Ancient checkride maneuvers

Kritchlow

Kritchlow

Final Approach
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Kritchlow
lots of new IR pilots here, and certainly happy to see that. Even if you never fly IFR, it makes you a better pilot in many levels.

Now, I'm older. I will give you the nuts and bolts of my IR ride back around 1986.

-- Various maneuvers under hood (don't remember exactly which)

-- VOR approach to a missed

-- NDB approach to a circle

-- RNAV (old- typed in freq, radial, DME. That "moved" the VOR that distance along that radial).

-- DME arc to an ILS

That was many moons ago.

How about you?
 
ILS, VOR, LOC-BC on instrument ride. Did NDB on my CFI-I ride. It's been so long I don't recall much more about either. Didn't have DME for initial, but did for I-I.
 
LDJones said:
ILS, VOR, LOC-BC on instrument ride. Did NDB on my CFI-I ride. It's been so long I don't recall much more about either. Didn't have DME for initial, but did for I-I.
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Glad to see another old timer ride that included an NDB.
 
Lets see..... ILS to the MDA missed and then hold, VOR to the timed missed approach, VOR with the circle to land, then a timed NDB approach, and last but not least, localizer with a DME for a missed approach, followed by a VFR approach to land. And I so bounced the landing.. My thought at the time was I had just failed an IFR check ride because of my terrible VFR landing.
 
Well, not my instrument ride, which was pretty normal for the 1970's including an NDB to the MAP on the clock (and darned if the runway wasn't right there when he let me raise the hood - will wonders never cease)
But for my initial PP check ride - let's see as I remember (been a while)
A C-120 with a coffee grinder radio, whiskey compass, needle & ball, my Timex $4.95 watch
Two and a half hour oral
Started XC, got to first check point (identified) then a diversion to another airport (broken off at first check point on the chart)
Steep turns both ways
Turn around a point
Slow flight
Two turn spin - I would have done ten turns but he said he always got motion sick after two
Hood on, fly straight and level for two minutes (seemed like forever) a 180 degree turn then back again (remember this is needle & ball, whiskey compass with my watch for timing)
He pulled the throttle, I lifted the hood, identified a farmers field and set up for a power off landing
At two hundred feet he said he needed a cigarette and some coffee, "your airplane" and he proceeded to light up (yes, airplanes had ashtrays in those days) as we flew back to the airport.
The good old days, eh.
 
Dr. O said:
At two hundred feet he said he needed a cigarette and some coffee, "your airplane" and he proceeded to light up (yes, airplanes had ashtrays in those days) as we flew back to the airport.
The good old days, eh.
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Don't remind me...
My primary flight instructor, a crusty old seaman (long departed), was a chain smoker. Our flights were definitely not fun in the cramped C-150, with him lighting up and puffing continuously, and me an avid non-smoker who normally chokes on a whiff of smoke just trying to survive. No wonder I feel naturaI flying IFR: my entire PPL training was one long IMC session, a la Ernie Gann's Fate is the Hunter infamous match-lighting "training".
 
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Other than taking ADF/NDBs out of the equation, checkrides don't seem to have changed that much. Here' s my ride from 2 years ago:

-- unusual attitudes then a hold
-- VOR-A, AP coupled to a missed
-- VOR-A, hand flown, partial panel to a circle to land
-- GPS to LPV minimums, initially coupled but AP failed just prior to FAF
 
I'm too ancient to remember what I did on my IR ride. I'm sure it didn't include any GPS, RNAV, or moving maps, though.
 
The only particular thing I remember from the check ride was an ILS approach that the controller hung me high on and I intercepted the glideslope from above. What I trained on was VOR and ADF. GPS hadn't been invented yet. RNAV was still pretty "Gucci" stuff that only the big boys had and the planes I flew did not have DME. Probably the funnest thing I did was holding at an intersection defined by 2 NDB's with only one ADF in the plane.
 
Did all my certificates/ratings mid 70s, so the usual instrument stuff, ILS, LOC BC, couple VORs (screwed the first up), NDB, holding etc. Now when I did my ME I was taxing in and as I began to make a 180* turn to park the DPE cut the outboard engine on me (making it harder to turn). Made the turn ok. Found out later that was his signal to my CFI that I had passed. Guy was a character.
 
I remember my checkride being a lot easier than training, but I had a good instructor who really pushed me. Hey, if I could nail partial-panel, single nav-com intersection holds with plenty of wind and no moving map, everything else was a cakewalk. Lots of NDB approaches too. This was 15 years ago.

Are folks still doing "pattern A" and "pattern B" for attitude instrument training?
 
Kritchlow said:
lots of new IR pilots here, and certainly happy to see that. Even if you never fly IFR, it makes you a better pilot in many levels.

Now, I'm older. I will give you the nuts and bolts of my IR ride back around 1986.

-- Various maneuvers under hood (don't remember exactly which)

-- VOR approach to a missed

-- NDB approach to a circle

-- RNAV (old- typed in freq, radial, DME. That "moved" the VOR that distance along that radial).

-- DME arc to an ILS

That was many moons ago.

How about you?
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Not that different. No NDB 'cause they are all gone. I did have to do a custom hold. Maneuvers were mainly unusual attitude recovery. The RNAV was an LNAV. The ILS was "best forward speed" because of a DC10 in trail.
 
WTF is a 'custom' hold? :confused:

And there are still NDB approaches around. One at Montezuma GA for example..
 
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I had to take my instrument rating ride twice and passed both times. I worked at an FBO at KEMT. I called the Ontario GADO to schedule my check ride. I got the boss who said, "Have your boss give you the check ride. He is a DPE." So, I took the ride with my boss and passed. A couple days later the technical guru at the GADO called in panic and informed us that my boss was not an authorized instrument DPE. Would I please come to KONT and take the ride with him. So, I did and I passed again.

This was in 1958. In addition to ILS and VOR we had to fly one L/F Range approach. How's that for ancient?! I was also a Link Trainer Operator (LTO) at the time. So, one of the required maneuvers that had to be signed off in an instrument student's log book was several L/F Range orientations. Those orientations were too time consuming to be done in an airplane.

No one but the airlines had DME in those days. No transponders, either.:D
 
Tarheelpilot said:
So just my opinion but unless the examiner observed you from the ground for your flight test I don't think you're ancient.
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That must have been quite an accomplishment with an instrument rating flight test exam. :happydance:
 
mscard88 said:
WTF is a 'custom' hold? :confused:
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A detailed hold clearance not charted on enroute charts or approach plates. He does that so you can't use the GPS (outside of OBS mode) to do it for you. GTN650s will plot hold entries as part of an approach, but not otherwise.

mscard88 said:
And there are still NDB approaches around. One at Montezuma GA for example..
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So, if you fly in Georgia, you might get one. If you fly in central California (or pretty much anywhere else outside Alaska), you won't.
 
MAKG1 said:
A detailed hold clearance not charted on enroute charts or approach plates. He does that so you can't use the GPS (outside of OBS mode) to do it for you. GTN650s will plot hold entries as part of an approach, but not otherwise.
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AFAIK, modern version GTN 6xx/7xx can plot holds with entries anywhere you want, pretty much.
 
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Dr. O said:
...At two hundred feet he said he needed a cigarette and some coffee, "your airplane" and he proceeded to light up (yes, airplanes had ashtrays in those days) as we flew back to the airport.
The good old days, eh.
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Mine still does.

And it isn't IFR but will be soon.
 
My IR checkride had three parts. Oral, Sim, and Flight. The sim, without a doubt, was the most difficult. Frozen pitot tube, AHRS failures, potential icing conditions, etc. And all in a 172 G1000.
-DME arc to ILS
-Non-precision VOR to circle
-Non-precision VOR with procedure turn and an AHRS failure. The instrument scan in a 172 G1000 with an AHRS failure is a nightmare.

The flight was a piece of cake.
- RNAV approach with procedure turn to a full stop.

I may have missed some parts but that was about it. I still have nightmares.
 
MAKG1 said:
GTN650s will plot hold entries as part of an approach, but not otherwise.
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That's no longer true. The latest GTN system software update added the ability to create a hold at any nav fix or user defined waypoint in the database to include both time or distance leg types and an EFC alarm.
 
No NDB approach on my ride a few years ago because the plane didn't have an ADF! My instrument ride was pretty straight forward. Did everything except for a DME because we don't really have any on Long Island. I practiced them with my CFI though. Airline training I did a DME arc to a LOC BC, LOC BC, Lots of ILSs, VOR, LOC, and RNAV.
 
I am waiting for VOR and ILS to go away once the VOR stations are decommissioned and replaced by GPS approaches.
 
jordane93 said:
No NDB approach on my ride a few years ago because the plane didn't have an ADF! My instrument ride was pretty straight forward. Did everything except for a DME because we don't really have any on Long Island. I practiced them with my CFI though. Airline training I did a DME arc to a LOC BC, LOC BC, Lots of ILSs, VOR, LOC, and RNAV.
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It's pretty simple to simulate a DME arc while VFR.
 
Mine was:

1. Takeoff, fly the ODP (which included a hold). Fly the LOC approach back. Go missed. On the miss go partial panel and do unusual attitudes, vor intercepts, vectors. Continue into an RNAV approach partial panel, go missed (panel magically fixed), go fly the ILS, circle to land, park, shake hands with the examiner.
 
aterpster said:
That must have been quite an accomplishment with an instrument rating flight test exam. :happydance:
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I'm not sure but I don't think there was an instrument rating when flight tests were observed from the ground. There have been a few times when I wanted to push the examiner out so they could watch watch from the ground.
 
MAKG1 said:
So, if you fly in Georgia, you might get one. If you fly in central California (or pretty much anywhere else outside Alaska), you won't.
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We have one in Southern California: KEMT NDB or GPS-C.
 
Blueangel said:
I am waiting for VOR and ILS to go away once the VOR stations are decommissioned and replaced by GPS approaches.
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They are thinning out the number of VORs but there are no plans to get rid of them entirely anytime soon. They are keeping enough so the IFR system can still work without GPS.

GPS isn't perfect and can (and does) sometimes fail (or in the case of the west coast earlier this summer the military sets off one of their Oceans 11 style Interference devices and wipes out GPS).

ILS is also staying put. The best GPS approach (LPV) can still only match the highest usual mins on a standard ILS (Cat-1). Lower still requires ground-based equipment and will for some time.
 
Nobody's mentioned the fact that we used to actually have to time our holds...after the first lap, tell the examiner how long you were going to fly outbound on the next lap to make your inbound work out to a minute. And how you were going to change your WCA so you came out closer to the desired inbound course. ;)
 
MAKG1 said:
So, if you fly in Georgia, you might get one. If you fly in central California (or pretty much anywhere else outside Alaska), you won't.
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There are at least five in VA.
 
My checkride consisted of taking off, unusual attitudes, vectors for an ILS with published missed and hold, vectors for a LOC BC to a missed with a non-standard hold, and a full procedure VOR approach with partial panel and a circle to land. Although I have an ADF and we have at least one NDB approach nearby I didn't have to do one on my instrument checkride.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned steep turns yet. I know I did them in training and I think I may have done them on the checkride too but can't remember for sure.
 
MAKG1 said:
So, if you fly in Georgia, you might get one. If you fly in central California (or pretty much anywhere else outside Alaska), you won't.
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There are a number of them in Minnesota yet too, although they're dwindling. At some of the smaller airports the AWOS is broadcast over the NDB too, so it would be beneficial to retain the ADF even if you don't want to do an NDB approach.
 
Doolittle did my checkride right after Sperry trained me on his brand new gyrostabilizer.
The test was in actual; clouds were around 300' with blowing snow. They had just installed the first of the new Adcock LF ranges so we weren't just follow the river on this one, had to do the newfangled let-down 'on the beam', timing from the cone of silence to the missed, (there were no Z markers yet). All the altitudes and times were in a little black book he had.
Finally, he said look up, and there were the rows of flare pots - so I knew I passed! Anyway, it was such a treat when they came out with NDB approaches a few years later, imagine: a needle that pointed right to the station!
 
Compared to y'all mine was dirt simple.
ILS to a missed, VOR to a missed and a GPS partial panel. Done..
 
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