Am I the last naive moron out there?

Ravioli's True Story Time: (not humorous though)

I had a guy knock on my door and offer to mulch my flowerbeds with "some extra material" he had from another job "in the neighborhood."

I made the mistake of not calling the other guy in the neighborhood, or even driving over to see how he did.

Fast forward. I got ripped for about $800.

This 'person' was not Hispanic.

Lesson learned, never again.
 
James331 said:
Let them finish THEN report them? That’s some next level messed up crap right there.


Illegals are a big $$ industry with lots of marketing, long and short lots of goverment folks would be unemployed and gov departments and publicly paid private sectors corps no longer needed if we actually stopped illegals with a few basic banking/public service/etc policy changes, something much poorer counties who can’t afford ICE, Black Hawks, big pensions etc do, buuuuuut we don’t, too many government workers and lobbyists benefit from illegals, they found a way to make money and jobs off the mere presence of the poorest of the poor, so I have a hard time getting too bent out of shape over some illegal, the system on the other hand that both encourages him to sneak in, while making money on putting on a show to keep him out, that’s another story.

Again I’d just worry about the quality and price of the roof job, if that’s to spec be happy, and maybe find a hobby to better occupy your time.
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So if I have to take extra days off and change all my plans around 3 times, and have a house with no shingles for 5 days because these guys walked off the job because they aren't legal, I should just be happy about it as long as someday it gets done with high quality? Nope. Try again.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Your homeowners insurance will pay for tarps and other associated supplies if you want to secure the roof until proper labor is used or a new contractor is hired.
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Yeah, see how you like that idea when it's your house.
 
You can complain to me about this when your house burns down and you have to couch surf for 9 months, while you argue with the insurance company over what they are trying to get out of paying.
 
Not that it's really relevant to my question, for those interested, the border patrol truck didn't even stop here, they drove down the street and back (dead end) and left.
 
Personally I would rather have the hispanics than the white guys in those lines of work. Been working in the trades for 20 years now, these days clean cut white guys do not exist in those lines unless you are willing to REALLY pay for it. Very few people are.

You hired a big and reputable name, they should have the insurance to deal with a hiccup.

Exposing your home to weather is a valid concern, I am assuming they at least have paper down? Either way, this is not their first rodeo.
 
cowman said:
Why would you have to pay workers comp to someone working for a company you hired? Wouldn't the workers comp be on the employer?

Even if there was a lawsuit isn't this kind of thing why we carry homeowners insurance? So we don't have to obsess over it?
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In our state, until a few years ago, if you hired a contractor to work on your home and you failed to get a certificate of workers compensatio, you were on the hook for work comp benefits in case of injury. Now homeowners contracting for work on their own residence are excluded from that obligation.
 
Salty said:
Yeah, see how you like that idea when it's your house.
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I'm not saying you have to "like the idea", I'm suggesting if having an unfinished roof truly concerns you so much, go to HF and pick up some tarps to secure the roof until the roof can be completed per your specifications. You insurance company will often comp you for the materials since it helps combat an expensive claim.
 
Thanks again for all the perspectives. An interesting but undesired scenario I never thought I'd have to deal with. Things are getting even more complicated after talking to the building inspector that just stopped by and the owner of the roofing company. I'm not going to go into further detail at this point. But I do appreciate the insights provided. I don't think the property is at risk at this point, we'll figure out a reasonable approach to resolve from here, though I literally have no idea what that is going to be exactly.
 
Salty said:
So if I have to take extra days off and change all my plans around 3 times, and have a house with no shingles for 5 days because these guys walked off the job because they aren't legal, I should just be happy about it as long as someday it gets done with high quality? Nope. Try again.
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This is valid and something they should make right by you.

The status of their people not so much

But I'm a simple ends results kinda guy.
 
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Ravioli said:
He didn't say US born, he said Legal Workers. There's a huge difference.
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Not in my area. The legals are engineers. The illegals put up roofs and serve up deluxe Mexican food.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Not in my area. The legals are engineers. The illegals put up roofs and serve up deluxe Mexican food.
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Always said I’m not racist, except for my food.

If I walk in to a place for a carne asida burrito and I see a white ginger in the kitchen, noooope, I mean when you’ve probably never been raised with the flavors, or even been south of Indiana shy of spring break, you don’t even know what it’s sposed to taste like, let alone could make a traditional real Mexican salsa from scratch lol
 
Around New England, the French Canadians have the Drywall business locked up, and have driven most of the non-union contractors out of business because their prices are so low.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Around New England, the French Canadians have the Drywall business locked up, and have driven most of the non-union contractors out of business because their prices are so low.

-Skip
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So they know some amish eh?
 
Salty said:
1. I thought there were laws against hiring illegals. Again, maybe I'm just a naive moron.
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Typically, when these people are hired, they present apparently valid documents justifying their right to lawfully work (for example, Social Security card, drivers license or "Green Card"); it is unlawful to knowingly hire someone who is not legally entitled to work here, but you cannot simply look at someone who is presented apparently valid documents, and decide they're not really valid because (for example) they only speak Spanish. That would be both unlawful (in itself), and ineffective.

Salty said:
2. How can these guys be licensed, insured, etc if they aren't legal.
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I strongly doubt that the state asks about immigration status when granting contractor licenses (are roofers even licensed in Florida? They are not in Texas). Likewise, insurance carriers and agents are certainly not going to start delving into that kind of information, because to do so would simply expose them to liability for possible claims of discrimination.

Salty said:
3. I have to allow them to work on the weekend when my neighbors are not expecting construction to occur.
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That's the market we are in; contractors are not particularly hungry for work, because most of them are both (1) busier than they have ever been, and (2) struggling to find sufficient warm bodies to perform the work.

cowman said:
Why would you have to pay workers comp to someone working for a company you hired? Wouldn't the workers comp be on the employer?
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Quick question: how many of you (the collective you), when you are hiring a contractor to perform work at your home, do any of the following?

1. Verify that the contractor has workers compensation insurance for all of its employees;
2. Verify that the contractor carries Commercial General Liability Insurance;
3. Require that the Contractor, in the contract for the improvements, agree to indemnify and hold you harmless of and from any claims arising out of the performance of work at your home; and
4. Require that the Contractor provide you a Certificate of Insurance, in which you are a NAMED INSURED, and including a Contractual Liability Endorsement?

Reality is, few people do these things, and few but the most scrupulous residential contractors will take the steps without you compelling them to do so. In fact, in my experience, probably 80% of the residential remodeling/repair contractors out there carry very little insurance, and they accomplished risk control by ensuring that the entity (Corporation, LLC, whatever) has very few assets, so that in the event of a catastrophic event, they can simply bankruptcy entity and move on.

cowman said:
Even if there was a lawsuit isn't this kind of thing why we carry homeowners insurance? So we don't have to obsess over it?
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Does your homeowner's insurance cover this? Not all do, and your limits may not be sufficient to protect you, anyway.
 
The bottom-line problem, of course, is that in the currently-booming economy (and yes, it is booming), in most parts of the country, everyone who wants a job, everyone who truly desires to work, is working. Immigrants who are working (legal or not) are not simply doing so cheaply (at least not in a place I am aware of); their working for a pretty darned good wages, usually with benefits as well, and they're getting the work because they are willing to work, and their showing up.
 
I would think knowing what you know about the contractors hiring practices and the fact that he will be working in your neighborhood on the weekend you may be able to negotiate a lower price.
 
texasclouds said:
You don’t want white roofers, they are all on meth. Just let these hombres finish.
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Sad but true, shy of a union and or pervaling wage kinda deal.

For those up north, amish are a great deal.
 
Bacho said:
Personally I would rather have the hispanics than the white guys in those lines of work. Been working in the trades for 20 years now, these days clean cut white guys do not exist in those lines unless you are willing to REALLY pay for it. Very few people are.
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texasclouds said:
You don’t want white roofers, they are all on meth. Just let these hombres finish.
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So true. Around here, the a very large amount of white construction workers are either on drugs or have a drug history. And illegal Hispanics are hard to find. As a result, construction is impossible to schedule. We have three exterior doors sitting in my garage that we have been waiting since last fall to have installed. Two of them I could do myself as there is a door already there so it's roughed in, but then I have to worry about it being level etc etc etc. The third one involves cutting a hole in my siding and properly roughing it...nope. Not doing that.
 
Salty said:
So, I hired a local reputable roofing company to have my roof replaced. They sent only 3 guys to reroof a 2700 sq foot house, 3 car garage, and 2500 square foot hangar...... That was my first problem. I didn't make a fuss, probably should have in retrospect. The crew was working hard and going fast for only 3 guys.

Today, I'm standing outside watching the shingles finally get loaded on the roof and an immigration truck drives by. 20 seconds later the roofing crew is driving away down the road....

I call the roofer all ****ed off and he says "a white crew won't work on a roof with that pitch, all we had was those 3 and 2 don't have papers". Admits it flat out. They aren't coming back today or tomorrow, they want to work Sat and Sun because immigration won't be around.

Am I just being naive in getting ****ed off at this company for putting me in this situation? Neither of my roofs have shingles and my only choice to get them up there is to let illegals do it on the weekend and **** off all my neighbors.
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The fine for using illegal workers is $500. That is why this happens.
 
texasclouds said:
You don’t want white roofers, they are all on meth. Just let these hombres finish.
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No... Meth is for drywall hangers. Budweiser is for roofers. Pot is for framers. Painters... they like to spray without a mask, if you know what I'm saying.
 
Ravioli said:
I had a guy knock on my door and offer to mulch my flowerbeds with "some extra material" he had from another job "in the neighborhood."
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Oldest contractor scam in the book. :yesnod:

texasclouds said:
You don’t want white roofers, they are all on meth. Just let these hombres finish.
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Funny story... before I sold my home and moved up here to CO, I put a new roof on my home. I hired the same crew that did my neighbor's roof. I watched them roof his house and they did an excellent job. All mexicans! When it came time to roof my home, I noticed they had a "white boy" on their crew. I watched this dude like a hawk as I could tell he was suffering from the heroin shakes and thusly kept my garage door closed so he couldn't steal anything. The guy mostly just walked around in circles picking up trash here and there and handing supplies to the 4 mexican guys that were doing all the actual work. The head mexican could speak broken english enough that I could understand him. I asked him about his "gringo" and he said he probably wouldn't last very long as he couldn't/wouldn't do the work. For any roofing, flooring, landscaping, painting, or anything else related to home maintenance I'd hire a crew of legal/illegal mexicans any day of the week before I'd hire a crew of white guys.
 
The white kids are just stupid. Not lazy, stupid. I pay per stall for barn work. The Mexicans come through like Grant took Richmond and make roughly $50 an hour. In thirty years I had one white kid that got it, the rest stood around and bitched about how they can't make any money at this job. Now, they don't even come up the lane.

I once hired some white guys from a halfway house to stack hay. I thought I literally killed one; he lay down, turned sheet white. I thought he was done. The hot-shot athletes from the local high-school football team lasted about two hours. The farm labor situation got such that I mechanized. Now I hardly have to touch a bale by hand unless it falls off the wagon.

If they aren't real farm boys or Mexicans, I don't want them.
 
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Chip Sylverne said:
The white kids are just stupid. Not lazy, stupid. I pay per stall for barn work. The Mexicans come through like Grant took Richmond and make roughly $50 an hour. In thirty years I had one white kid that got it, the rest stood around and bitched about how they can't make any money at this job. Now, they don't even come up the lane.

I once hired some white guys from a halfway house to stack hay. I thought I literally killed one; he lay down, turned sheet white. I thought he was done. The hot-shot athletes from the local high-school football team lasted about two hours. The farm labor situation got such that I mechanized. Now I hardly have to touch a bale by hand unless it falls off the wagon.

If they aren't real farm boys or Mexicans, I don't want them.
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Dont think its lack of intellect, it reminds me of a scifi movie a little ways back where there was a disease on earth were everyone just stopped caring about EVERYTHING, no passion, no motivation, no drive, or hunger like ambition, it's cool now to be "content".

Look up FIRE, its a bunch of suburb kids who became successful 30 somethings who live like quasi bums, make good money only to stock pile tons of money at the expense of lifestyle, end up with like 1M, invest in stable stuff like indexed funds, and then "retire" living off that 4 percent or so, they more or less aim for a one household family living off like 25-30k a year, basically they take all that smarts and potential, spend tons of effort and live with the same type of lifestyle as someone who would be living off wic,food stamps and the like.

Seems this trend of being "content" comes in a few flavors, another is just being cool making low wages all your life, which is a more long term active version of the above.

Maybe its because there is no great war, no space race, nothing that motivates like that, this generation doesn't have anything bigger than them, and with siri answering any and all random questions, youtube, and cheap readily available stores like amazon and walmart, plus modern healthcare and more and more socialized stuff, we all as a society actually can just set our lives to a boring 35mph and hit cruise control and go for "content" and shy of a large scale event, there ya go.

My opinion on FIRE and the lack of raw ambition today, well think our fellow pilot Travolta summed it up pretty well in pulp fiction.

 
Now that you have knowledge of their status, moral and legal obligations might be at odds, depending on your philosophies.

The owner needs to man-up and get that roof covered, regardless of cost to him - again legal and moral may not mesh, depending on your philosophies.

It’s a big deal, and speaks to our (my) beliefs and what we (I) stand for...no clear cut easy answer when it’s this close to home (no pun).
 
I wouldn't worry about anything besides rain.

I'm not saying this contractor is, but the burden of illegality and the staunchness of punishment needs to fall on those employers that purposefully hire people they know do not have the legal status to work in the US and then underpay them. The blame is often put entirely on the worker while the employer gets a handslap, a "don't do that again", and a wink from sheriff if even that...

I agree with the comment that it's not impossible they have legal status but are simply scared of or don't want the hassle of dealing with being treated guilty till proven innocent. City near me just referred a guy to ICE, he had his US passport in his personal effects when arrested (A vet with severe PTSD), he ended up detained for days in immigration- as a US citizen...

Coming from a guy that roofed in his younger days: Set a big coffee pot for Saturday morning and grab a dozen donuts... Folks that treated us like that often got an extra extra mile done for them... We worked in a very affluent area and many folks couldn't hide the fact they thought we were second class, even if they tried (No I'm not saying this is you)- their job got done and done well but nothing extra.
 
If you hire the 'reputable company' with the statewide TV ads, they sub the job to 'Billibobs roofing llc' who is the guy who comes out with the samples, signs the contract with you and deals with your insurance adjuster. He buys the material from ABC using a PO from 'reputable company' with crane delivery to the worksite. Billibob now subs with 'JCS13,LLC' for the crew. JCS stands for Joses Crewing Service and 13 is just the running number for that crew. JCS13 has an employer ID and is the entity that employs the roofers. Billibob doesn't 'hire roofers', he contracts with JCS for roofing on a 'per square' basis. When Jose hires, he uses the services of 'Nelson' who brings him workers and provides Jose genuine enough looking copies of employment authorization cards and TPS documents for his Honduran workers. The cards match well enough to the guys Nelson brings and so Jose is insulated from criminal liability under the safe harbor provisions in the INA. Towards the end of roofing season, JCS13 gets a stack of 'no match' letters from social security and so the EIN gets retired and Jose registers JCS14,LLC to cover the next season. He goes back to Nelson to hire new workers. The same workers will show up, they may now have different names on the paperwork in Joses file......

Everyone gets paid and your roof gets covered. What are you complaining about ?
 
weilke said:
If you hire the 'reputable company' with the statewide TV ads, they sub the job to 'Billibobs roofing llc' who is the guy who comes out with the samples, signs the contract with you and deals with your insurance adjuster. He buys the material from ABC using a PO from 'reputable company' with crane delivery to the worksite. Billibob now subs with 'JCS13,LLC' for the crew. JCS stands for Joses Crewing Service and 13 is just the running number for that crew. JCS13 has an employer ID and is the entity that employs the roofers. Billibob doesn't 'hire roofers', he contracts with JCS for roofing on a 'per square' basis. When Jose hires, he uses the services of 'Nelson' who brings him workers and provides Jose genuine enough looking copies of employment authorization cards and TPS documents for his Honduran workers. The cards match well enough to the guys Nelson brings and so Jose is insulated from criminal liability under the safe harbor provisions in the INA. Towards the end of roofing season, JCS13 gets a stack of 'no match' letters from social security and so the EIN gets retired and Jose registers JCS14,LLC to cover the next season. He goes back to Nelson to hire new workers. The same workers will show up, they may now have different names on the paperwork in Joses file......

Everyone gets paid and your roof gets covered. What are you complaining about ?
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My roof didn’t get covered because they walked off the job. That’s what.
 
Salty said:
My roof didn’t get covered because they walked off the job. That’s what.
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Bummer if that pesky government tries to enforce their 'laws'.


Your episode is a good illustration of how illegal immigration is not a victimless crime. The contractors who use that staffing model have driven down the prices keeping those with documented staff out of the residential market. There are customers like the government that require their subs to use e-verify and provide documentation and IDs for everyone on the site. But they dont work at the cut rates that insurance companies and residential customers want to see.
 
weilke said:
Bummer if that pesky government tries to enforce their 'laws'.


Your episode is a good illustration of how illegal immigration is not a victimless crime. The contractors who use that staffing model have driven down the prices keeping those with documented staff out of the residential market. There are customers like the government that require their subs to use e-verify and provide documentation and IDs for everyone on the site. But they dont work at the cut rates that insurance companies and residential customers want to see.
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I could have paid less if I went with an under the table deal that used illegals. I didn’t do that because I didn’t want to hire illegals and have these types of problems.

One of my neighbors went that way and it took forever to get his house done because they kept disappearing every time a suspicious looking vehicle drove by. But He didn’t care because he’s a cheap bas**** and wanted cheap labor.

I thought I was avoiding that by spending more. Guess not.
 
James331 said:
Dont think its lack of intellect, it reminds me of a scifi movie a little ways back where there was a disease on earth were everyone just stopped caring about EVERYTHING, no passion, no motivation, no drive, or hunger like ambition, it's cool now to be "content".

Look up FIRE, its a bunch of suburb kids who became successful 30 somethings who live like quasi bums, make good money only to stock pile tons of money at the expense of lifestyle, end up with like 1M, invest in stable stuff like indexed funds, and then "retire" living off that 4 percent or so, they more or less aim for a one household family living off like 25-30k a year, basically they take all that smarts and potential, spend tons of effort and live with the same type of lifestyle as someone who would be living off wic,food stamps and the like.

Seems this trend of being "content" comes in a few flavors, another is just being cool making low wages all your life, which is a more long term active version of the above.

Maybe its because there is no great war, no space race, nothing that motivates like that, this generation doesn't have anything bigger than them, and with siri answering any and all random questions, youtube, and cheap readily available stores like amazon and walmart, plus modern healthcare and more and more socialized stuff, we all as a society actually can just set our lives to a boring 35mph and hit cruise control and go for "content" and shy of a large scale event, there ya go.

My opinion on FIRE and the lack of raw ambition today, well think our fellow pilot Travolta summed it up pretty well in pulp fiction.

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Maybe, James, I don't know. That would indicate valuing one's personal time spent in private pursuits vs. time spent earning money for "The Man". On a certain level I can understand. I gave up a very lucrative career to be a farmer. But if that were the case, these kids would spend one hour actually working and get a good return on their time instead of spending five standing around and bitching for a relative pittance.
 
Salty said:
"a white crew won't work on a roof with that pitch
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I think he meant to say "a white crew won't work on that roof, for the same hourly rate." Hopefully a call to your insurance company doesn't become necessary.
 
Apparently none of you have lived in (or near) a town where Tyson has an operation (pork or chicken). Or near an orchard, or near a tomato farm or garlic farm or almost any farm.

If it weren't for Hispanics, there wouldn't be much food in the grocery store. Meat, fruit or vegetables.

And construction is no different. On the last project I was involved with, a holiday inn express, over 50% of the workers were Hispanic.

Percentage of illegals in any above case? Don't know and don't care as long as they do the job.

Well, except for Tyson, their business methods are well documented.
 
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Matthew said:
I don't know how all the laws work - but what if one of those guys fell off your roof? Is the roofing company's Worker's Comp covering him if he's illegal? Or are you and your insurance company going to have to pony up?
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That was my question too... By the way... I don't believe no company has "white guys" or any other ethnicity that will shingle your roof... Pitch? Is every house in your community with a high pitch roof being done by illegals? If you paid in advance... Guess you're stuck... If not... don't pay a dime and find somebody else... They've got to be out there somewhere... maybe neighboring town? IDK... ...(not saying you're lying about any of this) just sounds a little weird....
 
FlySince9 said:
That was my question too... By the way... I don't believe no company has "white guys" or any other ethnicity that will shingle your roof... Pitch? Is every house in your community with a high pitch roof being done by illegals? If you paid in advance... Guess you're stuck... If not... don't pay a dime and find somebody else... They've got to be out there somewhere... maybe neighboring town? IDK... ...(not saying you're lying about any of this) just sounds a little weird....
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BS excuses given by a contractor usually do sound a little weird to normal people, but that’s what the owner of the company told me. It is significantly steeper than most roofs, but not as steep as some. I won’t walk on my house roof, but my hangar isn’t as bad and I do go up on it.
 
timwinters said:
Apparently none of you have lived in (or near) a town where Tyson has an operation (port or chicken). Or near an orchard, or near a tomato farm or garlic farm or almost any farm.

If it weren't for Hispanics, there wouldn't be much food in the grocery store. Meat, fruit or vegetables.

And construction is no different. On the last project I was involved with, a holiday inn express, over 50% of the workers were Hispanic.

Percentage of illegals in any above case? Don't know and don't care as long as they do the job.

Well, except for Tyson, their business methods are well documented.
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When I was a kid there would be families that would get some sort of visa for the harvest. They stayed long enough to finish harvesting everything, then go back south and live off their earnings until the next fall. Same farmers would hire the same immigrant families for years.
 
Raymo said:
I think he meant to say "a white crew won't work on that roof, for the same hourly rate." Hopefully a call to your insurance company doesn't become necessary.
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Maybe that’s the truth, but that’s not what he said. He said he could get another crew to do the hangar if I wanted, but not the house because of the pitch.
 
Salty, I like the way you think. It's refreshing to see someone honorable and trying to do the right thing.

After we were destroyed by Hurricane Harvey, we had two sets of contractors here, working 7 days a week, for 5 months. I made sure that my contractor was on top of the legalities of her workers. It was a chore, and it was obvious that most people didn't care.

But I did. We have owned hotels for 17 years, and have never hired an illegal. We are almost alone in that attitude, with most of the chains and all of the Patels not caring one bit about little things like "laws" -- but I believe in putting my money where my mouth is.

I spent $660,000 rebuilding, and worked 200 straight 12 hour days unpaid along side the contractors. I'll be damned if if I was going to reward anyone breaking the law to benefit from my situation.

And, yes -- contact your insurance. They will get someone to come out and tarp your roof. Don't be surprised if they're illegals.
 
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