Am I way off base here....

I really think it depends on what the condition of the tire was prior to the flight. If it was older, worn, and nearly time for new ones, I don't think its a big deal. In that case, I wouldn't consider paying for the tire, and would take my business elsewhere if they made an issue out of it. On the flip side, if they put the tire on yesterday, and I destroyed it, I'm going to pay for it. Also, if it were a regular occurrence, I'd imagine I'd be paying. I flat spotted one at an FBO once, and did so badly. I got back from the flight, filed a squawk, and that was that.

At what point does charging customers for consumables start causing issues. Would you be happy if the FBO wanted to charge you for a light that burnt out while you had possession of the plane?
 
So I just heard from my instructor...he says that the owner of the flight school I train at wants me to pay 100 dollars for the tire replacement on the plane I soloed in..

Back story:
During my first solo, I messed up on my first landing...I locked the brakes pretty hard, and left a lot of rubber on the runway...one of the tires had the steel belt showing.
It was just a brain fart...I had gotten so used to doing touch and gos...that, combined with the stress of my first solo, and the fact that, for some reason, I was obsessed with turning off at the first taxiway...anyway...

I paid an extra 2.50 an hour for the 10,000$ hull insurance, besides, isn't replacing tires due to new student pilots messing up kind of an expected operating expense??:dunno:

Am I off-base in thinking I shouldn't be expected to pay this 100$

Okay...I'm going to say this one more time. At no point have I said I am ducking responsibility...at no point did I claim to have not made a mistake...at no point have I said I didn't learn a lesson...

But apparently I am "trying to duck an ethical stricture" and engaging in "a hazarous attitude" and "poor decision making" and not "owning up to a problem"


What "problem"?
What "attitude"?

:dunno:
And just as an aside, this thread started out as healthy discussion and debate about wheather or not the School should, or more to the point, wheather or not it was good buisness practice for a school to collect money for something like this from a student or if it should just be considered a normal buisness expense...I had some debate, read several opinions, and was ready to move on. Then certain posters decided to start making little jabs about dodging responsibilty, and other attacks on my character...I'm sorry, but I couldn't let it go...at this point I have pretty much decided to just pay it and move on. Now I am mad at myself for letting those comments get me this upset.
Actually, the question posed in the thread title is, "Am I way off base here..." My response is, "yes."

The question was restated as, "Am I off-base in thinking I shouldn't be expected to pay this 100$?" My response is, "yes."

You clarified by saying, "at no point did I claim to have not made a mistake...at no point have I said I didn't learn a lesson..." That is good and laudable. I congratulate you on a mature attitude. Truly, I do. It is difficult to admit. And, I am sure the lessons you learned was to relax a little, think a little further ahead, and to take control of the rush. All good.

You say, "Then certain posters decided to start making little jabs." I apologize for coming on too strong. It was a pretty hefty poke in the ribs.

You ask "if it should just be considered a normal buisness expense?" Once again, the answer is "yes." It probably is a good business practice to just shrug it off and pay for it themselves. After all, those knick-knack stores with the cute little "You break it, you buy it" signs don't encourage me to shop there.

But, that school also has a obligation to go the extra step with you and all their students. I hold pilots to a higher standard than just standing up for their rights. As an illustration, the first time I went to Oshkosh, it was amazing to be someplace where there were so many people and no trash litter anywhere. Then I saw the reason in action. A little kid was walking with his parents and eating an ice cream bar. While they walked, he tore off the wrapper and dropped it to the ground and walked away without looking back. Before I could, someone else walked over immediately to pick it up and put the wrapper in a trashcan. It was the right thing to do.

So, I ask you, which action causes you to feel the most proud of yourself? Which action is the most honorable? That is what I expect from a pilot.
 
Hey, stuff happens, especially with students flying rental planes.

Any business owner worth his salt would factor in an "excess wear-n-tear" factor into his pricing and projections. Flat spotted tires are too common for the owner not to have considered. Let's look at the other side -- how many of his tires last beyond expected life??? He's money up on that. Every so often one's going to get trashed. Cost of business. If he's setting prices on that thin a margin that he can't handle one new tire, then he's not setting prices correctly. Moreover, $100??? Get a Dresser retread - what's that, like $60? And let the student do it himself -- I'd jump all over that opportunity.

I, for one, don't think you're off base, Herr Doktor Cleared for the Option.
 
On the original question, Yes, I think you are off base. Smoking a tire a bit during training is normal. Flatspotting to the belts is not. You should pay, without question, and I think $100 is quite reasonable.

However - you screwed up a little. That's okay, we all have at some point (and by "we", I mean at least "I"). When you do, you pay for it, learn from it, and move on. Since you didn't say anything about six more blown tires - sounds like you've already done that.

opinions, and was ready to move on. Then certain posters decided to start making little jabs about dodging responsibilty, and other attacks on my character...I'm sorry, but I couldn't let it go...at this point I have pretty much decided to just pay it and move on. Now I am mad at myself for letting those comments get me this upset.

On this quote - bear in mind that people aren't always good at responding directly to what you (the OP) said. They may/are trying to make a point in response to 3 or 4 posts that they've read in the thread. A thick skin is helpful - so is thinking carefully about what you post to a group of people who all know their opinion is correct. :wink2:

Tim
 
What it comes down to, to me, is you're wasting a LOT of time worrying about a measly $100 tire and you seem to be getting stressed over it. You're also willing to put your relationship with the school at risk (switching schools could easily cost you more then that).

It's $100. You broke the tire. They want the money. You can stress out over it and waste time arguing or you can pay and move on. If it were me, I'd pay and move on. We're talking about $100. Not $10,000.

This won't be the last time someone "screws" you out of $100 in aviation.
 
This won't be the last time someone "screws" you out of $100 in aviation.

Truer words were never spoken.


There is no place for these personal attacks some of you are enaged in.

I think the young man is being quite reasonable, and it is natural to ask the question he asks. I think those who are attacking him as irresponsible, telling him to "man up" and such other nonsense are entirely out of line. Putting aside for a moment that you are completely misconstruing the question answer me this. What purpose is there to ask a question here if the response is going to be an ad hominem attack?

We don't even know what happened. The pilot does not indicate exactly what happened just the outcome. Was there a sudden gust of wind that he reacted to by pushing on the brakes a bit too hard? And if there was did he sacrifice a tire to save the ship from greater damage? Since there is no indication that the airplane did not go straight before the brake locking up, he must have been pushing both of them with approximately the same force. Why did one lock and not the other. Maybe the problem was with the brakes. Did he have any training on max performance stops? Did the instructor ever show him how much braking was too much? If not, then how would he know until he exceeded the limit. Remember this is a student pilot on his first solo. You want to berate me when I do that, go ahead, but not this guy.

His question about how to react to the bill was reasonable.

It is not unreasonable for someone to say, hey I made a mistake, but am I the financially responsible party? Personal responsibility and financial responsibility are two different things. The young man has admitted he flat spotted the tire. He has presumably learned two thing from the mistake, a) how hard to push on a brake, and b) if you want to be berated here is the place to come.

What about the instructor who soloed him? I instructed 1500 hours and I NEVER had anyone break an airplane on their first solo, or any time during training for that matter. And that was back in the day when we routinely soloed pilots with less than 15 hours, sometimes much less.

The FBO is out of line. They are unwilling to accept their responsibility for the business they are in which is to give inexperience pilots the keys to the airplane on the say so of a barely more experienced instructor (generally). Stuff will happen and flat spotted tires seems to me to be a pretty minimal adverse outcome.

I know times are tough but just a like a marriage you don't go into business expecting everything to be wonderful everyday. If you are not good enough as a business person to budget and plan for unexpected mtx maybe you need to be in another business. It is extremely foreseeable that a training aircraft will run through tires at a high rate - plan for it!

FBO owners are the worst business people I have ever had the displeasure to deal with. They know when they get into it that the business is more likely to lose money than to make money. In fact it is nearly impossible to make a profit and they know it. Then they cry about not making money.

This FBO owner is even worse. He sent his instructor to do his job. If the owner wants to collect $100.00 he needs to walk up to the student and ask for it not send his instructor on a collection mission which is the cowardly thing to do. If anyone needs to "man up" it is the FBO owner.

And you folks here who attack this young man on a personal level for asking a perfectly reasonable question - have you no shame? To have uncertainty and go to an expert for advice (which is really what he is doing) should not be met with attacks on ones character. And leave the Bravo Sierra about folks needing a tough skin in your box of irrelevant platitudes where it belongs. He is not a politician, he is not a public figure, he is not an editorial writer. He is young pilot who asks a group of people whom he obviously respects for advice and gets attacked for doing so. I say it again - have you no shame?

Now don't wimp out and say that telling someone to take responsibility for their actions is not a personal attack. IT IS! By saying he should you are implying he has not done so and he obviously has. The question asked was not one about responsibility, it was whether or not he should be required to pay for the tire. Those are two different issues. And as you can see from the responses there is no consensus.

I would tell the FBO owner that I'm not paying, but I don't want him to have any concerns over the safety of his equipment and so I'll go rent somewhere else. The worst the FBO operator can do is sue and I don't think there is an honest judge anywhere in the world who wouldn't tell the FBO to go pound sand. Blown tires are a routine mtx item in a flight school.
 
We told the dispatcher about it, and the tire was fixed in time for the next student's scheduled flight


I think the more correct analogy would be: If I were taking a drivers ed class, and didn't have my license, and hit a pothole too fast and blew a tire...do you really think the Driver's Ed people would try to hit me for the cost of a new tire...they take the liability of allowing a non licensed driver in the car.

You done damage to their plane by not operating it correctly. Do the right thing and pay for your damages. Having said that I would pay % based on tire tread left at time of incident. That is only fair.
 
Don't hold back, Arnold. How do you really feel?

Truer words were never spoken.


There is no place for these personal attacks some of you are enaged in.

I think the young man is being quite reasonable, and it is natural to ask the question he asks. I think those who are attacking him as irresponsible, telling him to "man up" and such other nonsense are entirely out of line. Putting aside for a moment that you are completely misconstruing the question answer me this. What purpose is there to ask a question here if the response is going to be an ad hominem attack?

We don't even know what happened. The pilot does not indicate exactly what happened just the outcome. Was there a sudden gust of wind that he reacted to by pushing on the brakes a bit too hard? And if there was did he sacrifice a tire to save the ship from greater damage? Since there is no indication that the airplane did not go straight before the brake locking up, he must have been pushing both of them with approximately the same force. Why did one lock and not the other. Maybe the problem was with the brakes. Did he have any training on max performance stops? Did the instructor ever show him how much braking was too much? If not, then how would he know until he exceeded the limit. Remember this is a student pilot on his first solo. You want to berate me when I do that, go ahead, but not this guy.

His question about how to react to the bill was reasonable.

It is not unreasonable for someone to say, hey I made a mistake, but am I the financially responsible party? Personal responsibility and financial responsibility are two different things. The young man has admitted he flat spotted the tire. He has presumably learned two thing from the mistake, a) how hard to push on a brake, and b) if you want to be berated here is the place to come.

What about the instructor who soloed him? I instructed 1500 hours and I NEVER had anyone break an airplane on their first solo, or any time during training for that matter. And that was back in the day when we routinely soloed pilots with less than 15 hours, sometimes much less.

The FBO is out of line. They are unwilling to accept their responsibility for the business they are in which is to give inexperience pilots the keys to the airplane on the say so of a barely more experienced instructor (generally). Stuff will happen and flat spotted tires seems to me to be a pretty minimal adverse outcome.

I know times are tough but just a like a marriage you don't go into business expecting everything to be wonderful everyday. If you are not good enough as a business person to budget and plan for unexpected mtx maybe you need to be in another business. It is extremely foreseeable that a training aircraft will run through tires at a high rate - plan for it!

FBO owners are the worst business people I have ever had the displeasure to deal with. They know when they get into it that the business is more likely to lose money than to make money. In fact it is nearly impossible to make a profit and they know it. Then they cry about not making money.

This FBO owner is even worse. He sent his instructor to do his job. If the owner wants to collect $100.00 he needs to walk up to the student and ask for it not send his instructor on a collection mission which is the cowardly thing to do. If anyone needs to "man up" it is the FBO owner.

And you folks here who attack this young man on a personal level for asking a perfectly reasonable question - have you no shame? To have uncertainty and go to an expert for advice (which is really what he is doing) should not be met with attacks on ones character. And leave the Bravo Sierra about folks needing a tough skin in your box of irrelevant platitudes where it belongs. He is not a politician, he is not a public figure, he is not an editorial writer. He is young pilot who asks a group of people whom he obviously respects for advice and gets attacked for doing so. I say it again - have you no shame?

Now don't wimp out and say that telling someone to take responsibility for their actions is not a personal attack. IT IS! By saying he should you are implying he has not done so and he obviously has. The question asked was not one about responsibility, it was whether or not he should be required to pay for the tire. Those are two different issues. And as you can see from the responses there is no consensus.

I would tell the FBO owner that I'm not paying, but I don't want him to have any concerns over the safety of his equipment and so I'll go rent somewhere else. The worst the FBO operator can do is sue and I don't think there is an honest judge anywhere in the world who wouldn't tell the FBO to go pound sand. Blown tires are a routine mtx item in a flight school.
 
Truer words were never spoken.


There is no place for these personal attacks some of you are enaged in.

I think the young man is being quite reasonable, and it is natural to ask the question he asks. I think those who are attacking him as irresponsible, telling him to "man up" and such other nonsense are entirely out of line. Putting aside for a moment that you are completely misconstruing the question answer me this. What purpose is there to ask a question here if the response is going to be an ad hominem attack?

We don't even know what happened. The pilot does not indicate exactly what happened just the outcome. Was there a sudden gust of wind that he reacted to by pushing on the brakes a bit too hard? And if there was did he sacrifice a tire to save the ship from greater damage? Since there is no indication that the airplane did not go straight before the brake locking up, he must have been pushing both of them with approximately the same force. Why did one lock and not the other. Maybe the problem was with the brakes. Did he have any training on max performance stops? Did the instructor ever show him how much braking was too much? If not, then how would he know until he exceeded the limit. Remember this is a student pilot on his first solo. You want to berate me when I do that, go ahead, but not this guy.

His question about how to react to the bill was reasonable.

It is not unreasonable for someone to say, hey I made a mistake, but am I the financially responsible party? Personal responsibility and financial responsibility are two different things. The young man has admitted he flat spotted the tire. He has presumably learned two thing from the mistake, a) how hard to push on a brake, and b) if you want to be berated here is the place to come.

What about the instructor who soloed him? I instructed 1500 hours and I NEVER had anyone break an airplane on their first solo, or any time during training for that matter. And that was back in the day when we routinely soloed pilots with less than 15 hours, sometimes much less.

The FBO is out of line. They are unwilling to accept their responsibility for the business they are in which is to give inexperience pilots the keys to the airplane on the say so of a barely more experienced instructor (generally). Stuff will happen and flat spotted tires seems to me to be a pretty minimal adverse outcome.

I know times are tough but just a like a marriage you don't go into business expecting everything to be wonderful everyday. If you are not good enough as a business person to budget and plan for unexpected mtx maybe you need to be in another business. It is extremely foreseeable that a training aircraft will run through tires at a high rate - plan for it!

FBO owners are the worst business people I have ever had the displeasure to deal with. They know when they get into it that the business is more likely to lose money than to make money. In fact it is nearly impossible to make a profit and they know it. Then they cry about not making money.

This FBO owner is even worse. He sent his instructor to do his job. If the owner wants to collect $100.00 he needs to walk up to the student and ask for it not send his instructor on a collection mission which is the cowardly thing to do. If anyone needs to "man up" it is the FBO owner.

And you folks here who attack this young man on a personal level for asking a perfectly reasonable question - have you no shame? To have uncertainty and go to an expert for advice (which is really what he is doing) should not be met with attacks on ones character. And leave the Bravo Sierra about folks needing a tough skin in your box of irrelevant platitudes where it belongs. He is not a politician, he is not a public figure, he is not an editorial writer. He is young pilot who asks a group of people whom he obviously respects for advice and gets attacked for doing so. I say it again - have you no shame?

Now don't wimp out and say that telling someone to take responsibility for their actions is not a personal attack. IT IS! By saying he should you are implying he has not done so and he obviously has. The question asked was not one about responsibility, it was whether or not he should be required to pay for the tire. Those are two different issues. And as you can see from the responses there is no consensus.

I would tell the FBO owner that I'm not paying, but I don't want him to have any concerns over the safety of his equipment and so I'll go rent somewhere else. The worst the FBO operator can do is sue and I don't think there is an honest judge anywhere in the world who wouldn't tell the FBO to go pound sand. Blown tires are a routine mtx item in a flight school.

You did not even read what he said did you? He admitted it was his fault, a "brain fart".

I messed up on my first landing...I locked the brakes pretty hard, and left a lot of rubber on the runway...one of the tires had the steel belt showing.
It was just a brain fart...I had gotten so used to doing touch and gos...that, combined with the stress of my first solo, and the fact that, for some reason, I was obsessed with turning off at the first taxiway...anyway...
 
Jeremy,

Did you note the remaining tread left on the tire? My opinion is that you should be able to negotiate based on expected tire life remaining. If wear was 1/4 of original or less at the time of your brake lockup, I think you should pay for a new one. 1/2 of original, you pay 1/2 for the new one. 3/4 worn out or more, they should pay for the new one. This would also adjust your compensation to parallel the seriousness of your flatspotting on the tire. Taking a new tire down to steel is more than a minor brake lockup. Taking an already bald tire to steel can be pretty minor, if it does not blow! My opinion anyway.

Rick
 
You did not even read what he said did you? He admitted it was his fault, a "brain fart".

I messed up on my first landing...I locked the brakes pretty hard, and left a lot of rubber on the runway...one of the tires had the steel belt showing.
It was just a brain fart...I had gotten so used to doing touch and gos...that, combined with the stress of my first solo, and the fact that, for some reason, I was obsessed with turning off at the first taxiway...anyway...

For some reason that's not good enough for folks on this board. They attack him and accuse him of being irresponsible? Frankly, he's probably shouldering more of the responsibility than is rightfully his and still people here at POA want to tell him he is irresponsible and to "man up." So he locked a brake, he's a student. Stuff happens. I wouldn't hold a student pilot to the same standard as a private or a commercial or an ATP in the air and I wouldn't do it on the ground either. Brain farts are part of learning.

There is something fundamentally unfair about heaping all the responsibility for a bad decision on a student pilot on their first solo. In a case as here where the FBO owner is too much of a coward to ask for the money himself or admit his instructor may have not done his job properly it seems to me that the rest of their operation is probably inadequate as well. I soloed people at short narrow fields and at long wide ones. If it was long enough to have an early turn off I told the students not to try to make it. It is the instructor's resposibility to anticipate the adverse events and warn against them. Maybe he did, maybe his last words upon leaving the aircraft were "don't try to make that first turn off." But as my 73 year old mother would say, I'd bet dollars to donuts they weren't.

Aviation is so willing to eat its young and then complains that there are too few student starts.
 
For some reason that's not good enough for folks on this board. They attack him and accuse him of being irresponsible? Frankly, he's probably shouldering more of the responsibility than is rightfully his and still people here at POA want to tell him he is irresponsible and to "man up." So he locked a brake, he's a student. Stuff happens. I wouldn't hold a student pilot to the same standard as a private or a commercial or an ATP in the air and I wouldn't do it on the ground either. Brain farts are part of learning.

There is something fundamentally unfair about heaping all the responsibility for a bad decision on a student pilot on their first solo. In a case as here where the FBO owner is too much of a coward to ask for the money himself or admit his instructor may have not done his job properly it seems to me that the rest of their operation is probably inadequate as well. I soloed people at short narrow fields and at long wide ones. If it was long enough to have an early turn off I told the students not to try to make it. It is the instructor's resposibility to anticipate the adverse events and warn against them. Maybe he did, maybe his last words upon leaving the aircraft were "don't try to make that first turn off." But as my 73 year old mother would say, I'd bet dollars to donuts they weren't.

Aviation is so willing to eat its young and then complains that there are too few student starts.

I have to agree with you. I have been on a lot of forums but the atmosphere here at times is a little rough. Now I have also met some very nice people but dang there are a few who I wish I had never heard from. After one of my first post on this board one guy did not like what I had to say so he wrote me a private message telling me I was gonna crash b/c I was stupid.
 
I think it's bad business for them to expect you to pay for the tire.

First tire.. warning.. if a repeat offender.. pay up..

I knew an FBO in ABI. Everytime they rented the C-182 to a local AF Colonel, they had to replace the tires. They replaced the tires, and required he get more dual, after the 3rd set they requested payment for the tires, and refused to rent to him any more.
 
Ah, the good ol' days: Waay back when, I was the proud owner (along with Mare Island Credit Union) of a 1974 Mustang II, with 2.8L V-6, and automatic transmission.
While stationed in Idaho Falls, I learned how to do the bootleg turn, and had lots of fun doing it (rich and single sailor, was I). One evening, on the just not quite right pavement, I tried the technique, and when the car didn't slew around quite quickly enough, I corrected and straightened out; didn't release the hand brake so it wouldn't grab and roll.
End result was me going back to the rental house, "thump-thump-thump..." Brand new Firestone Steel Radial 500s, too...:eek::rolleyes2:

Anywho, I traded it in on a Dart 4dor, vinyl top, cloth brocade interior, and factory air 318. Standard dull car.

Back to the subject at hand: Smart businesses know the customer is right, even if he's wrong (just as the guidon was right, even if he went the wrong way, and if we didn't follow him and went the right way, we got hammered for not following him).

Common sense mixed with context must come into play here. Thus I would personally go ahead and pay the Franklin, then not even bother explaining why I'm not renting; the FBO and CFI will figure it out based on the absence of income. They may then call, and that's where you could say, "look: I recognize I, as a dumb nugget messed up the tire, but an Air Hawk 6.00-60 is $60, and a new tube is $50; you fix your own tires, so that's factored in at $70.00 per hour, so I figger we're even; I paid a little over 50% of the total cost, and we're square. Now I don't want to ruin one of your tires again, so I decided to go to Bubba Gump's FBO and ruin his."

End of discussion. He'll get the gist of it, because he's lost the C-note rental, and the 3.5 Franklins per hour in instruction, as well as money going into his little greasy spoon--not to mention a relationship that may have flourished when you could finally afford to have him fix the plane you bought when you became a rich pilot like us B):cornut:.
 
Among the things you are paying that school to teach you is to take responsibility for your actions.

Sounds like you are in some denial. You are not denying you caused the problem, nevertheless, you are denying responsibility for the expense.

This comment is for anyone who has questioned Jeremy's "motivation" or "intent" for posting this question.

Wow!! You are basing so much of your beliefs about Jeremy's motivation or intent for asking a questions on SO MANY assumptions. Now, if you would have said something like, "Gee, Jeremy, by what you say I wonder if you're in denial here about your responsibility...is that true or at least partially true?...then he can answer for himself...but to speak for him in my book is totally rude and disrespectful to him.

As far as answering the question, I agree with those who say look at the quality of the tire to determine how much responsibility is yours to take and how much is the owner's...if you can't come to an agreement, be willing to pay the $100.00 and then decide if you are comfortable renting from that person/company again. If not, go elsewhere.
 
For some reason that's not good enough for folks on this board. They attack him and accuse him of being irresponsible? Frankly, he's probably shouldering more of the responsibility than is rightfully his and still people here at POA want to tell him he is irresponsible and to "man up." So he locked a brake, he's a student. Stuff happens. I wouldn't hold a student pilot to the same standard as a private or a commercial or an ATP in the air and I wouldn't do it on the ground either. Brain farts are part of learning.

There is something fundamentally unfair about heaping all the responsibility for a bad decision on a student pilot on their first solo. In a case as here where the FBO owner is too much of a coward to ask for the money himself or admit his instructor may have not done his job properly it seems to me that the rest of their operation is probably inadequate as well. I soloed people at short narrow fields and at long wide ones. If it was long enough to have an early turn off I told the students not to try to make it. It is the instructor's resposibility to anticipate the adverse events and warn against them. Maybe he did, maybe his last words upon leaving the aircraft were "don't try to make that first turn off." But as my 73 year old mother would say, I'd bet dollars to donuts they weren't.

Aviation is so willing to eat its young and then complains that there are too few student starts.

Both quotes well stated, Arnold.
 
If that plane was one you borrowed from a friend would you leave the tire like that?
Id hope not. Put this into its true perspective as others above have advised.

my advise...look at the tire and buy it yourself
http://www.desser.com/ give it to them for next time they need a tire. might save a few $$ if thats what is bothering you.

schools expect and rate for warped brake disk..brake pads gone overnight as students ride brakes during taxi...etc...but a smoked tire is more rare.
 
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Premature replacement of expendables is a cost of doing business in the rental fleet. They should factor this into their wet rental rates, not to mention to 60% cut they are taking from the "instructional fee".

Unless you have a contractual obligation to cover the cost of the tire, and they can PROVE it was acceptable before you flew it and unacceptable after you flew it, then they have no leg to stand on.

This is a $100 charge over the course of spending many many thousands of dollars in your potential future with them... Likewise, asking your instructor to be the one to pass this "charge" on to you.. it should be the owner or the manager making such a request directly, not passing it off for an indirect delivery.
 
Premature replacement of expendables is a cost of doing business in the rental fleet. They should factor this into their wet rental rates, not to mention to 60% cut they are taking from the "instructional fee".

Unless you have a contractual obligation to cover the cost of the tire, and they can PROVE it was acceptable before you flew it and unacceptable after you flew it, then they have no leg to stand on.

This is a $100 charge over the course of spending many many thousands of dollars in your potential future with them... Likewise, asking your instructor to be the one to pass this "charge" on to you.. it should be the owner or the manager making such a request directly, not passing it off for an indirect delivery.
Well, the fact that he took off with it can be considered proof that it was acceptable before the flight, since he accepted it! And it appears that it has already been admitted that it was not airworthy after the flight. And the "60% cut" coves an awful lot of stuff, from office space and scheduling to insurance!
 
$100... heck just be thankful they didn't escort you to get your drug testing done, and called the FAA so you can get a 709 ride :wink2: (this only makes sense if you read the red board...)

the morality here is completely dictated by the contract between you and the flight school, if it says you pay for damages like these then pay, if not then don't pay. It seems to me that your expectation that you were paying an extra $2.50/hr for insurance just for this sort of incident is a fair one, just like if I crash a car after paying for the LDW I don't expect to pay anything else...
-Henri
 
Okay, just a pet peeve of mine, was I the only one that learned the $ goes before the number? :wink2:

Arnold - Very well stated and it definitely HAD to be said.
Dennyleeb - dont you just love human nature?

To err is to be Human, it is not reasonable to expect the OP to be a UAV. It is my belief that landing is the hardest maneuver out there, it is reasonable for there to be a mistake. Doesn't it say somewhere in the FAR's who is financially responsible for the aircraft?

When do you become a real pilot and responsible for what you do with your airplane, whether you own, rent, or are paid to fly?

Uhh Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Become a REAL pilot???!?!? Thats no better than saying sport pilots are not pilots or gliders are not planes, just ridiculous. Blatantly insulting student pilots hits a little close to home for me eh, even if I'm not your typical student pilot. Still... not cool.
 
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Peggy: Your comments are unduely harsh and I agree with Nick's evaluation of your statement. You shouldn't be scolding a student pilot for asking a good question. A student pilot may still be a pilot, but he or she is first a foremost a student. You want to encourage students to ask questions, and your response discouraged it. This goes for anyone else who offered similar comments, but yours were the harshest and I think the most off base. Honestly, I am surprised. Normally you're very kind to newcomers who ask questions.

OP: You ask a good question. Aviation is a different world from most others I've been in, and so the proper rules of engagement I've found are different from other realms. Among the lessons you will have undoubtedly learned from this experience is to watch what you ask in this forum. I've stopped asking certain types of questions and telling certain stories. Sorry that you had to learn this the hard way. As far as the tire is concerned, I'm conflicted. If I owned the plane, I wouldn't ask the student to pay for it, so I don't think they should ask you to pay for it. But if I were the student, I'd offer to pay for it, unless I felt that the company I was renting from was trying to screw me over in general. For the planes I rented during my private and instrument, I'd be very unlikely to want to pay for anything simply because I heavily dislike the management. However when I was flying the Mooney (that I was renting from a friend), I once lost the gas cap on it. We found it, but I was fully prepared to shell out the money for a new one, and would have shelled out the money for pretty much anything that broke while I was using the plane, simply because they were so good to me.

There are good arguments both ways. I would say it's a business decision. Evaluate your relationship with the flight school and whatever you feel you should or should not pay, go with it and fight accordingly.
 
During my first solo, I messed up on my first landing...I locked the brakes pretty hard, and left a lot of rubber on the runway...one of the tires had the steel belt showing.

Just stepping outside the box here, but maybe the FBO owner is putting your instructor on the hook for letting you solo before you were ready. I am not suggesting you aren't cabable. I am suggesting that a few more stop and go landings and a few less touch and goes would have given you better experience.

I wouldn't pay for it. I wouldn't offer a prorated portion. I wouldn't offer to install it. I wouldn't rent from them again.

However, if I had rented from a friend I would gladly pay for and offer to install the new rubber....probably both sides.
 
All I can say is "Wow!".

You did the damage and admitted it ... work a payment with the school.

There was a student here that did exactly the same recently. He bought the tire ... the school put it on display with the student's name on it right at the front desk:eek: (That was uncalled for in my opinion ... note to self, if you buy the tire take it with you). Luckily I own my own plane and never had that happen.

Rentals get flown pretty hard and are usually never leaned correctly for taxi requiring a fouled plug burn off at the run-up area or whatever the previous student ignored during pre-flight. Pretend it's your plane and fly it that way, the owners will appreciate it and maybe cut you some slack on a ride later on.
 
It's a fruuukin tire, not the Hope Diamond. Jeez. Next thing you know the FBO will charge him for idling on the taxiway, not just time spent in the air!

Wait -- that's exactly what they do with a Hobbs meter. Who's screwin' who???
 
This has been an interesting thread. Clearly the OP took an airworthy tire and rendered it unairworthy by his actions, and he seems to understand that.

I think that the $100 fee is a fair value of the "damage" his actions caused - early replacement of the tire before it's service life would have taken it out with normal wear and tear.

So, to the OP, yes, I think you're off base. You made an error when you locked up the wheels. Fortunately all your error cost you was $100.00. That's a REALLY CHEAP mistake in aviation. Consider the many-thousand-hour pilot who did the SAME THING at Reagan National recently, except he was in a Stearman and is looking at a much bigger bill.
 
So, to the OP, yes, I think you're off base. You made an error when you locked up the wheels. Fortunately all your error cost you was $100.00. That's a REALLY CHEAP mistake in aviation. Consider the many-thousand-hour pilot who did the SAME THING at Reagan National recently, except he was in a Stearman and is looking at a much bigger bill.
Was it really the pilot and not the reporter passenger?:hairraise: I hadn't heard that!
 
This has been an interesting thread. Clearly the OP took an airworthy tire and rendered it unairworthy by his actions, and he seems to understand that.

I think that the $100 fee is a fair value of the "damage" his actions caused - early replacement of the tire before it's service life would have taken it out with normal wear and tear.

So, to the OP, yes, I think you're off base. You made an error when you locked up the wheels. Fortunately all your error cost you was $100.00. That's a REALLY CHEAP mistake in aviation. Consider the many-thousand-hour pilot who did the SAME THING at Reagan National recently, except he was in a Stearman and is looking at a much bigger bill.

Was it really the pilot and not the reporter passenger?:hairraise: I hadn't heard that!
It was the reporter/passenger. He has admitted it. There are those who fault the pilot for not aborting the landing when he realized the wheels were locked. I think that'd be real difficult to do, tho.

I've seen a lot of these brakes on landing issues. Did it myself once with nearly new tires. Bald spots - 2 more new tires. Recently a pilot locked the brakes on landing and took out some taxi lights. Cost him a few hours of remedial training and a 709 ride. This past winter a Bonanza (I think) landed on wet ice, hit the brakes, slid sideways into a snowbank. Bought new retract nosewheel, prop, engine teardown. Don't know whether he had to take remedial. I saw the result of a student pilot first solo where she began a touch-n-go until her instructor shouted over the radio that it should be a full stop. She hit the brakes, lost control, went down an embankment. Prop bent, firewall bent, 4 feet of wing lost. She did complete her training. My friend bought into a share on a Luscombe. He landed while I was on downwind. Hit the brakes instead of the rudder, flipped onto its back. Total loss. Friend earned a 709 ride but instead, never flew again.
 
Interesting thread. I just found it. Lot of extreme positions on both sides.

Our flying club has the policy if damage is the pilot's fault he/she is responsible up to the deductible. We consider flat spots damage that is the pilot's fault. I don't remember a student pilot early in the solo phase smoking a tire so I'm not sure if we'd eat the cost or not, but the SOP is to charge the pilot.

We do use the %tread remaining method to determine their responsibility.

This policy is consistent with other plane rental policies in our area. I would suggest you ask your new flight school how they handle such incidents. I'd be surprised if they are any different.

Again, since it was a first solo, it is different. I'd have a discussion with the CFI and there would be at least some shared responsibility. I stop doing touch and goes a few flights before the first solo because I don't like changes on that first solo.

Joe
 
So, to the OP, yes, I think you're off base. You made an error when you locked up the wheels. Fortunately all your error cost you was $100.00. That's a REALLY CHEAP mistake in aviation.

I offer no opinion except to comment to Jeremy, "It could have been worse.," though this was not a result of my first solo. (And it was(is) my airplane)

HR
 

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Where I am at, I am already driving 30 miles to the nearest flight school...there are several others with comparable prices within the same distance.

As far as the wear...wouldn't the 10,000 hull insurance I payed for cover it?

I just really feel like this guy is trying to take advantage of me.

Tires aren't covered by insurance except under vandalism, theft and fire. Otherwise they are "wear and tear" items. You tore up a tire, it was your mistake, pay the $100 and sin no more.
 
It was the reporter/passenger. He has admitted it. There are those who fault the pilot for not aborting the landing when he realized the wheels were locked. I think that'd be real difficult to do, tho.

If you are at the proper level of energy for a landing and touch down with a locked brake on dry pavement, you will not be able to take off again. If he had a 1340 on it then maybe, just maybe if he was expecting it and did everything right, preferably off of moist grass, he could get it back in the air, but not necessarily.
 
Jerry, that looks like it probably just :eek:buffed right out....
 
So here are the pics of the tire I killed
Pic one shows the undamaged side
Pic two shows what I did to it

Lesson definately learned:eek:




7456-Picture004.jpg


7456-Picture005.jpg
 
Boy, those pictures also make me realize that pulling the plane forward a foot or two after checking the tires to check the rest of the tire would be a really good practice. If that flat spot was down on the pavement, not sure I'd notice... until I started moving!
 
Boy, those pictures also make me realize that pulling the plane forward a foot or two after checking the tires to check the rest of the tire would be a really good practice. If that flat spot was down on the pavement, not sure I'd notice... until I started moving!

Only if I have been renting from your FBO:D
j/k...you make a good point.
 
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