Amazon [contract] pilots are grumbling

David Megginson said:
As far as I know, those pilots get paid only for the time the parking brake is off, not for waiting between flights, pre-flight checks, loading/unloading time, weather and route briefings, etc. etc. etc. So no, it's not working less than half time, any more than a firefighter is working less than half time because they're not always holding a hose.
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I think you got that backwards. Firefighters are paid whether they're holding a hose or not. If you're saying the pilots aren't paid for time they're working but not flying, I think that violates some labor laws.
 
Lindberg said:
If you're saying the pilots aren't paid for time they're working but not flying, I think that violates some labor laws.
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We are under the Railway Labor Act. In many ways, it differs significantly from the labor law under which most Americans work. Sometimes that's good for us, often it isn't.

I leave for a trip tomorrow. Will leave the house about about 5pm tomorrow to commute to my domicile. I'll pay $104.49 for a hotel room. My trip starts Wednesday morning 08:33. At that time, I start earning $2.45 per hour per diem. That will continue until 15 minutes after the arrival of my last leg on Saturday.

At 09:33, I'm scheduled to depart for my first destination. When the brakes are released for pushback, my pay-time starts. It's scheduled to be 2h03 of block time, arriving 12:36. When the brakes are set at the gate my pay stops. I'm then off to the hotel until the following morning after 3h18 on-duty and total pay for that day is the 2h03.

Day two is 8h37 duty and 6h41 flight time/pay.

Day three is 8h57 duty; 6h48 pay.

Day four is 8h49 duty; 6h32 pay. Finish in Chicago at 13:19 and hope I can get on the first flight home which would get me home around 16:45.

I leave home Tuesday around 5:00pm, arrive back Saturday around 4:45pm. I fly 7 legs and am paid 22h04 plus about $188 per diem; $104.49 of which I'll spend on that hotel room the night before the trip starts. That'll leave about $84 for meals. I'll buy six or seven meals on the trip.

Overall, a better than average trip. Only one short (<12hr) layover and no more than two legs in a day. Many of 4-day trips pay only 20h00 and fly more legs (i.e. more work & duty that you aren't being paid for).
 
Lindberg said:
I think you got that backwards. Firefighters are paid whether they're holding a hose or not. If you're saying the pilots aren't paid for time they're working but not flying, I think that violates some labor laws.
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Many airlines only pay when the aircraft is blocked out, so yes, the preflight paperwork and walk around is not payed, and no, it doesn’t violate labor laws. Like Larry said, the RLA is a different kind of animal.
 
steingar said:
Something really smells. There's supposed to be this big pilot shortage. All these airlines showed up at Oshkosh to try and hire pilots. If all that's true, how does Amazon lowball? They aren't that old, no one has been flying with them that long. Smells.
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No one flys for amazon now. Amazon is the customer.
 
Busflyer said:
Many airlines only pay when the aircraft is blocked out, so yes, the preflight paperwork and walk around is not payed, and no, it doesn’t violate labor laws. Like Larry said, the RLA is a different kind of animal.
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If an airline started to require their pilots to work 8 hr shifts and paid them 30% less per hour or put them on straight salary there would be no end to the whining about it.
 
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At my airline we have a very limited number of 1 day trips that are out and backs. It’s a bit more than 8 hours, usually 10 to 12 hour day. They go hugely senior. If we have 4 lines of them available they go to the top 4 pilots. There is nothing like sleeping in your own bed every night.
 
weilke said:
If an airline started to require their pilots to work 8 hr shifts and paid them 30% less per hour or put them on straight salary there would be no end to the whining about it.
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Not only would the pilots not like it but management wouldn't, either.

The current system does a good job of approximating your productivity and paying you proportionally. i.e. fly more, get paid more. It also provides significant incentive to pick up additional flying on days off due to the relatively large amount of extra money you can earn. Pilots like that. Management also likes that because, even though the pilot is earning a lot of extra money, it is still less expensive than hiring more pilots to do the extra flying and it allows flexibility in months with more flying (summer, holidays, etc.) without committing them to paying for more pilots during the slower months.

While the current system may be hard to understand for those outside the industry, it works well for both pilots and airlines.
 
weilke said:
If an airline started to require their pilots to work 8 hr shifts and paid them 30% less per hour or put them on straight salary there would be no end to the whining about it.
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I worked for a small 135 scheduled commuter that changed from flight hour pay to a monthly salary. Believe me they tried to get every minute out of that 14 hour duty day. When the pay changed, I started writing up every little maintenance squawk and my weather minimums went up.

Pilots worked 14 on, 14 off and when the pay went to salary the management thought the pilots could now be scheduled to work days off without adding to the salary.
 
Zeldman said:
Pilots worked 14 on, 14 off and when the pay went to salary the management thought the pilots could now be scheduled to work days off without adding to the salary.
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so, like the software industry...
 
Busflyer said:
Many airlines only pay when the aircraft is blocked out, so yes, the preflight paperwork and walk around is not payed, and no, it doesn’t violate labor laws. Like Larry said, the RLA is a different kind of animal.
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You're exempt, yes? So by contractual agreement, the amount you're paid is generally based on the amount of time you fly, but that doesn't mean your other work is "unpaid." My compensation is based on an 8-hour day and a 40-hour week. If I stay late or work on Saturday, that doesn't mean I'm unpaid.
 
Lindberg said:
You're exempt, yes? So by contractual agreement, the amount you're paid is generally based on the amount of time you fly, but that doesn't mean your other work is "unpaid." My compensation is based on an 8-hour day and a 40-hour week. If I stay late or work on Saturday, that doesn't mean I'm unpaid.
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I think their point about not being paid except for when they are flying is for the people who think that they are being paid $100+ per hour for “part time” work. Yes, 6 figures for flying 80 hours per month sounds like part time to the average Joe, but the hours on duty while not flying aren’t being considered to those people.
 
Jmcmanna said:
I think their point about not being paid except for when they are flying is for the people who think that they are being paid $100+ per hour for “part time” work. Yes, 6 figures for flying 80 hours per month sounds like part time to the average Joe, but the hours on duty while not flying aren’t being considered to those people.
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Many years ago I had a crew scheduler comment to me how he felt pilot's were over paid for what they did. My response? "Hey, not my problem that you got in the wrong line during career day in high school". I then proceeded to tell him the job doesn't discriminate, he was free to go get all his ratings up through ATP, and go work a few thousand hours in lower paying jobs to gain experience, and he too could enjoy the benefits.

Oh, he never brought up the subject again....;)
 
That’s exactly right....nothing is stopping anyone else from going to medical school for 8 years and working their way into a high paying MD job. As an ATC I’ll be eligible to retire when I am 49; that’s part of why I picked that job. If anyone complains about someone else having something they don’t....they can go jump through the hoops to get it themselves. There is sometimes luck along the way, but we are all where we are because of the choices we made.
 
Many pedestrian aviation industry workers often forget to normalize for TAFB when they cast aspersions on pilot jobs. A nuance at least most ATC folks I know actually understand and successfully pivoted around, as highlighted above.
 
Jmcmanna said:
That’s exactly right....nothing is stopping anyone else from going to medical school for 8 years and working their way into a high paying MD job. As an ATC I’ll be eligible to retire when I am 49; that’s part of why I picked that job. If anyone complains about someone else having something they don’t....they can go jump through the hoops to get it themselves. There is sometimes luck along the way, but we are all where we are because of the choices we made.
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Be realistic. The vast majority of people don't have the academic talent to get into medical school. It is savagely competitive, just like your position was, and still is.
 
FormerHangie said:
Be realistic. The vast majority of people don't have the academic talent to get into medical school. It is savagely competitive, just like your position was, and still is.
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Be that as it may, I wasn't impressed with the intellectual prowess of the medical residents I know. They fully admit it's a function of aptitude towards boredom tolerance and attention span/staying power on a long term basis, rather than actual academic rigor. I would say surgeons is where you start splitting the wheat from the chaff, as a percentage of the medical corps.

Similar belly aching is constantly brought about by enlisted who bemoan the fact a college degree is required to become a pilot in the USAF. Same dynamics. When they highlight the fact a degree doesn't improve aptitude towards manipulating a stick and throttle, I retort with the same as above. I don't make the rules, I just play the game, and instant gratification types will always get left behind when it comes to the competitive spots. Complaining about the superfluous nature to the barriers is to complain about the unfairness of life.
 
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cowman said:
I get that it's comparatively low but isn't $100k/year still a darn good wage? I would think most people would be thrilled to be making that kind of money.
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“Most people” don’t spend $100k on preparing for a job they MIGHT get. “Most people” don’t have an ATP. How about a conversation about what “most qualified” people will do?
 
FormerHangie said:
I have done a couple of 14 days on, never got a 14 days off afterwards. It's certainly not the norm, but it does happen.
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14 days on, 14 hours off is more the norm in the software industry.
 
Lindberg said:
You're exempt, yes? So by contractual agreement, the amount you're paid is generally based on the amount of time you fly, but that doesn't mean your other work is "unpaid." My compensation is based on an 8-hour day and a 40-hour week. If I stay late or work on Saturday, that doesn't mean I'm unpaid.
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I agree. The problem is people see pay rates of $250 an hour and then see it for 75 hours a month and think that we are highly paid part time workers. It’s just how most airline pay is structured that makes it look that way.
An airline could base their pay on duty hours. If they did that you’d be looking at a number around 200 hours a month. In that case the hourly wage would be closer to $95 an hour. We’ve just been historically paid based on flight time.

Where it differs is that in your example of working Saturday, your obviously on a salary. Pilots are sort of a hybrid. We get a monthly guarantee (salary), but if we fly more than a certain amount (usually 75 hours ) we get paid as an hourly.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Similar belly aching is constantly brought about by enlisted who bemoan the fact a college degree is required to become a pilot in the USAF. Same dynamics. When they highlight the fact a degree doesn't improve aptitude towards manipulating a stick and throttle, I retort with the same as above. I don't make the rules, I just play the game, and instant gratification types will always get left behind when it comes to the competitive spots. Complaining about the superfluous nature to the barriers is to complain about the unfairness of life.
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Turns out there are avenues for each and every one of them to pursue said goal, at least with the appropriate amount of hard work, luck, and timing....as in everything else in the military. I've lost track of how many former junior Sailors I used to work with, that have now commissioned. Most of them didn't end up in aviation, though a few of the younger ones have. My last skipper was a 31 year O-5 who did 10+ as an enlisted guy, then went NFO to S-3's, then FA-18's. Great American, worked his a** off in every job he ever held. Also a VERY avid GA pilot which is pretty cool, and sometimes uncommon in this business. Just loved (loves) aviation of all kinds, and put in the work to make it his job. I think a lot of those kids complaining could take a lesson from a guy like that........a guy who I've seen spend hours upon hours teaching the junior E's the things they need to know, as well as helping them along the way to bigger and better things like pinning some gold bars and wings onto the uniform. Unfortunately they don't all get that sea daddy.
 
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