations, but I see a market for both converged and non-converged stuff.

Ah -- the sound of reason.

Bill, you're no fun. There you go, ruining a good argument. ;)

And, of course, you are right on. My iPhone does a LOT of stuff, and does it very well. However, it doesn't take good enough pictures to be a primary camera, even as a P&S. However, I'd rather get an OK picture on the iPhone that I have with me than no picture on the "real" camera that's at home or wherever. So, there's even a market for both converged and non-converged among the very same customers. :yes:
 
Bill, you're no fun. There you go, ruining a good argument. ;)

And, of course, you are right on. My iPhone does a LOT of stuff, and does it very well. However, it doesn't take good enough pictures to be a primary camera, even as a P&S. However, I'd rather get an OK picture on the iPhone that I have with me than no picture on the "real" camera that's at home or wherever. So, there's even a market for both converged and non-converged among the very same customers. :yes:

I've got a cellphone with a camera - I don't (and won't) ever use the camera (low quality compared to P&S, the lens gets scratched, and high carrier fees to extract the picture from the camera). I despise having to pay for a feature I'll never use (upsell, upsell, upsell). Yeah, I know the true cost is pennies, but it's the principal.

In the meantime, the carriers are doing their best to unbundle/unconverge the fees (along with airlines, car companies, and pretty much everyone else).
 
I've got a cellphone with a camera - I don't (and won't) ever use the camera (low quality compared to P&S, the lens gets scratched, and high carrier fees to extract the picture from the camera). I despise having to pay for a feature I'll never use (upsell, upsell, upsell). Yeah, I know the true cost is pennies, but it's the principal.

You use Verizon, don't you? :nono:

That's exactly why I switched to AT&T nearly 4 years ago after being with Verizon (and PrimeCo before it) for 10 years. They'd nickel and dime you to death, and disable neat features on the phone if they couldn't find a way to charge for them. I suspect that's why Apple and Verizon couldn't come to an agreement on the iPhone and why AT&T ended up with it.
 
You use Verizon, don't you? :nono:

That's exactly why I switched to AT&T nearly 4 years ago after being with Verizon (and PrimeCo before it) for 10 years. They'd nickel and dime you to death, and disable neat features on the phone if they couldn't find a way to charge for them. I suspect that's why Apple and Verizon couldn't come to an agreement on the iPhone and why AT&T ended up with it.

I have one on each service.

Don't ask.

OK, I'll tell anyway:

The Verzon phone is older. I keep it for two reasons: 1) because a few diehards still call me on it (elderly) and 2) because it still has analog roll-over that works in some places that digital doesn't (like the road up to some rural property I have). The account is configured to roll calls over to the TMo phone.

The ATT phone is company supplied locked-down blackberry with phone. Can't access or use it with personal email. Can't take it out of the country (company fear of espionage or seizure by Customs officials) without special dispensation.

The TMo Blackberry phone is the one I use for most personal stuff. TMo coverage is "OK" in most places, but more importantly it has the best BB pricing, especially for international use. TMo probably has the best international coverage of all the carriers.

Sprint: I have an aircard on Sprint. VZ's TOS was overly restrictive and VZ had a monthly cap (which Sprint didn't have when I got the card). I think I'm grandfathered in on the unlimited use, but frankly I don't usually hit that much a month. There's no reason to move to VZ now (and tether a BB to the EvDO service) as the monthly rate is the same on either one - while VZ still has a more restrictive TOS. IOW, I wouldn't save anything. I'd probably dump it if they gave me a company aircard (which they won't - I tried).

So there you have it. I pay more for wireless service than I do for satellite TV.
 
My question on this feature is how much of it relies on the network connection and how much is internal relying on GPS only.
I found the answer to this:

zdnet said:
Q. Will the GPS be functional if I don’t buy the Verizon data plan?
The GPS chip would be functional; in other words the phone would know your longitude and latitude. However that wouldn’t do you much good because Google Maps will not be able to function if you don’t have any kind of internet connection.
A more common scenario is that you have a connection but it’s unreliable and cuts in and out. In that case, Google Maps Navigation still work for the most part. The program will continue to give you directions (”turn right in 300 feet”, etc.) because some pre-fetched map data for your route is downloaded and stored locally in the background. However your underlying map tiles may not load and you won’t receive a reroute if you deviate from the original planned route. Depending on how bad your connection is, you may not notice the difference.
 
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