American Eagle response to the 1,500 rule

[j1b3h0]

That is only because they are tied into this union seniority thing. If they could hire captains directly from their competitors or the military, there would be no reason not to hire lower level worker bees.

As you probably know, that's one reason pilots are way underpaid, compared to other professionals...in a very real way, it's as if we are married to our employer. The inability to change jobs, without a severe lifestyle change, and of course, the Railway Labor Act...but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

 

[RotorAndWing]

As you probably know, that's one reason pilots are way underpaid, compared to other professionals...in a very real way, it's as if we are married to our employer. The inability to change jobs, without a severe lifestyle change, and of course, the Railway Labor Act...but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

I've watched pilots make unwise career choices. It's not the airlines fault or anyone else for that matter, it's theirs. Pilots get "shiny jet" fever and take low pay jobs not considering the economy, personal goals and other issues. Then they become stuck and want to blame everything but the truth.

I flew night freight under Part 135 building my experience along with a small corporate job. I was offered jobs at the "commuters" but all I saw was a low pay right seat job. I held out for the bigger goal of Part 121 airline career and eventually it paid off. My Part 135 cargo job as well as my corporate job paid well and I wasn't under the "shiny jet" mentality.

I paid for all my flight training on my own and by serving 4 years in the Navy to get the GI Bill benefits. I never felt anyone owed me and I was careful to make wise job choices.

And yes, the seniority system is not the best but I've yet to see a proposal that makes more sense with the exception of the national seniority system which I don't see happening in my lifetime for various reasons.

And yes, the RLA blows, big time.

 

[weilke]

As you probably know, that's one reason pilots are way underpaid, compared to other professionals...in a very real way, it's as if we are married to our employer. The inability to change jobs, without a severe lifestyle change, and of course, the Railway Labor Act...but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

For something that requires an education at the 2 year tradeschool level, airline pilots have done quite well.

 

[weilke]

And yes, the seniority system is not the best but I've yet to see a proposal that makes more sense with the exception of the national seniority system which I don't see happening in my lifetime for various reasons.

How about the airlines select their talent the same way any other industry in the US does ?

You open a new department, division, you go out and hire the people that have the qualifications you are looking for. You will end up with a mix of in-house people who know the company and its working and outsiders who may have a particular piece of paper (security clearance, nuclear materials handling certification, hazmat permit, type rating) that you are looking for to do the new project. In-house candidates may have first dibs on the jobs as they open, but if you need something they dont offer, you either go out and hire or train them up to the level you need.

It's really not that hard.

 

[n20junkie]

Really?

Do doctors really need and under grad and experiance gained as a resident?

They have done even better considering a vet does the same thing for a tenth of the price.

What about teachers? Do you need a masters to teach first graders how to color inside the lines?


Most airlines require an undergrad degree along with years of experiance to start in the mid 20's. I think your a little off there.

A 2 year degree as a nurse gets you a starting salary of mid 40's easily, and there are few real tough decisions, mountains of rules, or even a BAC limit to do it.

 

[Art VanDelay]

How about the airlines select their talent the same way any other industry in the US does ?

You open a new department, division, you go out and hire the people that have the qualifications you are looking for. You will end up with a mix of in-house people who know the company and its working and outsiders who may have a particular piece of paper (security clearance, nuclear materials handling certification, hazmat permit, type rating) that you are looking for to do the new project. In-house candidates may have first dibs on the jobs as they open, but if you need something they dont offer, you either go out and hire or train them up to the level you need.

It's really not that hard.

How many managers do you estimate it would take to manage 5000 employees under your system ?

 

[taters]

I expect there's a lot more to success at an airline career than just meeting standards in the flying evaluations, and seniority.

Absolutely correct, you have to accell and master all of the other things that have nothing to do with the flying skills...plus have luck on your side.

 

[weilke]

How many managers do you estimate it would take to manage 5000 employees under your system ?

I have allways wondered how rinkydink shops like IBM and GE have managed to stay in business without going bankrupt with that horrendous overhad of having to manage their employees.

 

[weilke]

Most airlines require an undergrad degree along with years of experiance to start in the mid 20's. I think your a little off there.

The bachelors is a requirement unilaterally imposed by some employers and not a formal entry qualification for the job as FO.
After that, whatever your qualifications are will govern what salary you can command, no different from driving trucks or drilling for oil.

A 2 year degree as a nurse gets you a starting salary of mid 40's easily, and there are few real tough decisions, mountains of rules, or even a BAC limit to do it.

That's not what we pay .

2 years would be an LPN, RN is a 4 year degree, that's where you may see 40s for starting salaries. They also work harder.

 

[Everskyward]

I have allways wondered how rinkydink shops like IBM and GE have managed to stay in business without going bankrupt with that horrendous overhad of having to manage their employees.

I think one of the problems which airline face is that they have large numbers of people who are doing essentially the same job. If you have 2,000 pilots that means you have 1,000 Captains and 1,000 FOs. They all need to meet a certain standard. How are you going to measure by how much they exceed that standard and how that should play into promotion? I agree that, at least from the outside, the seniority system seems to have its drawbacks but I'm not sure what the solution would be.

 

[weilke]

I think one of the problems which airline face is that they have large numbers of people who are doing essentially the same job.

Actually, they dont. The workforce is highly parcellized by aircraft types and bases. Each of those pairings can represent a department/division etc. Within a group of 20-30 captains, a good leader could easily figure out who has the skill to move to a different type (or who deserves a raise that makes it less likely for him/her to jump ship for the competitor that has a better match for the 401k or pays 10k more per year).

 

[Everskyward]

Actually, they dont. The workforce is highly parcellized by aircraft types and bases.

Which are also interchangeable. That's not to say that someone doesn't need training to move to a different aircraft type, just that everyone is supposedly capable of doing it. I think people can switch bases as long as there is an opening and they are senior enough to bid for it.

Within a group of 20-30 captains, a good leader could easily figure out who has the skill to move to a different type (or who deserves a raise that makes it less likely for him/her to jump ship for the competitor that has a better match for the 401k or pays 10k more per year).

Unless it's a very small airline I'm pretty sure there are far more than 20 to 30 captains at each base in each airplane. Then there are companies that only fly one or maybe two types. If you think it's easy to manage 20 to 30 pilots and make upgrade decisions I would invite you to come be a cat-herder where I work. No union, no set way to upgrade, just as much angst.

 

[MSPAviator]

I have allways wondered how rinkydink shops like IBM and GE have managed to stay in business without going bankrupt with that horrendous overhad of having to manage their employees.

In GE's case, it was pretty simple. When one of their divisions tanked and put the whole company in danger of hostile takeover or bankruptcy, they just asked their friend Uncle Sam to print out some more money to tide them over.

 

[weilke]

Which are also interchangeable. That's not to say that someone doesn't need training to move to a different aircraft type, just that everyone is supposedly capable of doing it. I think people can switch bases as long as there is an opening.

This is Deltas fleet (owned/leased/age). Some can be grouped together, but then the different bases split that up again. 4.5-6.5 crews/plane. The individual departments aren't that large if you look at it.

B737–700 10 – 10 2.7 B737–800 73 – 73 10.7 B747–400 4 11 15 18.3 B757–200 90 70 160 18.5 B757–300 16
– 16 8.6 B767–300 10 6 16 20.7 B767–300ER 50
7 57 15.4 B767–400ER 21 – 21 10.6 B777–200ER 8 – 8 11.7 B777–200LR 10 – 10 2.5 A319–100 55 2 57 9.7 A320–200 41 28 69 16.6 A330–200 11 – 11 6.5 A330–300 21 – 21 6.1 MD–88 66 51 117 21.2 MD–90 28 – 28 14.9 DC–9 27 – 27 33.3 CRJ–100
16 28 44 13.6 CRJ–200
– 2 2 16.4 CRJ–700 15 – 15 7.9 CRJ-900 13 – 13 3.8

If you think it's easy to manage 20 to 30 pilots and make upgrade decisions I would invite you to come be a cat-herder where I work. No union, no set way to upgrade, just as much angst.

Why is there such a need to have a communist 5 year economic plan in place to govern who upgrades ? People can upgrade all by themselves.

There is a position in a different department, preferably a paygrade above what you are right now, or at a base you want to go to, you put your name on the list. If your evaluations and your references are good and you are not an a## on the interview, you get sent for the new type-rating. To hedge against the new upgrade jumping ship, it comes with a committment and contractual penalty. Really, people are able to figure this out by themselves.

 

[Everskyward]

This is Deltas fleet (owned/leased/age). Some can be grouped together, but then the different bases split that up again. 4.5-6.5 crews/plane. The individual departments aren't that large if you look at it.

B737–700 10 – 10 2.7 B737–800 73 – 73 10.7 B747–400 4 11 15 18.3 B757–200 90 70 160 18.5 B757–300 16
– 16 8.6 B767–300 10 6 16 20.7 B767–300ER 50
7 57 15.4 B767–400ER 21 – 21 10.6 B777–200ER 8 – 8 11.7 B777–200LR 10 – 10 2.5 A319–100 55 2 57 9.7 A320–200 41 28 69 16.6 A330–200 11 – 11 6.5 A330–300 21 – 21 6.1 MD–88 66 51 117 21.2 MD–90 28 – 28 14.9 DC–9 27 – 27 33.3 CRJ–100
16 28 44 13.6 CRJ–200
– 2 2 16.4 CRJ–700 15 – 15 7.9 CRJ-900 13 – 13 3.8

Sorry, I can't really interpret that table. Are there 10 of the first airplane and 73 of the second one? That would mean there were about 60 captains and 60 FOs for the first airplane and many more for the second one, not 20 to 30.

Why is there such a need to have a communist 5 year economic plan in place to govern who upgrades ? People can upgrade all by themselves.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Communist plan? Upgrade by themselves?

There is a position in a different department, preferably a paygrade above what you are right now, or at a base you want to go to, you put your name on the list. If your evaluations and your references are good and you are not an a## on the interview, you get sent for the new type-rating. To hedge against the new upgrade jumping ship, it comes with a committment and contractual penalty. Really, people are able to figure this out by themselves.

So you potentially have how many applicants? 100? 200? More? I see what you are saying but I can also see why they do it the way they do. We are not talking one position open every once in a while. There would need to be a huge HR department to handle all the applications and interviews for each internal position.

 

[weilke]

Sorry, I can't really interpret that table. Are there 10 of the first airplane and 73 of the second one?

http://www.delta.com/about_delta/corporate_information/delta_stats_facts/aircraft_fleet/

That table looked better after I posted it initially.

That would mean there were about 60 captains and 60 FOs for the first airplane and many more for the second one, not 20 to 30.

Those 60 captains work out of how many, 8 different bases ?

I have no idea what you mean by this. Communist plan? Upgrade by themselves?

People who want to advance their career dont need a boss to tell them whether or when they are ready to do so. You want more money or responsibility, you either go to the boss and demand it or you look for a job that gives you what you are looking for.

There would need to be a huge HR department to handle all the applications and interviews for each internal position.

Can all be done by a computerized system, the information is already in the company HR system.
Every year, 35000 applicants apply for 25000 residency positions in medicine. Takes a computer 25 minutes to match everyone with a job, only a few positions remain unfilled. It's all numbers.

 

[Everskyward]

Those 60 captains work out of how many, 8 different bases ?

I don't know if those numbers are correct but you would have 8 different supervisors for 60 people? How would the pilots be judged?

People who want to advance their career dont need a boss to tell them whether or when they are ready to do so. You want more money or responsibility, you either go to the boss and demand it or you look for a job that gives you what you are looking for.

That might be true of people with unique skills within a company. Not so much so when people are more or less interchangeable. Hmmm, I make better landings than this other pilot so I'm going to demand a raise!

Can all be done by a computerized system, the information is already in the company HR system.
Every year, 35000 applicants apply for 25000 residency positions in medicine. Takes a computer 25 minutes to match everyone with a job, only a few positions remain unfilled. It's all numbers.

Seems like every pilot in the company is matched with a job too. I don't see your point. You're also talking about students all just coming out of school, not comparing people who have been doctors for 30 years to new ones. Who gets the low-scoring medical students anyway?

 

[weilke]

I don't know if those numbers are correct but you would have 8 different supervisors for 60 people? How would the pilots be judged?

Why not ? Can be working supes.

That might be true of people with unique skills within a company. Not so much so when people are more or less interchangeable. Hmmm, I make better landings than this other pilot so I'm going to demand a raise!

360 evaluation. Do you show up on time and is the plane reusable.

Seems like every pilot in the company is matched with a job too. I don't see your point.

This was simply to illustrate that dealing with 200 applications is really not that big of a deal. First you look at the ones that already have the rating and experience you need, if you dont find someone, you go down to the ones who fly something similar enough to upgrade cheaply etc.

Who gets the low-scoring medical students anyway?

Lol, I could tell you, but odds are a lot of them frequent this board.

 

[Everskyward]

Do you show up on time and is the plane reusable.

Yeah but that could be said of almost everyone else too.

This was simply to illustrate that dealing with 200 applications is really not that big of a deal. First you look at the ones that already have the rating and experience you need, if you dont find someone, you go down to the ones who fly something similar enough to upgrade cheaply etc.

In your world there is an opening for a B-777 Captain. There are 100 B-737 Captains and 100 Airbus Captains from your own airline who want this position. There are 100 B-777 Captains from other airlines who apply. How are you going to evaluate them?

As far as upgrading "cheaply", all pilots training to fly a certain airplane need to go through the same course regardless if they have flown something similar or not as long as it's a different type.

 

[maddog52]

Actually, they dont. The workforce is highly parcellized by aircraft types and bases. Each of those pairings can represent a department/division etc. Within a group of 20-30 captains, a good leader could easily figure out who has the skill to move to a different type (or who deserves a raise that makes it less likely for him/her to jump ship for the competitor that has a better match for the 401k or pays 10k more per year).

How do you measure it? Do you take multiple rides with each of your crews. You can't sit at your desk or in your office and observe all your people everyday like you can in medicine, law or making widgets. The mobile nature of the business makes that impossible. Having seen the favoritism, sexism, and nepotism that occurs in the "non seniority" workplaces, I don't think it's any better than a seniority based system for the airlines.

Why would the airlines want to hire a a new captian at 100k when they can get him starting at 25k?

 

[weilke]

In your world there is an opening for a B-777 Captain. There are 100 B-737 Captains and 100 Airbus Captains from your own airline who want this position. There are 100 B-777 Captains from other airlines who apply. How are you going to evaluate them?

Only a few will have the qualifications to take the job in the first place, you whittle it down by formal criteria and interview a couple. Just did that with someone for an associate position today. I'll call his references during the week, I like what he has to offer, I think I can work with him and hope he takes the job. It's not rocket surgery.

As far as upgrading "cheaply", all pilots training to fly a certain airplane need to go through the same course regardless if they have flown something similar or not as long as it's a different type.

For your 777 gig, are you going to take the guy who flies DC9s from Detroit to Minneapolis or someone who has already done the transatlantic gig in a 767 for a couple of years ?

 

[weilke]

Why would the airlines want to hire a a new captian at 100k when they can get him starting at 25k?

Where would they find someone with captains qualifications for 25k ?

 

[Everskyward]

Only a few will have the qualifications to take the job in the first place

I disagree. I think most of the people I described would qualify.

 

[maddog52]

Bah. They put kids in fighters. It's about the training. And the competition. .....

Yes it is. There is huge amount of competition, testing and evaluation to even get to military pilot training. Then once there, the training is very intense, structured and uniform. The wash out rate is significantly higher than the pilot mills where you can progess as long as you can fog a mirror and have the money to pay your way. The 250 hour kid in the right seat of an RJ iis hardly even the same species as the 250 hour kid in the fighter.

The cost to the U.S. government for pilot training is an order of magnitude greater than the 100k the RJ kid paid for. If you could get a pilot mill to match the process for even half the cost, you"re still talking about a very expensive solution.

 

[maddog52]

Where would they find someone with captains qualifications for 25k ?

Everybody hired at the majors for the last decade has captain qualifications.

 

[weilke]

I disagree. I think most of the people I described would qualify.

Formal minimum qualifications yes. Qualifications set by the hiring manager, no.

 

[maddog52]

Observation:

It seems to me that the professional pilots on this board that have been in a part 121 or 135 cockpit believe that while the 1500 hour rule is not perfect, it is a step in the right direction.

Yes or no?

 

[Everskyward]

Formal minimum qualifications yes. Qualifications set by the hiring manager, no.

I still disagree. What qualifications would you even set?

 

[texasplt]

Observation:

It seems to me that the professional pilots on this board that have been in a part 121 or 135 cockpit believe that while the 1500 hour rule is not perfect, it is a step in the right direction.

Yes or no?

Definitely Yes.

 

[weilke]

I still disagree. What qualifications would you even set?

Whatever makes sense, like having the type rating already, experience of flying in a particular corner of the world. Why should you have to take whoever the next guy on the list is ?

 

[Everskyward]

Whatever makes sense, like having the type rating already, experience of flying in a particular corner of the world. Why should you have to take whoever the next guy on the list is ?

I think taking someone from another company and trying to integrate them into your company's culture would be a much bigger barrier than getting a type rating or flying to new countries. Airlines are all about standardization. Even in a much smaller company with less standardization, bringing in someone with more experience from the outside can be more of a challenge than training someone who is known quantity and has already been programmed to the culture.

 

[Everskyward]

Observation:

It seems to me that the professional pilots on this board that have been in a part 121 or 135 cockpit believe that while the 1500 hour rule is not perfect, it is a step in the right direction.

Yes or no?

What? More regulation of private business?

I would like to think that the 1,500 hour rule is unnecessary because airlines wouldn't hire pilots with too little experience. Back in the day when my peers were looking at working for the "commuters" it seems like they needed 2,000 hours or more to be competitive. This was flying smaller airplanes like Beech 99s and Metroliners not regional jets. The pay was comparatively just as bad back then.

Personally I can't say that I've flown with low time FOs except for a couple in the King Air, but the King Air is a single-pilot airplane and we usually flew it that way unless the customer decided they felt better and were willing to pay for seeing two bodies. These FOs did fine but it is a far cry from being an airline FO in a jet. The other new FOs I have flown with all had at least a couple thousand hours, and some had much more, before they went to their first jet which for us were Lears. This is how it was for me too. Even coming from King Airs that was a big step and I'm not sure how well it would have worked out with a very low time pilot who only had small piston experience. I'm torn about the rule, though.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Formal minimum qualifications yes. Qualifications set by the hiring manager, no.

Those tend to change depending on supply and demand. But let me tell you right now, Management wants cheap, not quality.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Whatever makes sense, like having the type rating already, experience of flying in a particular corner of the world. Why should you have to take whoever the next guy on the list is ?

Because it is cheap.

 

[Art VanDelay]

I have allways wondered how rinkydink shops like IBM and GE have managed to stay in business without going bankrupt with that horrendous overhad of having to manage their employees.

What do you imagine earnings would look like if they COULD manage 5000 professional level employees with only EIGHT managers ? This of course is made possible by the system in place at just about EVERY airline in the world. But I guess you know something that they don't. As for GE I guess you don't own any of their stock, they ain't exactly setting the world on fire.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Observation:

It seems to me that the professional pilots on this board that have been in a part 121 or 135 cockpit believe that while the 1500 hour rule is not perfect, it is a step in the right direction.

Yes or no?

Yep.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I think taking someone from another company and trying to integrate them into your company's culture would be a much bigger barrier than getting a type rating or flying to new countries. Airlines are all about standardization. Even in a much smaller company with less standardization, bringing in someone with more experience from the outside can be more of a challenge than training someone who is known quantity and has already been programmed to the culture.

Exactly.

 

[weilke]

I think taking someone from another company and trying to integrate them into your company's culture would be a much bigger barrier than getting a type rating or flying to new countries. Airlines are all about standardization.

Yet Skywest can find their way to a Delta or United terminal depending on whoevers paperwork got printed out that particular day.

 

[Everskyward]

Yet Skywest can find their way to a Delta or United terminal depending on whoevers paperwork got printed out that particular day.

That only has to do with the colors painted on the outside. I don't think they use different procedures depending on what airline they are flying for. They use their own.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Yet Skywest can find their way to a Delta or United terminal depending on whoevers paperwork got printed out that particular day.

That only has to do with the colors painted on the outside. I don't think they use different procedures depending on what airline they are flying for. They use their own.

Exactly. And the paperwork does NOT change depending on the colors. Skywest is one company with one set of procedures and one set of paperwork. Doesn't matter which set of gates they go to.