Analysis paralysis when looking for a plane to buy

charheep

charheep

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charheep
Is it just me?

TL:DR- Looking to buy a plane. Cant make up my dumb mind.

Mission-
Local flights under 100nm or sightseeing- about 70% of the time. Usually 2-3 people
Trips over 300nm the other times, usually 2 people. Or 2 adults and a child.
So, 3 people and luggage, or 4 people useful load.
Would love to do angel flights and EAA intro flights.

Had a Bo, and the maintenance was killing me with this plane. both with the bills and with finding a shop. Sold it and cant go back to renting. So, back to becoming an owner again.
Looking at around $70k, but will go up 100k. Limit of 100k is personal , not a financial one.

So the mental process goes like this-
Get a 172. 2 doors, cheap insurance, maintenance, 4 seats, something to be said about simple. Done. Time to search for one, hopefully with an AP.
But its slow(105kts). So, maybe a Cherokee 180/Archer (115-125kts)
But its low wing, one door, and not fuel injected.
So for not much more, Mooney E/F/J model. Gets the retract thing I like, fuel injected. Fast (140+kts) But one door. Low wing access for some older people is getting almost too much for them. And retract insurance..
So, 182!. But, not FI (boo), but 2 doors(yaya). Checks TAP, screams internally looking at prices.
What about the unknown Cardinal? 2 doors, high wing, easiest entry, FI, faster than a 172. This unknown plane has to be a bargain, right? Back to TAP. Cue screaming and wailing again.
Experimental? Looks at TAP at RV-10's, close laptop and walk away
Maybe a 172. Cheap to own and run, high wing, 2 doors, but slow. Goto line 2, repeat

I know I should make a list of must haves and a list of nice to haves, but its not easy, when its a hobby. Any plane should be enough and satisfying.
I learned and did a lot of my hours in a Warrior, so I know what its like to push along at 105kts, but I have tasted the 145kts of the Bo, and the joy of hearing the gear come up and down. Its hard to go back to slow.

If I had to buy today, which I dont, I think 172 and be happy. But will tomorrow John feel the same?
 
How about 172 with 180hp and some speed mods?
 
Straight leg 210
TB-9
Viking
 
Tools said:
How about 172 with 180hp and some speed mods?
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LOL! I was with you until you said speed mods... ;-) But in any case no way there's C172 conversion < $70K. Well, except for a '58 on barnstormers for $65K. Maybe there are good deals to be found...
 
Grumman Tiger sounds like a good fit. Not as fast as a Mooney but 130-135 TAS on 9gph.

I am slightly biased as I have one BUT I think it’s worth a look for you.
 
there is no point to buy planes that you are competing with flight schools to acquire (namely 172's and some pipers). Go slightly off the beaten path for the better "value" for money if you are budget conscious.
 
asicer said:
Stinson 108?
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I like the Stinson, Love flying them.
But for the OP. much lower acquisition cost. But I hear Franklins are a bit harder to find parts for, but the same is true for 0-300's in older 172's.
I do love how smooth the Franklin's run. About 172 performance, but slightly higher fuel burn, and likely fabric vs metal. Stinson has smaller doors so a bit more challenging to get in and out of .

They are very cool looking and fly well.
Wish IO-360 conversion STC was readily available for the Stinson.

Might also consider a 150hp Pacer or Tri-pacer for similar 172 performance at lower cost and not as comfortable enter and exit.

I like the Mooney option, especially the longer J model. I have been flying a couple E models recently, really like the 160+ mph at about 8.5gph.
But the E model is really more of a 2+2 (2 adult+2 kids) airplane than a 4 place.

Maule might be a good option.

Brian
 
brcase said:
I like the Stinson, Love flying them.
But for the OP. much lower acquisition cost. But I hear Franklins are a bit harder to find parts for, but the same is true for 0-300's in older 172's.
I do love how smooth the Franklin's run. About 172 performance, but slightly higher fuel burn, and likely fabric vs metal. Stinson has smaller doors so a bit more challenging to get in and out of .

They are very cool looking and fly well.
Wish IO-360 conversion STC was readily available for the Stinson.

Might also consider a 150hp Pacer or Tri-pacer for similar 172 performance at lower cost and not as comfortable enter and exit.

I like the Mooney option, especially the longer J model. I have been flying a couple E models recently, really like the 160+ mph at about 8.5gph.
But the E model is really more of a 2+2 (2 adult+2 kids) airplane than a 4 place.

Maule might be a good option.

Brian
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The Franklins aren't nearly as well supported as the common Lycomings and Continentals but they aren't that bad to find parts for. I'd rather have to find parts for a Franklin than I would for some of the old Lycoming engines. The catch with Franklins is that they are not like a Lycoming or a Continental so you may end up with some headaches if you have a mechanic that tries to treat them all the same. But if the OP is complaining about 172 speed as it is, I don't think he's going to like the fuel rate or the speed of a Stinson. They're going to be slower, burn more fuel, and be less spacious than a 172. But it makes up for some of that with the ability to fly on floats or skis.

Which IO-360 conversion are you wishing was available for the Stinson? Lycoming or Continental? The Lycoming is an easy option. If I were going to do any engine conversion however, I'd favor the 220 franklin.
 
Commander or Super Musketeer with 2 doors. Good luck finding the latter (and I'll compete with you if one pops up) but a nicely equipped one seems like it would fit your niche AND budget.

I think the grumman's canopy counts for 2-door credit as well.
 
mondtster said:
The Franklins aren't nearly as well supported as the common Lycomings and Continentals but they aren't that bad to find parts for. I'd rather have to find parts for a Franklin than I would for some of the old Lycoming engines. The catch with Franklins is that they are not like a Lycoming or a Continental so you may end up with some headaches if you have a mechanic that tries to treat them all the same. But if the OP is complaining about 172 speed as it is, I don't think he's going to like the fuel rate or the speed of a Stinson. They're going to be slower, burn more fuel, and be less spacious than a 172. But it makes up for some of that with the ability to fly on floats or skis.

Which IO-360 conversion are you wishing was available for the Stinson? Lycoming or Continental? The Lycoming is an easy option. If I were going to do any engine conversion however, I'd favor the 220 franklin.
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I intentionally didn't specify which IO-360, I think either would be a good option. I would probably prefer the Lycoming a bit. I haven't see in Lycoming O-360 or IO-360 conversions for them but suspect there are a few out there.

Brian
 
brcase said:
I intentionally didn't specify which IO-360, I think either would be a good option. I would probably prefer the Lycoming a bit. I haven't see in Lycoming O-360 or IO-360 conversions for them but suspect there are a few out there.

Brian
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Univair has a Lycoming o-360 and an IO-360 conversion for them. But they're expensive. Cooper's Landing also has an o-360 STC. There have been several Continental IO-360s that have been installed but there is no STC for it as far as I know. There are also approvals for the 180hp Franklin, 220 Franklin, and the o-470.
 
Rcmutz said:
Nice looking 114. I have time in them back in the day. Nice flying airplane. Wish I had the cash, but I do love the low fixed costs of my Tiger!
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A friend has a 112 and I like it a great deal. His has the 200 HP so it's a not a short field airplane on a warm day. Tiger is also a fine choice ...
 
Tigers are not in that price range. Maybe a Traveler. I considered a Tiger when I was looking, but there were few for sale and prices were high.

I love the Tiger. Did my Private in one. Fun to fly.

Commanders are nice and comfortable. Two doors is nice. 114/115 are somewhat pricey.
 
Racerx said:
Arrow?
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I second the arrow.

I think it's reasonable for the load you're planning. And you get 135 kts and still that sweet, sweet retractable that you enjoyed with the bonanza!

And b/c people seem to dislike them - you can get 'em for cheaper than an archer or half the cherokees out there. I think the 182 would be ideal but yeah, TAP will crush those dreams really quick. No idea how they're so inflated relative to other models.

Edit: I see you're in the area. If you have any interest in arrows and want a closer look LMK. Happy to show you!
 
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Tom Wells said:
I second the arrow.

I think it's reasonable for the load you're planning. And you get 135 kts and still that sweet, sweet retractable that you enjoyed with the bonanza!

And b/c people seem to dislike them - you can get 'em for cheaper than an archer or half the cherokees out there. I think the 182 would be ideal but yeah, TAP will crush those dreams really quick. No idea how they're so inflated relative to other models.

Edit: I see you're in the area. If you have any interest in arrows and want a closer look LMK. Happy to show you!
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I’m convinced the 182 prices are inflated because all the old guys (over about 72) flying Comanches and Bonanzas are getting hit with crazy insurance prices and they are all downsizing to the non-retract 182’s driving the demand up and prices accordingly.
 
Tom Wells said:
I second the arrow.

I think it's reasonable for the load you're planning. And you get 135 kts and still that sweet, sweet retractable that you enjoyed with the bonanza!

And b/c people seem to dislike them - you can get 'em for cheaper than an archer or half the cherokees out there. I think the 182 would be ideal but yeah, TAP will crush those dreams really quick. No idea how they're so inflated relative to other models.

Edit: I see you're in the area. If you have any interest in arrows and want a closer look LMK. Happy to show you!
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I think that they are one of the better values out there now. Parts are fairly readily available. The Arrow III gives you huge amounts of range with a 72 gallon tanks. Everybody knows how to work on them. The next step up in performance from them, cost a lot more money for 25 more knots. Something I’ve had to tell the aircraft broker guys. With the new auto pilot, my workload is a lot less so the speed difference doesn’t really matter that much.
 
Tom Wells said:
I second the arrow.

I think it's reasonable for the load you're planning. And you get 135 kts and still that sweet, sweet retractable that you enjoyed with the bonanza!

And b/c people seem to dislike them - you can get 'em for cheaper than an archer or half the cherokees out there. I think the 182 would be ideal but yeah, TAP will crush those dreams really quick. No idea how they're so inflated relative to other models.

Edit: I see you're in the area. If you have any interest in arrows and want a closer look LMK. Happy to show you!
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But… get an Arrow II or newer. Arrow I and Arrow 200 (a I with a 200hp engine) will be too small in the back row.
 
I was looking at the Grummans and not seeing Tigers worth considering under $100K - a few, but with pretty old avioincs and/or higher time engines. Even well equipped Cheetahs push (or pass) the $100K mark.
 
I was in the same boat as you but my mission was for a plane that could go long distance. I too wanted a Cessna 182 but the prices people are asking for them are tainted with crack. I found this Arrow.....the seller posted it a day or two prior to me calling him and immediately I said "sold". Went and got it this past weekend. They said there were 15 other buyers lined up behind me. I didn't get everything I was looking but in my mind I had excepted that I wasn't gonna get everything I wanted and used it as a wish list.

https://www.hangar67.com/aircraft/1973-piper-arrow-ii/26234

Here were my criteria for my search:
-about 150knot cruise speed
-reasonable engine/airframe hours. Engine less than 1000hrs, airframe less than 5000hrs.
-no damage history & no flight school service
-Engine compressions greater than 74
-72 gallon tank
-Autopilot (with altitude hold preferred)
-Garmin GPS
-ADs complied with
-engine heater
-Interior in reasonable condition
-paint- presentable
-all other basics in working condition
-around $100k range
 
That is what I saw. I could find a better equipped Mooney for Tiger prices.

Strangely, few Tigers for sale have an HSI or any glass (all traditional instruments) or a "modern GSP." Modern being Garmin 430/530 level, much less a GTN.
 
Thanks for the replies-
100k is a limit. I am not ready to break that mental barrier just yet.
Low wing is a minus, due to the aging passengers I sometimes take. Its not a automatic dismissal, but its a consideration.

I dont see any 114's or Tigers under 100k that look like I should look hard at them. Maybe in the spring?

I totally forgot about Arrows! Off to research them.

@Tom Wells I am going to reach out when I am closer. Who are you using for annuals?


Arrow hits a lot of my wants, minus the low wing and one door. I learned in a PA-28, so I am pretty familiar with the cabin
 
charheep said:
I totally forgot about Arrows! Off to research them.
@Tom Wells I am going to reach out when I am closer. Who are you using for annuals?
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For annuals I have been using JA Air t KARR, but this year I'm going with another shop. JA was professional but definitely a very high priced option in the area. And for the last couple jobs I've inquired with them on they haven't been able to get me on the schedule, so I'm a little peeved about that.
 
Were the Arrows part of the Piper spar AD?
 
Have you considered a Beech Sierra? Roomy, comfortable, cruise around 130 knots or so. Good ones might be a bit over your 100k limit but may be within negotiation range.
 
Sundancer said:
I was looking at the Grummans and not seeing Tigers worth considering under $100K - a few, but with pretty old avioincs and/or higher time engines. Even well equipped Cheetahs push (or pass) the $100K mark.
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Yes. The prices have gotten out of hand, but I believe if you wait about 6-9 months, they will come down. Some of the asking prices are way more than what I believe the sell price turns out to be. I really don’t think folks are thinking through their asking prices. I lot of these folks are just adding up the total cost of what they paid for the airplane, and adding in purchase price of all the upgrades. You know once avionics are installed, they are used. Maybe 60% of retail value for avionics, paint, interior after about 5 years old. But, hey, if someone is willing to pay, why not ask it! I have seen 1977-1978 Tigers with G430s mid time engine newer paint advertised for $150K. What! And so it sits.

https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1789603-1977-Grumman-AA5B-tiger.html?catid=19533

Offer him, $100K, maybe settle at $110. This plane a year ago would of been $85-90K before the run up which is crazy. You’ll be upside down in this plane at the asking price. Seller not serious, gone fishing. Of course, maybe I am just cheap. But I know personally of a 78 Tiger, 1500 hr SMOH engine, Sensinich prop, no WAAS GPS, old KNS 80, original paint, 8 year old cloth interior that sold for $85K in August. Add in $25K of avionics, and you are at $110K with the latest G5,s and GFC 500.
 
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Aging passengers, I would be looking at Cardinals. Big doors, no struts in the way, not too high to climb into.

I would love to take my Dad (96)flying, but hard to get him into my Mooney, and about impossible to get him back out.
 
Pinecone said:
Aging passengers, I would be looking at Cardinals. Big doors, no struts in the way, not too high to climb into.

I would love to take my Dad (96)flying, but hard to get him into my Mooney, and about impossible to get him back out.
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"What about the unknown Cardinal? 2 doors, high wing, easiest entry, FI, faster than a 172. This unknown plane has to be a bargain, right? Back to TAP. Cue screaming and wailing again."
 
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